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  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  193714  10-28-2007
  »  New  Wilson Audio and the Moore's law..  Sneak peak of modesty...  Audio News Forum     19  53466  04-26-2009
  »  New  Other Ways of getting Special Tone from a loudspeaker...  Paul S....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  57990  11-27-2009
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  67351  06-15-2010
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02-05-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 161
Post ID: 18983
Reply to: 18981
After a few years with injection channel….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 morespeakers2 wrote:
The injection channel is the only thing about the Macondo that raises my eyebrow as a kind of "out there" concept and I have been meaning to ask about it for quite some time.

………………………………………………………………………………

 Now I thought the injection channel was a passing phase and that you would eventually get rid of it but that does not seem to be the case.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Anyway after you living with the injection channel for some time it seems that any lack of focus that I would guess the channel might bring, far outweighs the tone benefits or "decompression" it brings to the table. Now I am asking does this injection channel somehow actually somehow counter intuitively bring "focus" to the sound even though I and probably many other would have guessed it might muck things up causing a little confusion to sound?

I have spoken about it recently

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1915482&postcount=36

…and multiple times at my site. The injection channel is a controversial subject and everything is upon a specific implementation, how the things done and what the prosperities are.

Yes, the presence of secondary HF source does reduce the clarity of speaker imaging and focus. However that lack of clarity might be observed only very competent gemologist. For sure the presents of a second HF source crate nasty lobbing effect along with many other negative things. However, my injection channel is perfectly time aligned and has no horizontal offset, not to mention that it set o run at minus 12dB. Do I hear imaging and focus improvement what I shut down the injection channel. Yes I do. However, imaging and focus are not “fixed” property that is messured at some kind of absolute scale. Each and single inhalation and each acoustic system in any given room has own imaging presentation and own strength of focus. Macondo with and without injection have just different ways to focus imaging. I would say that without injection the presentation is slightly more accurate but only from the single perspective of imaging focus. With the injection on the presentation slightly more defused but much larger in scale, much more organically sticks to the room’s boundaries, much more “cylindrical” by nature and incontestably richer from tonal perspective.

I do use very specific categories but I am the person who knows Macondo sound well and I know what to look for. A regular audio person who did not invest as much time into Macondo does not notice the contribution of injection channel even if I point it out. I have many time when my visitors asked me to flip the injection on and off, something that I did and none of them got the change right the way. Usually after 5-6 flips they do get the very fine difference and I did have some people who did not recognize the difference at all. What I am saying is that the contribution of my injection is very minor on general scale. I personally do not feel so and for me the injection provides huge difference that appreciate person and I do not intend to lose.

Is injection a compromise? Yes it is but I do not know how to make my drivers to be able throw definitive amount of tonality. I have no idea how moderate warmth of tone or color saturation in compression drivers. So, I use injection. If my horn drivers might not be benefited by my injection than I would not use injection at all. It is possible that such drivers exist out there but I do not have them and I have a lot of reason to feel that they might not exist.

Ironically it is very easy for you to test the whole injection concept and to make your own judgment about it’s benefits. I very much do not defend what I did. My playback is for my own benefits and I know what I get from it. If the injection does prevent you from sleep and you are looking for answers then just try it, that what I would do if I were so curios. Borrow 10’ old Tannoy Red driver, mount it in the box you have and spend a few days of listening it. Learn for yourself what this driver does right and wrong. Then try to combine what the driver doe right with the sound of your main inhalations. If you use only vertical plane and time-align the injection with the rest of your channels then you will have an illustration how it works.

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 162
Post ID: 20254
Reply to: 3833
A celebration of Injection channel.
fiogf49gjkf0d
On this Saturday Boston Baroque performed in Jordan Hall Beethoven’s Symphony No.9.  Boston Baroque is a very interesting group. It was a small perhaps 20 people chorus with truly phenomenal singer and it was a spectacular period-instrument band.

You might say whatever you want if it worthy to play Beethoven on period-instruments and it was way not the best No.9 that I heard but it was also incredibly amusing to listen them. The period-instruments have own idiosyncratic voice and some amassing tonal qualities that made the Beethoven music illuminated like a X-Mass tree, painted in different unique colors.

In a way it was the orchestra lit up by my Injection Channel.  It was bit over blown (as Beethoven is a bit too modern for Baroque -instrument placing) but it was different and immensely entertaining.  I wish more people out there understand and use the Injection Channel concept.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 163
Post ID: 20255
Reply to: 20254
Moron -o- phonic
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've been using injection channel in monophonic systems and am more inspired by the musical ideas than ever. Thanks for creating the path, Cat.
Farmer
11-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 164
Post ID: 20256
Reply to: 20255
Interviewing Steve.
fiogf49gjkf0d
People might do not know that Steve is quite prominent wine maker. So I wonder if Steve, being supporter and user of Injection Channel, would bring an association of what Injection Channel would do/contibute if Sound was Wine?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 165
Post ID: 20257
Reply to: 20256
Injection Channel and wine glass selection
fiogf49gjkf0d
I thought about this a lot and I think the shape/size of the glass similarly allows the winemakers intent to be properly expressed. It's considered by many to be a small thing, but in fine wine like music the small things are necessary to transmit the full depth of the art. The glass shape is like the injection channel.
11-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 166
Post ID: 20258
Reply to: 20257
A “poisoned” barrel
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is much unexpected to me. I never thons that you would be associated the Injection Channel with shape/size of the glass. Of cause your notion glass is very different then mu notion of glass…

If I bring my association of Injection Channel into winemaking (considering that I know nothing about wine making) then I would say that to me the Injection Channel would be something like this:

I have my wine sitting in some kind of aged barrels. Then I have one special “poison” barrel in wish I was last year keeping let say a mix of dill and blubbery. So, I have my wine placed for a week to my “poison” barrel to add to it some custom spice. That to me would be what Injection Channel does to sound, regardless how barbaric my example might sound for a true winemaker.

Rgs, The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004

Post #: 167
Post ID: 20259
Reply to: 20258
Dissonance and complexity...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes winemakers go for complexity of flavor tones just as musical composers may go for complexity of musical tone and you are not far off in one way to go about it in the wine cellar. But you are talking about the composition not the consumption event. I think I will stick with glass shape for now as injection channel shaping of the consumption event.
Steve
04-21-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 168
Post ID: 23179
Reply to: 20259
HF imaging from injection channel
An interesting finding to injecting HF without disturbing, but improving the imaging:

I got learn from a guy with his setup, which made sense to me after studying the precedence effect, and copied it with some changes in my way.

At the end, it was a tweeter (I used a widedisp. slit horn) on the back, facing the wall, operating in HF only, with a delay of 5ms and amplitude of ~ -10dB.
Turning it on and off you can immediately notice the HF-Inj. opens a curtain, everything becomes open and clear.
Though, thx to the 5ms precedence window, not affecting the imaging in any negative way.

Im currently trying to merge into the resonating channel, having a HF free oops plus the precedence-HF workin together.
Ill keep you posted.


Cheers,
Josh
04-25-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 169
Post ID: 23192
Reply to: 23179
Easy come and easy go…
Josh, yes, there are some techniques to create “space” by artificial means. Revel does it in their speakers for instance and few others. Some companies inject out of phase sound in the back of the speakers. To a degree all of it works. It is important to understand is that when I say “artificial means” I did not have any negative connotation. Most of the thing we do in Audio are artificial means. I personably do not welcome the back firing approach in my practice as I do not like any dipole radiation. Dipole (any) make sound to be “easy” instead of “complex” and from my perspective do not fill up discerning demand.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 170
Post ID: 23194
Reply to: 23192
Similar is not the same
Hi romy. Agree there's lot of the reflection thrower machines existing. But the crucial thing is to understand the precedence effect. Doing it wrong like all others did before, you just slam reflections in the early phase of your main impulse from the speaker. You get a nice airy stage, but blur away all details and localization.
That's exactly what I don't want. I'm delaying the 5ms to be out of the precedence window of human brains perception. You admit yourself over damping the room is a flaw, which makes you admitting reflection is crucial for natural perception to a certain degree. We just got to be careful when and how much. That's explained by the precedence effect.

Going into my example here, I can decide on the exact point I want to have the frontwall (rear of the speaker) reflecting. I set the delay, respectively I "move" the wall and the stage. I decide via delay where and how big the room is being perceived. Its damn cool. Criticize it after you tried please, cause its got nothing in common with known things like Revel etc.
04-26-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 171
Post ID: 23195
Reply to: 23194
Footnote
also the phase you mean is actually reverse amplitude without delay. Which, on a 2 feet distance in HF, has absolutely no audible relevance. Its important in either lows or when operating dipole, as the distance of source in depth is near 0 so that the polar pattern is shrinked on the sides. As revel puts them on the rear with way more than 10 times lambda, you can shift the phase up and down without an influence.
04-26-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 172
Post ID: 23196
Reply to: 23195
Time-domains experiments are great!
Josh, I am sorry, I missed from you original post the fact that you delay the back tweeters. It just looked and it is there, I just did not registered on me…


Yes, the play with delayed channels is very cook thing. I did play with 10-30ms delay in midbass. I mean to have time aligned midbass at 100% volume and then to have 20ms delayed midbass in the position of back channels in surround configuration running 30% of volume. It extended the room size multiple times, primary by extending the room decay in lover octaves. I did not measure new RT60 with delayed channels and I think it was extended juts for a little but the overall effect was much larger. I had 2 problem with it. The complexity of configurations. Different recordings demanded own delay configuration to “be right” and it was a bit too finicky. The second problem was “some” loss of midbass definition. Any tricks like this do impact sound negatively. I still felt that benefit were larger then lost definition in the same way as I feel that my Color Injection Channel provide more benefit then harm but it does not mean that I refuse to acknowledge that it does has some “definition” harm as well. 
 
Anyhow, I am a huge fun of any time-domains experiments and I very much welcome them. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-01-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 173
Post ID: 23242
Reply to: 23196
Someone did the research...
http://www.hans-deutsch.com/aap.html
06-01-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,535
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 174
Post ID: 23243
Reply to: 23242
Research?
 martinshorn wrote:
http://www.hans-deutsch.com/aap.html
Sorry, I don’t see any reference, mentioning or even insinuation of any research in there. They make a bunch of claims that are not only unsubstantiated but also are very trivial. They for sure are perfectly in their rights to make any bogus claims, the claims might not even to be bogus. However, in the site I did not see absolutely anything that would district them from any other manufactures. The claims that thier two-way monitors sound better than other brand two way monitors because … their sound more integrated and cohesive. Is not an indication of “Research” but rather an indication that their marketing people have no idea of what a research might be? Anyhow, each single claim they make is in fact a regular banality that might be claimed by anybody else. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 175
Post ID: 23244
Reply to: 23243
At least someone on the boat
Ya its not scientific. Anyway hard-to-measure topic.
But worth to share! Nice also describing same perception and approach like your opening post.
Interesting to see how they solve it, installing a complete board for resonance. And leaving a gap to the cab behind.
Could be a nice approach, especially that those guys are actually piano designers, and world class scale.

On the other hand, they don't show if they tried different forms, evaluated alternatives etc.
Its just one way of doing, and probab the first that was good enough and stayed. (or 2nd/3d.)
I think there are many ways and each is worth a look. My u-shape labyrinth works nice too. To my full satisfaction. But could there be a better one? I don't know yet Smile
06-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 176
Post ID: 23245
Reply to: 23244
Everything You Need?
Rather involved discussion about Helmholtz-type speakers.  Here's another proponent, Hans Kortenbach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHBlikzKoRg

I have only "heard" the Musical Affairs speakers on YouTube, but I have to say, they are able to do some specific things rather well.  As ever, the resonating oops question that stays with me is, what do we mean by "resonances".  If the aim is to add tonal color to a horn system, that might be different than adding sound effects to a direct driver or hybrid system.  In Romy's case the drivers he used to do it have been noted for tonal color, in and of themselves, even in free air.  By this I mean that they can reproduce a wide range of instrumental and vocal colors.  In any case, would there be a value to having the same colorations added to any and all music?  I suppose this is possible if the resonator adds something that is otherwise always missing; but that's the only reason for this I can think of as I type.  The Musical Affairs speakers do seem to have some predictable (for the genre) problems when they are asked to play music that strays out of their sweet spot.  Not that any other speakers are different in this regard, rather to say, to my ears the MA speakers have a fairly limited repertoire.  Do the "piano speakers" share these sorts of limits?

Also on the Bosendorfer site are a number of "options" offered for improving speaker performance.  These could be very educational for the patient, attentive audiophile.


Paul S
06-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 177
Post ID: 23246
Reply to: 23245
What is with this youtube????
i noticed these videos / new fashion weeks ago and was wondering , wtf is that? Who would watch this and for which purpose? Does anyone????
Crazy world. Soon people will start saying "last month i went for vacation to lonely planet"
06-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 178
Post ID: 23247
Reply to: 23246
Yes, It Takes All Kinds
Yes, I agree, it is "wasting time" to look at websites, YouTube, go to shows, etc. to learn about hi-fi.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 179
Post ID: 23248
Reply to: 23247
Calm
no offense buddy Smile just the youtube...
06-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,144
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 180
Post ID: 23249
Reply to: 23248
Am Besten?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34xSqNs5AQ0




Page 9 of 10 (184 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 6 7 8 9 10 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The elusive “absolute tone”...  Breeze......  Playback Listening  Forum     24  154708  07-28-2005
  »  New  The “Primary Frequencies”...  Melody range and the other octaves...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  49658  09-08-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  28708  06-19-2006
  »  New  Great Cello Concertos..  János Starker passed away...  Musical Discussions  Forum     21  138527  07-04-2006
  »  New  SPUnisation of Macondo: how to catch own testicals...  Who? (shades of the old "musical" vs. "a...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  21475  02-01-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red 1960s: some sober reality..  The Summer Monitors?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  108917  02-15-2007
  »  New  The inflatable speakers dumping and no only...  Labyrinth?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  48176  05-30-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  399538  07-29-2007
  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  218415  09-09-2007
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  193714  10-28-2007
  »  New  Wilson Audio and the Moore's law..  Sneak peak of modesty...  Audio News Forum     19  53466  04-26-2009
  »  New  Other Ways of getting Special Tone from a loudspeaker...  Paul S....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  57990  11-27-2009
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  67351  06-15-2010
  »  New  An educational Eugenie’s installation...  Some more......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  55489  07-15-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12283  10-08-2010
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