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04-16-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,406
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 16059
Reply to: 16059
Thinking about Bruckner harmonies.
fiogf49gjkf0d

What is interesting is that Bruckner harmonies impact the way how I think about Bruckner Sound.

Sometime I have an itch for some music. It is very unpredictable and in way remands the craving s of a pregnant woman. It might be anything, from a specific Bach’s Cantata to Tchaikovsky’s string quarters, and when it is being called then I need to answer the itch. My cravings to specific music are very definitive and relatively sharp and short.  However, when I have my craving s for Bruckner then the desire grows very slow, sometimes over a few days. During this time I am playing in my mind something remotely reminding of Bruckner. I do not play truly Bruckner music in my head but I rather reconstruct the Bruckner architecture of Sound.

For a person who does dally building for living the subject of engendering architecture is no joke and it is something that I think 50 times per day. I my filed of software construction there is always 4030574 ways to do the very same things and the people like me operate et the edge the balance between many different factors, including purpose and objectives, deciding what way to go. When I think about construction of Bruckner harmonies it is not able “tunes” but rather about arousing of silence with another silence of Bruckner type.  A few days ago I brought up the Beinum’s Bruckner 8. It was defining, monumental performance but it was rather Verdi or even Mahler then Bruckner. I do not think about Bruckner in this way.

The way how I think about Bruckner Sound is more reminds the forthcoming implications of sound then the Sound itself. It is slow pre-developed of consciousness, when the phrase did not yet expressed but the listening awareness has already pre-marinated to what is coming and pre-marinated so greatly that the expression of the  phrase itself become irrelevant. And then what you feel that you do not need the “expression” as you are “already there” then Bruckner suddenly blossom with main weapon of his Sound. It is so unspeakably beautiful that to think about it for days is pure pleasure. In a way it reminds me the scratching a mosquito bite. I do not remember who exactly it was. I think it was by beloved Michel de Montaigne in his amazing essays who proclaimed that the highest pleasure an individual can accomplish is to prolong as long as humanly possible and do not scratch the mosquito bite. Then, what would in its itchy touchier behind to turn upside down in the person  head Montaigne allow to scratch  the bite and Montaigne insists that at this moment a person get maximum amplitude of pleasure imaginable.

Bruckner harmonies act in very same way but you need a VERY proper performance of Bruckner music and do not let the orchestra spoil fun for you before right time. If you are in late Bruckner symphonies then listen the Matacic’s 7, the Wand/ Lubeck 8 or Giuliani/Venna 9. Or even better do not listen them but to think HOW them play Bruckner. I would like to be able to design software in the way how they architect Bruckner thymes, to architect something that address somebody needs without actually addressing the needs but rather by elimination the reason for a need.

Did you even were able to satisfy your hanger just by looking how a cook prepares the wood? To me this is the very ultimate Bruckner. It is always a question of Herman killed the old Countess. In the Tchaikovsky’s “The Queen of Spades” Herman is coming at night to the Liza’s grandmother’s room to get from her the secret of the Three Cards. Countess did not reveal it is as she was warned by a Ghost that she would die at the very instance when a “third man” learns the secret from her.  Herman threatens her with gun, unloaded gun.  Later on, meeting with Liza:

Herman: Obstinate old bitch, she would not tell me. Well. Today she paid me a visit and names the three cards without any pressing.
Liza:  That means that you killed her?
Herman: Oh, no! Why would I? I merely raised my revolver and the old hug suddenly topped over!

So, did Herman kill the Countess? Listen, or even better THINK about Sound of first movement of the Bruckner 9th Symphony as an answer. Bruckner harmonies, being properly played has all necessary answers.  If they do not provide answers then they eliminate a need for questions…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-07-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,406
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 17680
Reply to: 16059
Pain.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am now in the mid of Philadelphia airport if I have a chance to give $5000 and to listen my Bruckner 8 then I would do it. Sometimes in  life the circumstances turn that I need it to the pain in my bones...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 290
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 17839
Reply to: 16059
Scary
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy says "Listen, or even better THINK about Sound of first movement of the Bruckner 9th Symphony as an answer.

Thinking about this did not give me the answer to the question I'm afraid. However, I therefore do agree that " If they do not provide answers then they eliminate a need for questions…"

The Ninth is about the scariest music I know. Hearing it in the concert hall gives a sensation of darkness almost blackness within which are fearsome things struggling to burst out. It makes Wagner's dragon music with Fafner almost juvenile sounding in comparison. The other music work I feel is scary has a more impersonal way - I'm referring to Tapiola.
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,406
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 17843
Reply to: 17839
Scary Bruckner?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 steverino wrote:
Romy says "Listen, or even better THINK about Sound of first movement of the Bruckner 9th Symphony as an answer.

Thinking about this did not give me the answer to the question I'm afraid. However, I therefore do agree that " If they do not provide answers then they eliminate a need for questions…"

The Ninth is about the scariest music I know. Hearing it in the concert hall gives a sensation of darkness almost blackness within which are fearsome things struggling to burst out. It makes Wagner's dragon music with Fafner almost juvenile sounding in comparison. The other music work I feel is scary has a more impersonal way - I'm referring to Tapiola.
Hm, this is interesting. I do not find anything in Bruckner to be scare and I do not feel any frightening in Bruckner 9th Symphony. The first movement of the Bruckner 9th is in a way playful not scary; it has some moments of soberness but it still “playful”. For sure the first movement plays with serious subjects. The best play I envision is God planning mountains and reveres – the important subject but still play in God’s mind as he changes his mind and stretches mountains higher or rivers deeper. The seriousness of the subject still does not make the play less playful.

I do not feel any sensation of darkness in any of Bruckner music. Even in the moments when Bruckner wants to be grave-dark (let say the adagio of the 7th) she can’t help himself and sound more optimistic and buoyant then the circumstances force him to.

The interesting subject however is what makes music scare. I generally do not feel scare just from sound, to me any “scare” is hugely amusing and probably the most scary it get the more I would be entertained. Perhaps might explain why you feel fear about Bruckner 9th but I feel playfulness.
It might be another explanation. I am reading the book by Daniel Rancour-Laferriere “The Slave Soul of Russia: Moral Masochism and the Cult of Suffering”. I do not agree with all Daniel angles but he has the main point with which I do not disagree and which I have stressed myself before. Perhaps my Russian descendendcy made me to recognize pleasure in darkness. Well, it is what it is, still, kill me but I do not find anything dark of scare in  Bruckner…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 290
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 17850
Reply to: 17843
Reactions to the 9th
fiogf49gjkf0d
We are talking about subjective reactions so there is no way to dispute either of our responses. However, I do see a disconnect between your statements that I quoted and your subsequent post. In the first post you were talking about the Queen of Spades opera and mentioning a scene with the death of the Countess. You stated:

"So, did Herman kill the Countess? Listen, or even better THINK about Sound of first movement of the Bruckner 9th Symphony as an answer. Bruckner harmonies, being properly played has all necessary answers.  If they do not provide answers then they eliminate a need for questions "…


But then you stated:

"I do not find anything in Bruckner to be scare and I do not feel any frightening in Bruckner 9th Symphony. The first movement of the Bruckner 9th is in a way playful not scary; "

It's hard to reconcile these two statements.

Severaf other issues may be going on as well. First, I listen to Bruckner's symphomies once or twice a year. You seem to listen monthly or maybe even weekly to it. Second, I was referring to its effect in the concert hall. It doesn't affect me quite to that degree on the stereo for obvious reasons. The blackness I was referring to was the sound of the harmonies. Bruckner wrote out very full, harmonically rich and bass heavy chords in the first movement. Third, as you say you are Russian.

Finally I don't think other Bruckner is scary. I agrre that some of it is quite playful such as Sympnies 1 5 and 6. The 7th seems more serene than playful.
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,406
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 17851
Reply to: 17850
Sound vs. meaning?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 steverino wrote:
We are talking about subjective reactions so there is no way to dispute either of our responses.

Of cause we do talk about subjective reactions. I do not see that we “dispute” reactions but we rather exchange reactions. This is the only valuable thing to do in my view, particularly when we are talking about music
 
 steverino wrote:
However, I do see a disconnect between your statements that I quoted and your subsequent post. In the first post you were talking about the Queen of Spades opera and mentioning a scene with the death of the Countess. You stated:

"So, did Herman kill the Countess? Listen, or even better THINK about Sound of first movement of the Bruckner 9th Symphony as an answer. Bruckner harmonies, being properly played has all necessary answers.  If they do not provide answers then they eliminate a need for questions "…

But then you stated:

"I do not find anything in Bruckner to be scare and I do not feel any frightening in Bruckner 9th Symphony. The first movement of the Bruckner 9th is in a way playful not scary; "

It's hard to reconcile these two statements.

Steverino, I am sorry but I see absolutely no conflict in what you quoted. The question of Countess death and Herman’s responsibility for it is purely ethical. There is nothing scary or frightening in the inquiry. You might fell that Death is scary. Leaving aside my feeling about Death I would like to point out that Countess death is just a ploy to bring larger ethical perspective:  the Herman’s agreement to engage the devil’s help to win the girl. 

 steverino wrote:
Severaf other issues may be going on as well. First, I listen to Bruckner's symphomies once or twice a year. You seem to listen monthly or maybe even weekly to it. Second, I was referring to its effect in the concert hall. It doesn't affect me quite to that degree on the stereo for obvious reasons. The blackness I was referring to was the sound of the harmonies. Bruckner wrote out very full, harmonically rich and bass heavy chords in the first movement. Third, as you say you are Russian.

Finally I don't think other Bruckner is scary. I agrre that some of it is quite playful such as Sympnies 1 5 and 6. The 7th seems more serene than playful.

Well, perhaps we go a bit confused between darkness of sound and darkness of musical meaning. When you referred to “scary” and “dark” I took it literally: scary is scary. As I said OI do not feel anything “scary” and “dark” in 9 Symphony. The gloomiest music Bruckner wrote was the opening tune for adagio 7th. Unfortunately they do not play it properly and to get the full density of it you need to go with Matacic 1967 and VERY annoying playback. It is very gloomy, very dark and very disheartening but it is not scare in any way to me. It is super beautiful. Beauty might not be only in shape of cat body or smell fresh roses. Beauty might be in shape of nuclear explosion cloud or in loneliness of desert landscape. I think one of the magnificent thing about Bruckner that he was not able to write scare music. Stravinsky could, Bruckner could not… But again, what does make you to scare: the sound that orchestra produces of the meaning and Bruckner’s expressions?

The Cat

PS: I listen Bruckner approximately 5-6 times per week.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 290
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 17856
Reply to: 17851
No "meaning" in music
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy says "what does make you to scare: the sound that orchestra produces of the meaning and Bruckner’s expressions?"

I don't think there is "meaning" in the sense of particular ideas in music. It can suggest different images or emotional states but not concepts as such. To try and answer the question, the way Bruckner has orchestrated the 1st movement very much amplifies the effect of the musical themes. (I suppose if he had orchestrated it differently or made a few alterations the "scariness" could have been greatly diminished.) Even in the 8th Symphony there was a flowing or a steady rhythmic organization that carried one along in a "typical" symphonic manner. In the first movement of the 9th however the movement is ultra slow and sometimes halting or labored. I'm not referring to the quality of the music, just the way it is rhythmically organized. Then periodically when it seems like the music comes to a half pause the brass erupts,  not in a typical chorale expressing calm or straightforward dynamic contrast,.but in an amplification of the mood. The harmonies used in the brass are also more dissonant ending with that grinding minor 9th in the coda.

As far as the comments on Queen of Spades Bruckner etc,  all I can say is that the opera doesn't playfully deal with death. There are obsessions and tormented suicides after all. Now one might take a mocking attitude and not find it emotionally involving but it is not customary to use the term "playful" in that context. Playful means not serious or light-hearted. Nor are the metaphysical issues comical as such at least in the opera. However I'm saying this as a non Russian and I may be missing the intended effect of Tchaikovsky. Anyway the emotional states I find expressed in the 9th do not strike me as comic or lighthearted.

Also in the 7th Adagio I find the "gloominess" to be more objectively expressed as in funeral music not the subjective agitation of the 9th.
As for Stravinsky its interesting you find his music scary because I don't at all except possibly a bit in the Sacrificial Dance which really is just highly tense. Which works do you find scary?
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,406
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 17857
Reply to: 17856
Bruckner
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If cause music has meaning. Music without meaning is just sounds. Whatever meaning a listener perception has managed to develop is the meaning of music.

I guess I do not listen Bruckner music like this as I do not recognize the steady of not steady rhythmic organizations, brass chorales or etc… I do not recognize the ultra slow or ultra soft values of the Bruckner’s expression as some kind of stand-by mode between the eruptions. To me it is all the past of the whole experience. It is like making love to a woman you love – the moment of ejaculation are nice but dally experience might be as gratifying, if you in love. To me Bruckner is about subordination, the subordination of listening will and listening ego to mightier force. I do not talk about God but rather about the different force that Bruckner music conceives. BTW, I do not take word "playful" in context of Bruckner as light-hearted. To my mind the superiority of Bruckner harmonies is so far more advanced then my mind that it does create some playfulness, similar to how a lion or tiger do not kill a small rabbit and juts plays with it just because it is not truly a noble pray or something that will not feed her anyways….

Do you want to realize the playfulness of Bruckner and to feel yourself a rabbit? Try to sing the Bruckner symphonies. I do it all time what I am along and I am telling you that it is imposable to own the  Bruckner harmonies – Bruckner is always find ways to be million steps above you and you suddenly recognize who is who. This very personal feeling that are participating in this beauty but can’t own this beauty is so addictive! Here is where my damn Russky masochism hit me again….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 290
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 9
Post ID: 17858
Reply to: 17857
Differences in listening
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Obviously, people who have training in musical forms and elements (like myself) talk about music differently than people who are just music lovers. When I listen I switch off the analysis mode and just go with the flow. When I'm asked why I feel or think such and such about a musical work then I tend to analyze and describe why I think this way or that about it.

BTW I did not say that the passages between the brass outbursts were a "stand by" mode. I indicated that they set the basic mood that the brass then amplified. Bruckner has his paddings but starting with the 5th he never has aimless movement in terms of the structure.

You confirmed that you are using "playful" in a very atypical way. In that sense I would agree that in the 9th, Bruckner sometimes appears to feel that he is being played with by forces beyond this realm.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,406
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 17859
Reply to: 17858
My Bruckner?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Steverino,  I feel with Bruckner, not like with anybody else, people shall practice holistic approach to listening. It is not juts melodies and sounds of tunes but the whole experience of being who you are exposed to the whole experience of proper presentation of Bruckner. It is about absolute submerging, not only your listening attention but rather the whole inner-you. Sometimes Bach can deliver it but Bach is too brilliant with his insulting laconism and truly genius simplicity and might be too much to handle. With Bruckner the geniusness is defused and in addition Bruckner is never flashy. You do not feel that you are listening music with Bruckner but you just deal with some kind of out of this would force that you are trying to get in resonance and to ride. Where Bach frequently reminds you that he is a genius-composer, Bruckner never put himself in the picture. Funny, I have absolutely no interest about Bruckner personally and I never read even a single book about him. Bruckner does not exist but the force he created is her with single push of play button.

What I can propose if you are interesting. I think you live somewhere in East Cost. So, spend 200 bucks and fry to Boston. I will take a day off and play to you my version of Bruckner. I will not tell you about cartridges, power cords and cable elevators. What I will do would be playing for you the interpretations of Bruckner music ever were committed to recording media and in the condition that I hope will do some justice to Bruckner experience. I do not think you will be able to find a whole lot of similar opportunities and if you like Bruckner music then I think that my version of Bruckner playing is fairly unique, well at least worth $200 to expirence…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (10 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Bruckner Ninth and the War...  Yep, this is my Kitty....  Musical Discussions  Forum     18  46231  04-07-2006
  »  New  Bruckner, me and the Seventh..  From Memory...  Musical Discussions  Forum     81  374819  07-17-2007
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  56588  06-15-2010
  »  New  Bruckner Sinfonie Nr.8, B. Haitink, Concertgebow-Orcher..  Bruckner with no attenuation....  Musical Discussions  Forum     1  13426  10-23-2009
  »  New  A stunning contra-Bruckner 8 Symphony...  Birds watching according to Bruckner.......  Musical Discussions  Forum     2  17935  04-13-2011
  »  New  Bruckner, Wind and the wet dream…..  Günter Wand 100 year birthday....  Playback Listening  Forum     3  15314  04-27-2011
  »  New  There is Bruckner and there is all the rest music...  Self-induced schizophrenia? Why not?...  Musical Discussions  Forum     5  22834  11-09-2011
  »  New  Easy Bruckner for Beginners...  Take me with you....  Musical Discussions  Forum     2  14696  12-01-2011
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