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10-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 20191
Reply to: 20191
Celibidache / bruckner
fiogf49gjkf0d
hi,just because it annoys me, i picked up a new  celibidache 12-cd set of bruckner recordings on amazon.fr for 25€ delivered (in france), instead of 449$ on amazon.com for the 8-cd set? maybe I am missing something! if anyone wants the set and amazon.fr won't ship to USA drop me a line and I will take delivery and ship to you a set for cost of postage...
r weissman
10-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 20192
Reply to: 20191
Celibidache and Bruckner
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, this hoopla of new releases is always works mysteries. Whit unit in a few years the same box set will be selling in Japan for $2K. Nevertheless, with all “public fashion” of Celibidache and the popularity of Celibidache and Bruckner I have to admit that I do not like his Bruckner at all. I heard that that release something that was not released before and it has to be better but I never heard it and frankly, looking what he did with Bruckner before, I do not have high expectations...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-25-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 3
Post ID: 20193
Reply to: 20192
Celibidache 12 disc set
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ironically I picked that set up in Tokyo a few weeks ago where a store had a bunch of used copies for about $25. I don't think they were used as the sets were in perfect condition without outside wrap. I listened to the set a few times but wasn't especially inspired. I put the set back safely on my shelf, thinking that maybe if I listen to several more times it might grow on me. Still haven't got around to listening again. That is not a criticism of the execution but just my opinion; a lot people have written some very positive reviews of this set. By the way, B8 from the BBC this summer (see other postings) is a different kettle of fish, which I can't resist listening to frequently. 
10-25-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 20194
Reply to: 20193
Celibidache is a strange fruit.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The Celibidache popularity is in my view is kind of inflated by his withholding his recordings during his life time. I personally have very bad experience with Celibidache. Long time ago I bought an expensive Celibidache box set with Celibidache recording of Bruckner with Stuttgart radio. That is in my view the worst Bruckner music I ever heard and I hate it tremendously.  I can writhe 543 pages of rage with explanation how bad it is and then I would probably need a good shower to clear the memories of that play.  Celibidache recorded Bruckner with Munich and it was much better. I heard some of it and I need to admit that I never was able to go over something that I have seen he did in the recordings with Stuttgart. I am taking about the ”fakeish unfilled meaningfulness” that feel in some Celibidache/Munich moments and in each bar of Celibidache/Stuttgart endeavor.  With Munich Celibidache structurally there but it is some kind of intellectual structure, almost contrived structure. With Stuttgart the structure is pointless. The poses between the notes and phrases are not juts empty but idiotic. I even feel disgusted to write about it and the memories of that garbage are coming to my mind as I am writing about it. With Munich it was much better but I remember that it was kind of “concert” version of structure.  It was almost like a play during a conservatory graduation what they try to play “nice” instead of just playing nice. There was some timing balance in there that I did not like and some sense of gentleness and unassumingness that I felt was not there. 

Perhaps I need to re-listen Celibidache with Munich and try my Celibidache/Stuttgart experience do not poison me. Anyhow, whatever you do stay as far as possible from Celibidache/Munich box sets.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-25-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 20195
Reply to: 20194
Les francaises
fiogf49gjkf0d
well we will see, I have never heard the celibidache munchen bruckner, it has very good press in french Diapason magazine, but sometimes the (we) french ar somewhat superficial in our classical tastes!  i am listening today to celibidache / du pre dvorak cello concerto on teldec, it is very sentimental playing, almost like a western film background in slow movement. it starts out with du pre trying to saw her cello in half, but then the orchestra seems to put her to sleep. 
10-25-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 20196
Reply to: 20195
Perhaps in Japan....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Good luck with your exploration of Celibidache. I never feel that he was sentimental, at least in good meaning of the word. Du pre of cause would do it, particularly with Slave music. I think the best B8 that Celibidache did (at least from what I heard) was when he took Munich in Japan on 1990. This concert was very good but I heard it long time ago when my taste to Bruckner was not so acquired. Unfortunately it was on VHF and I do not think that if ever was released on contemporary digital media. Perhaps in Japan someone could get it....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 20205
Reply to: 20196
The Bruckner Celibidaches I like
fiogf49gjkf0d
#3 -- SDR
#5 -- Munich
#6 -- (confused here... 1961? 1965? 1991?)
#7 -- SDR? VPO?

Guess I'll have to check my list, and even maybe relisten to these before finalizing choices with this august company.

c
10-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 20211
Reply to: 20196
3rd bruckner
fiogf49gjkf0d
the box set just arrived, listened to the third symphony twice tonight. geez romy if this is bad bruckner then I would really love to hear the good stuff!
very nice flow, always teling a story, superb layering of themes.
 crisp horns, clear woodwinds, bass lines easy to follow, really i have no criticism of this recording.  i admit i have very little bruckner experience.

the munich philharmonique plays extremely well, the sound is excellent with realistic dynamic levels as well.
what bruckner third recording should I order to compare? 
10-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 20213
Reply to: 20211
There are Bruckner 3 and there is THE Bruckner 3
fiogf49gjkf0d
I do not know how about to “compare”.  I did not have the box set that you have and I did not hear the specific recording you refer to. It might be fine performance. My comment before was based upon my other Celibidache Bruckner.

Frankly Bruckner 3 is generally not something that I would strive and I consider it the weakest Bruckner symphony. Not the weakest as “weakest” but rather in the Third Bruckner did not express anything that he did not express in other symphonies and in my view he did it better in other symphonies. It is in my view.

If you like the Third, less concerned about “crisp horns, clear woodwinds, bass lines easy to follow and … realistic dynamic” and more concern about the proper Bruckner interpretation than try to find SWR Symphony under Hans Zender from 2005. It is on “Charter Oak Recording” COR-545. The recording is available from ABruckner.com exclusively.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 20230
Reply to: 20194
Celibidache Bruckner Eighth last night.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was inspired by all of those conversations at the site about Celibidache and Bruckner and last night I decided to listen the Eighth from Celibidache and Münchner Philharmoniker. This is live recording of Nowak version from. I do not know the year of the recording; he is it many time, it is on EMI Classic, the back disk.

With all appeared majesty of the performance I still do not like it. It is very slow and leisurely (which is great in my book), it has appearing all right enunciation at the right spots but it has that constant Celibidache tendency to look something where nothing needs to be found. Bruckner sound is about harmonies, sonorities and connectivity everything to everything. In Celibidache hands Bruckner feel more like a Christmas tree that was decorated by a tasteless decorator. All those ugly and unwarranted single instruments accents that Celibidache tossed all across the symphony are truly bothering me. Sure, there are some inner-sections talking in Bruckner sound but it has to be subordinated and coordinated with everything else. Celibidache’s happy trumpets and happy horns are just pop up hear and there like mushrooms after rain, without any reasons and sensibility and this is not how Bruckner shall sound in my view.

Me


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 20236
Reply to: 20230
Same bruckner tonight
fiogf49gjkf0d
hi,I listened to the eighth tonight, it's the only version I have for the moment. 
it is quite magnificent at moments, i believe the over the top horns are the sound engineer fault. 
i am out in the SF Bay area end of week and hoping to find some good used music stores for another version.

11-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 20237
Reply to: 20236
Try me.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rony, if you live in France and are traveling to SF Bay area then it is non-direct fly and you most likely will stop at east cost to change the plane. So, set the stop tin Boston, spend a day with me and I will play to you all Bruckner that you ever need.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 20238
Reply to: 20237
It is nice
fiogf49gjkf0d
it is very nice offer romy, and some day with great pleasure! it is actually non-stop london/sf flight .
r weissman
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