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  »  New  Living Voice Loudspeaker..  A Polish Infomercial from Kevin Scott....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     80  438787  08-09-2009
01-03-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Newtohorn
Posts 5
Joined on 01-03-2018

Post #: 1
Post ID: 24619
Reply to: 24619
How difficult is it to achieve Vox Olympian sound
I have long followed posts in this forum and wondered what the ultimate horn system sounds like.  I have always liked certain attributes about the horn systems I have heard (Trios, Cessaro, Acapella, Altec, the usual suspects) but never to the point of considering going down this path.  I have listened to the Olympian the other day and things were clicking.  My question is, especially for those that have heard the Olympian, is the sound like that what you all are getting with your customized horn system?  It's not that I find the Olympian sound to be the ultimate, but I think it is something I want to pursue and can tweak to my likings.  The second best system I heard was the Trios but it did not light the fire inside to pursue it like the Olympian did.  Thanks in advanced for all feedbacks.
01-03-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 24620
Reply to: 24619
It is hard to explain if you did experiment with loudspeakers
 Newtohorn wrote:
I have long followed posts in this forum and wondered what the ultimate horn system sounds like.

I would say that a properly designed horn system compare to other speakers topologies should have higher total dynamic range, lower compression and less distortion rising with volume. Also it should be free from many of horns own problems, and there are many of these…
 
 Newtohorn wrote:
I have listened to the Olympian the other day and things were clicking.  

What specifically clicked to you with Olympian? It is very important ti identify it for yourself, otherwise you will be for years hinting windmills and so many people do.
 Newtohorn wrote:
My question is, especially for those that have heard the Olympian, is the sound like that what you all are getting with your customized horn system?  It's not that I find the Olympian sound to be the ultimate, but I think it is something I want to pursue and can tweak to my likings.  The second best system I heard was the Trios but it did not light the fire inside to pursue it like the Olympian did.  Thanks in advanced for all feedbacks.

 
Nope, Olympian does not sound like most of the customized horn system. If you knew to horns it would be hard to me to explain to you. You will take the same horns and drivers as Olympian has and you will not get the sound that attracted you in Olympian. Olympian generally is better sounding then they should and in a way define the topological rational. In a way Olympian sound like any other “authorship” loudspeakers. Kevin put some own ideas and own some preference in his sound and you heard it. Most of the manufactures have no own sonic preferences and only make their products to reflect topological advancements/disadvancements or residuals of parts that they use. There are very few speakers builders that actively use speakers building techniques to produce own sound. The Olympian is very much one of the speakers like this. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-03-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Newtohorn
Posts 5
Joined on 01-03-2018

Post #: 3
Post ID: 24621
Reply to: 24620
Addictive
Romy, thanks for your prompt response.  I find your response a bit appalling since I seriously hope I can get away by achieving a similar sound by not paying the full price.  What did click about the Olympian?  Might be easier to do comparison.  Say the Trios and Cessaro I heard, although there is that dynamic and wow factor, there is this disjointed sound feeling and I felt I cannot listen for long hours.  The JbL 66000 that I heard simply was not refined.  The Olympian was delicate and refined.  It pulls you into the music and most importantly the music was proportionate.  I felt like I can listen for long hours. It has this direct sound like other horns do while at the same time sounded proportionate and delicate.  Just addictive.
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ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 24622
Reply to: 24619
Olympian advantage
I've heard Vox Olympian several times albeit not in optimum condition. what differentiate vox for example from Cessaro- my other favorite- is: it's like Cessaro+injection channel.
Armen
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ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 24623
Reply to: 24622
Cessaro advantage
But what makes me more Cessaro biased is Cessaro's potential adjustability or it is tailorable to ones needs, where in case of Vox you have to listen to it "as it is" forever
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Newtohorn
Posts 5
Joined on 01-03-2018

Post #: 6
Post ID: 24624
Reply to: 24622
Question remains...
 ArmAlex wrote:
I've heard Vox Olympian several times albeit not in optimum condition. what differentiate vox for example from Cessaro- my other favorite- is: it's like Cessaro+injection channel.
Armen

Hi, my question remains, if the sound that Olympian achieves is something your home system is doable?

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martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 7
Post ID: 24625
Reply to: 24624
Haha my topic :)
hi. That’s a nice topic. I studied the VO like a maniac. For me there are 3 topics. First was obvious, easy, the horns. The bass horn for the ak151 is housing a rear chamber slightly open, giving the injector channel - that creates a lot charme, flavor and „heart“ but also 3 dimensional projection. In the mids, the radial horn with a wide horizontal but narrow vertical dispersion gives nice neutral and open voices with little horn sound. Then, that weird trumpet on top, has a very narrow dispersion, that makes this „zoom“ like a magnifier on details, due to lower room reverbance. About the slot tweeter used >15k i didnt make my final resume yet. 
Second: the drivers. As we know the vitavox got a lot of charme. But i also know that they color a bit too much above 5k, the 2nd harmonic increases dramatically.So its absolutely rational to cut it off there and go to a less coloring smaller driver. Funny, Kevin doesn’t seem to approach things so technical, still, for me the measures say „cut it off at 5 latest!“. Well the TAD above then, is really the least coloring driver of all. But the horn isnt. Interesting combination. The slot next on the very top seams to contribute very little. It’s crossed at 15k which means it’s only a cherry on the cake. And the vox palladian proofes that. Totally different tweeters, same sound. 
As a third: the crossover. I know the XO points and i can assume very much the steepness chosen. Still there are likely some small EQings integrated that will give Kevins Signature. Which is exactly what Romy mentioned above. So yes, having same horns and drivers, you may not get the same result. But you could, knowing where to head to. I would even say, having horns that in principle work the same way (though looking different) and totally different drivers (though the same key core values of those used in VO) you will be still able to get the same VO sound - if you know where to head to. This can be only done properly if one retailer or Kevin would allow you to make some sweeps on each mouth. Determining the transient and magnitude of the complex system. At the end, only the harmony of on axis first wavefront magnitude, and its proportion and relation to the diffuse/indirect magnitude response will give the main sound signature. This seems to be unachievable. But having same horns, starting with same XO points, based on the CN458 in a first step, you likely get very close. 
So, get yourself an approx vitavox oracle from your craftman, vitavox RH330 or similar (fostex H200, TAD H4001), a trumped like jbl 2312 and your horns are done. Buy vitavox ak15x, S2 or S3, TAD 2001/2, and the drivers are done. For the cherry, there are not many tweeters who manage the 45k like the TAd Et703 or Vitavox T9. The JBL 2405 or Fostex T825 have similar horn but only reach 20k. The Fostex T705 or T925 (old version) will manage though.Also the Fostex FD200L has a very similar construction and sound signature to the S3 (low compression 3“ aluminum diaphragm). The 18sound 2080A is similar too but more neutral less of that sound signature. Also similar to AK15x are Fostex PA38, JBL D130,  Fatial 15PR400, AES TD15M ...... as a woofer (strong motor, super light and rigid diaphragm, low Qe, hi VAS, hi Qm)
Cheers Josh 
01-04-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 8
Post ID: 24627
Reply to: 24625
Measures
ah forgot. Have some measures to give you an idea. First, this is an (what i use as good budget replacement for the TAD2002 tweeter) a JBL LE85/ 2420 in that trumpet. Green is a „normal“ horn response for comparison. Red is the JBL 2312 trumpet: 



 Then, the Vitavox S3 in RH330 response



Very important for sound signature as well, the RH330 off axis behavior:

It disperses wide but look closer. This is a dispersion diagram. The higher on Y axis, the more narrow the dispersion (spl drop off acis). As found in research, human ear perceives diffus field linear when the on axis from front comes with a 3khz dip, the so called bbc dip. Better would be a no-dip-off axis, but thats hard to achieve. Here, the vitavox shines, as it „opens up“ around 3k. Very nice for natural phantom source colors. 

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ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 24630
Reply to: 24624
Vox sound in home
Hi, no absolutely no! But question is why should we be able to achieve same sound with our home audio?
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martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 10
Post ID: 24631
Reply to: 24630
Impossible?
you think humans can fly to the moon but no one can copy the VO?Kevin used some magic tricks and got them blessed by indian guru, applied star dust, and beyond physics? Or simply you didn’t listen to them yet or personally find it not worth?
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 24632
Reply to: 24625
My metaphysical BS vs a precise to do list.
 martinshorn wrote:
The bass horn for the ak151 is housing a rear chamber slightly open, giving the injector channel - that creates a lot charme, flavor and „heart“ but also 3 dimensional projection.
I need to say that that very much dislike the design of the Olympian upper bass horn. A typical folded banality with loose back chamber. In addition, Kevin reportedly made it with very thin and very resonant wood. Truly nothing to expect and for all intended purpose very unremarkable. Still I need to admit that it works well. You know what also works? I have been telling it from early nineties: try to tap the AK151 driver’s diaphragm and listen how it responds. The sound of the driver is fucking magic and it converts into magic any fucking topology the driver is used with. I put this driver into stupid little sealed boxes and it still sound like magic. A few years back Kevin gave some interview and said that he is not attached to current Olympian drivers and if not Vitavox he would use anything else. I feel that he was kind of cunning in that statement. The S2 has own perks and looking how Olympian uses S2 I feel that it ended might be replaced. The AK151 however could not be substituted in my estimation. 
 martinshorn wrote:
Second: the drivers. As we know the vitavox got a lot of charme. But i also know that they color a bit too much above 5k, the 2nd harmonic increases dramatically.So its absolutely rational to cut it off there and go to a less coloring smaller driver. Funny, Kevin doesn’t seem to approach things so technical, still, for me the measures say „cut it off at 5 latest!“. Well the TAD above then, is really the least coloring driver of all. But the horn isnt. Interesting combination. The slot next on the very top seams to contribute very little. It’s crossed at 15k which means it’s only a cherry on the cake. And the vox palladian proofes that. Totally different tweeters, same sound.
I very much disagree with cutting S2 after 5K, I LOVE what S2 dose atop but I feel that it need to be a bit hold at very top, over 9-10K. The Olympian play with twitters I always found absolutely ridicules and in a way, contradicts a common sense…  Still it works well for Olympian. When I met Kevin, he explained to me why he did it. I still degreed with him then and I disagree now but I truly enjoyed him talking about his reasons.    
 martinshorn wrote:
So, get yourself an approx vitavox oracle from your craftman, vitavox RH330 or similar (fostex H200, TAD H4001), a trumped like jbl 2312 and your horns are done. Buy vitavox ak15x, S2 or S3, TAD 2001/2, and the drivers are done. For the cherry, there are not many tweeters who manage the 45k like the TAd Et703 or Vitavox T9. The JBL 2405 or Fostex T825 have similar horn but only reach 20k. The Fostex T705 or T925 (old version) will manage though.Also the Fostex FD200L has a very similar construction and sound signature to the S3 (low compression 3“ aluminum diaphragm). The 18sound 2080A is similar too but more neutral less of that sound signature. Also similar to AK15x are Fostex PA38, JBL D130,  Fatial 15PR400, AES TD15M ...... as a woofer (strong motor, super light and rigid diaphragm, low Qe, hi VAS, hi Qm)
Josh, here is where I found myself at a very defensive position. I am absolutely convinced that giving to an inexperienced person a laundry list of drivers and horns would serve absolutely nothing besides departing a person to long and aimless journey. You sound like you played with speakers building and when you use a single phrase, let say for instance T705, then other people with speaker building experience get a subliminal message what it might mean. The people who did not deal with all of this crap have no idea what T705 would mean and why the T705 was mentioned in context of this or that conversations.    

What I am saying that if this Newtohorn fellow get all Olympian drivers, the crossover schematics and even the building plans he will not end up with different sound that what Olympian is.  I can write 50 pages why it will be so, not that I insist that I am right but my experience dealing with audio suggests me that it would be the case. The Olympian are not juts combination of drivers but an expression of relatively organized awareness who spent many year to think and to experiment with sound and with few other areas of disciplines. I do not think that juts blind mimicking would bring to a person the same result. 


I always pay a lot of attention how the questions are asked. I do not remember that was neglecting any questions that indicated to me a person with own valuable home working. I do not feel that Newtohorn question was wrong, in fact it was very lucid but I feel that it did not rise to the level when enumeration of drivers, crossover points and  curves profile would provide any meaningful help for Newtohorn at this point.    
You, martinshorn, know well that to get Olympian sound in home is a matter of years, years of own realizations when your own discovery of own relationship with Sound makes you able to consume that “realized sound”. The “realized sound” is not a list of drivers but rather a state of mind…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-04-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 12
Post ID: 24633
Reply to: 24632
Good points - but depends on the user
hi Romy
I don’t feel much friction with your response. Thats mostly fine. But I replied assuming such a question is raised by someone who has experienced DIY background and basics how to „design sound“.This is of course a precondition. Of course we can’t list a „kit“ here. If we could, the VO would have a different price level (or should have)

The pessimistic POV shown elsewhere here, rather assumes a less experienced person asking this question. But then the answer would be no to most other speakers too Smile

But in general i believe a bit less in personality of drivers. I do believe size, weight, flux, material, etc etc all do influence the sound yes. But i dont agree with the view that only the K151 sounds like a K151. If a construction using all relevant parameters same stuff (except of connector color or such) then, applying EQ to have same response, will give the same sound. 
Regarding the S2 above 5k... for me this dramatic distortion prohibits the use:



The plot is quasi normalized. This distortion level is unacceptable. Its beyond charme and flavor. Its faulty.

By the way, do you remember some fragments you could quote why Kevin chose his tweeters? Would be interesting. I still believe this is Important in the design. Though looking redicolous, as u say, like i thought, and many other probably too. But u experienced it yourself, it sounds good, and that is all that matters.

Cheers Josh 
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,156
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 13
Post ID: 24634
Reply to: 24633
The "Variables"
This thread has gotten Interesting.  Josh, what do you say to the fact that some of the best sounding drivers with "the same specs" sound different, one from the other?  It does seem to get down to how well versed in sound development one is in the first place, not to mention how much one is willing to bend in order to move along.

As for the S2, or any driver that one wishes to "shape", there are ways to do this... if one knows how.  I remember years ago thinking the S2 sounded  something like a metal zipper.  My point is, it is possible - to a certain extent -  to "take advantage of or shape the sound of a given driver, whether alone or in the context of a system.  But this hardly helps someone who's just trying to decide what to purchase.


Best,
Paul S
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 24635
Reply to: 24633
Sometimes I disagree with myself.
 martinshorn wrote:
But I replied assuming such a question is raised by someone who has experienced DIY background and basics how to „design sound“. This is of course a precondition. Of course we can’t list a „kit“ here. If we could, the VO would have a different price level (or should have)

I do not know what the original poster experienced with DIY. I do know however that horns is not so forgiving playground. If you glue boxes and throe the drivers in the whole then whatever you do you will have some kind of sound that will be “passable”. There are very few box speakers that are truly great…and to for the people who do them it takes dozen of year to figure out how to do it. With horns it is different. If you do not do great things then your horns truly sound bad. This is why the horn has such a bad reputation: because most of them are faulty and objectively rough sounding. I personally do not believe that a person with no horn experience could take some kind multi-driver horn installation and rebuild on his own. Partially it is because there is no place to learn anything about horns and people forced to do one of two things. Ether go over years to do own mistakes and to learn the things. Or listen the online idiots like me who very much might be clueless themselves. 
 
Also, there is another aspect that Newtohorn fellow might not realized. Most likely he heard the VO and was moved in Kevin’s listening room. The Kevin’s listening room is not the Olympian but an enormous array of very clever efforts to make the sound as Newtohorn heard. The mean runs his entire playback discounted rom Grid and from a huge battery arrays. For God sake! The only this would make the stupid Altec 19 to sound like a Roll Royce of sound! So, I do not question that Newtohorn like the Olympian and that he was moved but with no experience with horns it is very difficult to identify a single contribution that made sound great. The Olympian was fine but do not underestimate many other things that Kevin to put into the whole presentation.
 martinshorn wrote:
But in general i believe a bit less in personality of drivers. I do believe size, weight, flux, material, etc etc all do influence the sound yes. But i dont agree with the view that only the K151 sounds like a K151. If a construction using all relevant parameters same stuff (except of connector color or such) then, applying EQ to have same response, will give the same sound. 

I do not think that we need to agree on it. There is a great number of great 15” lower midbass drivers, all of them are unique in one way or another. It happens that the thing that I appreciate the most live in Vitavox 15 inchers. They do not have as low compression as 416. They do handle transitions as charming as KL405 and they do not smooth transiences as  best electromagnets would do but if sounds called to throw some color firework at upper/mid bass while maintaining the holistic skeleton of sound then to me the Vitavox 15 inchers is the place to be.

 martinshorn wrote:
Regarding the S2 above 5k... for me this dramatic distortion prohibits the use. The plot is quasi normalized. This distortion level is unacceptable. Its beyond charme and flavor. Its faulty.

Get better diaphragms, clean you driver gap, align the diaphragms, perhaps get another driver (I have seen, in fact had, faulty units) and tap the driver with an air coil at 10K with first order.  

 martinshorn wrote:
By the way, do you remember some fragments you could quote why Kevin chose his tweeters? Would be interesting. I still believe this is Important in the design. Though looking redicolous, as u say, like i thought, and many other probably too. But u experienced it yourself, it sounds good, and that is all that matters.

I do not remember now but the whole experience with him was quite pleasurable and he had zero attitude typical for the audio manufacturers. I told him that I am very much familiar with S2 and that the way how he used S2 and the twitters I find to be very outside of “best practice”. When I listened the VO I was surprised that it sound very nice, in fact from some perspectives it was at the very top octaves even better than my own installation. I told that I am surprised. Kevin in response just told me the story how and why he end up with what he ended up. It was his very lucid and very well organized though process.  At that time it did make a lot of sense to me. I still do not like the VO upper range solution and if I would do it then I would end up with bad results most likely. The HF resole of Olympian was Kevin with his experiences, his objectives and his journey to THAT sound that made the whole straggle Olympian’s twitters arrangement to work. It should not be imitated in my mind as it is his intellectual property. It is like Bruce Elgar who uses in his Titans that stupid Fane tweeter that in any playback, including mine sounds like hard ringing crap. Bruce made it to sound in his Titans soft, spongy and beautiful. Or like David Wilson that makes box speakers with mid 90dB sensitivity but his largest speakers looks like disobey the dynamic range and sound more dynamic then most of the horns out there.  I respect those moments and would like to let the people who deserve it to have own trade secrets and own intellectual privacy 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-08-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Newtohorn
Posts 5
Joined on 01-03-2018

Post #: 15
Post ID: 24636
Reply to: 24619
Direction from here...
Thanks for all your inputs.  I take Romy's words that the Olympian sound is not what customized horn systems in horn enthusiasts' room sound like.  Of course, I wanted to hear the opposite, that enthusiasts here get the sound in that ballpark, but it is what it is, and that's why Kevin can charge the amount being charged.  Of the customized horn systems I have heard (all Altec variants, with strong focus on the "originality" of drivers etc.), they are not my cup of tea.  I believe I need to listen to more systems, which is not easy, the likes of Tune Audio Anima, Horn Universum and Sadurni Staccato, and see how I feel.  If I am attracted to "horn system", perhaps I will pursue a commercial offering or even start a journey of building my own system.  If I find out that I am attracted to "Olympian", well, that is an entirely different story.
martinshorn's advices on the build is certainly valuable.  I learned of a local guy who have built his 5-way as inspired by the Olympian, although not with the exact Vitavox and exotic drivers.  I will also give him a visit to see what I will see and hear.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 24637
Reply to: 24636
Another soil might be ruined…
 Newtohorn wrote:
Thanks for all your inputs.  I take Romy's words that the Olympian sound is not what customized horn systems in horn enthusiasts' room sound like.  Of course, I wanted to hear the opposite, that enthusiasts here get the sound in that ballpark, but it is what it is, and that's why Kevin can charge the amount being charged.  Of the customized horn systems I have heard (all Altec variants, with strong focus on the "originality" of drivers etc.), they are not my cup of tea.  I believe I need to listen to more systems, which is not easy, the likes of Tune Audio Anima, Horn Universum and Sadurni Staccato, and see how I feel.  If I am attracted to "horn system", perhaps I will pursue a commercial offering or even start a journey of building my own system.  If I find out that I am attracted to "Olympian", well, that is an entirely different story.
martinshorn's advices on the build is certainly valuable.  I learned of a local guy who have built his 5-way as inspired by the Olympian, although not with the exact Vitavox and exotic drivers.  I will also give him a visit to see what I will see and hear.
Well, I absolutely assure that dominating majority “customized horn systems in enthusiast’s homes” do not sound like Olympian. BTWm it is note that Olympian is a particularly good acoustic system, the good sound of Olympian is rather an aberration then rule in the world of acoustic system. The exuberant amount of money Kevin charges for Olympian is whatever it is. He have very expensive technology of finishing and his building/sealing process as I understand is not masses oriented but rather elite targeted. It is completely legitimate market sector. The total cost of rebuild Olympian with plain-vanilla finishing and LF section would be I would say under $15K but it would also take for somebody I would say a 1/5-1 year of work, not anybody would do it.


So, your question “what to do”, I do not think there is an easy answer. There is not known to me commercially available horn system that would give to me satisfaction. So, I am very much as many other people went for a long and pricy project to build my own. You might take one or another speaker idea and imitate it or even improve it. Some people, are trying to imitate/improve my Macondo, the same way how I did imitate/improve Avantgard in past. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it and you might start your own Olympian imitate/improving project. I do not know what you do and you like all of it but if you go to this direction then you will let yourself involved into a huge time and money consuming hobby. There is nothing wrong with that hobby but it is not something that you might be interesting. Talk to the guys who went there, get their depositions and deside to yourself if it is something that you want to be involved. Be advised that sitting in front speakers, smoking cigars and enjoying music is not the same as chasing drivers at eBay, begging the wood turners to follow your specification and interacting with idiots on line in order to learn what to do.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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