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11-09-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 161
Post ID: 22215
Reply to: 22212
I am a freaking Nostradamus... and Dr. House....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Good, I hate to know everything! I just wrote that the poor Murat with his neurotic audiophile itch is condemned to go brainlessly very soon over many drivers. A few days pass and the guy have brought to his room an army of WEs, Gotos, Votavoxs, new JBLs and insist that he is experimenting. It is the very same guy who has (based upon the questions he is asking) very little comprehend ion regarding drivers loading, crossovering, amplification, channels integration and who has listening intelligence very questionable. I am sure that 3 days after tomorrow he will be flooding the internet with pontification like "come on I have tried that WE(or whatever)  and I didn't (or did) like it". What the waste! I told in the very beginning of the thread that Murat has to take it very sallow , do not buy anything for a year  and spend it not for "building" but rather self-educating what the purpose of audio might be. Apparently, my advise opened some kind of Pandora Box for the worst audiophile itch. God, I thought that I am a great Nostradamus but it turn out that I am a great diagnostician as well.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 144
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 162
Post ID: 22216
Reply to: 22200
Time alignment
fiogf49gjkf0d
Murat, I was looking at your midbass horn design and I am wondering, how are you planning to time align that long midbass with the rest of the channels that seem to be time aligned. I mean, currently the midbass is physically 4.3m behind all other channels. Do you plan to use DSP with delay or some other solution?

 Murataltuev wrote:
After all I'm going to construct this kind of mid-bass horn.
It is 35Hz, 4.3m long and 1.4m mouth.

AC_spiral_render2.png
11-10-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 163
Post ID: 22217
Reply to: 22216
Delay for midbass
fiogf49gjkf0d
 noviygera wrote:
Murat, I was looking at your midbass horn design and I am wondering, how are you planning to time align that long midbass with the rest of the channels that seem to be time aligned. I mean, currently the midbass is physically 4.3m behind all other channels. Do you plan to use DSP with delay or some other solution?
I believe that delay is easy to organize in digital domain without influence to the signal.I have custom DAC project and may be I'll use separate DAC for this channel with USB data buffer to organize delay.Another simple way is to do it on source software side. I didn't decide yet.
11-10-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 164
Post ID: 22218
Reply to: 22215
Very funny :)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Good, I hate to know everything! I just wrote that the poor Murat with his neurotic audiophile itch is condemned to go brainlessly very soon over many drivers. A few days pass and the guy have brought to his room an army of WEs, Gotos, Votavoxs, new JBLs and insist that he is experimenting.
Romy, read my first post here.I told from the beginning that I'm going to try all kind of respected drivers to decide for myself what I like most.This is not about system as a whole with crossovering and other things. It is about sound of exact driver for exact range in most suitable horn for this range.For midBass and upperBass I've finally decided to use GOTO SG-146 - 4" throat in 46Hz and 200Hz LeCleach.For the 500+hz range I'm going to compare WE555, GOTO-555, Vitavox S2 and JBLs. For next range S2 and JBLs. Then RAAL and may be GOTO-SG17.I'm lucky to have all of them in my room and why not to evaluate ?You insist that I'm doing wrong, but honestly, I don't understand what are you talking about. And my impression, that you need to answer yourself why you worry about such a simple thing as comparison of different drivers.
 It is the very same guy who has (based upon the questions he is asking) very little comprehend ion regarding drivers loading, crossovering, amplification, channels integration and who has listening intelligence very questionable.
You don't know anything about my listening intelligence and better not to mention anything about it. Imagine that I have my own unintelligent expectations and want to fulfill them anyway. I'm not suggesting you anything from my unintelligent taste and not gong to further post my impressions, so don't worry.Regarding driver loading I'm not sure that you know everything about it. You can't explain how I get 150hz in 200hz LeCleach and your imaginations about driver with 2 springs are very irrelevant to what it is in reality. You don't understand superiority of compression driver for the low frequencies. You think that LeCleach's curl is useless for low frequencies. You don't trust HornResp. You just have your own explanation of things like anybody else. Nothing special - believe me. Everyone is the same. Everyone want to think that he is special and has some unique knowledge, but it is never true. So, I suggest you to be open for others experience. This is more respectable, I believe.
I am sure that 3 days after tomorrow he will be flooding the internet with pontification like "come on I have tried that WE(or whatever)  and I didn't (or did) like it". What the waste! I told in the very beginning of the thread that Murat has to take it very sallow , do not buy anything for a year  and spend it not for "building" but rather self-educating what the purpose of audio might be. Apparently, my advise opened some kind of Pandora Box for the worst audiophile itch. God, I thought that I am a great Nostradamus but it turn out that I am a great diagnostician as well.
I'm posting only in my SoundEx thread, because I want to share my experience to get opinions and suggestions from other experienced people. I'm not trying to teach, I'm trying to learn. You are tying to be The Great Master laughing on morons...ok...no problem Smile No one heard your system...who knows...may be the great king is naked Smile

11-10-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 165
Post ID: 22219
Reply to: 22218
OK, good luck.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
Romy, read my first post here.I told from the beginning that I'm going to try all kind of respected drivers to decide for myself what I like most.This is not about system as a whole with crossovering and other things. It is about sound of exact driver for exact range in most suitable horn for this range.For midBass and upperBass I've finally decided to use GOTO SG-146 - 4" throat in 46Hz and 200Hz LeCleach.For the 500+hz range I'm going to compare WE555, GOTO-555, Vitavox S2 and JBLs. For next range S2 and JBLs. Then RAAL and may be GOTO-SG17.I'm lucky to have all of them in my room and why not to evaluate ?You insist that I'm doing wrong, but honestly, I don't understand what are you talking about. And my impression, that you need to answer yourself why you worry about such a simple thing as comparison of different drivers.
 
Well, perhaps I have more respect to the subject then to the people who do not understand the subject? You are taking about bolting different brands and models of driver to a random pile of acoustic irrelevancy and listening unsystematic results by the ears which have no idea what to listen, by the brain that has very little experience how to interpret the heard and by a mind that has no understanding about metrological discipline.  Why do you think I invest very little into my expectations from your experiments?
 Murataltuev wrote:
You don't know anything about my listening intelligence and better not to mention anything about it.

Actually I do. I read plenty of your posts and well observed the way how you interpret what you hear. I also paid attention to the way how you repeat and editorialize the words of others and I know very much who those others are. While you do it you feel that you extend the subject and compliment the subject with your own take but in reality you in fact do misunderstand the subject. I have seen it a few times and it was very indicative to me.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Imagine that I have my own unintelligent expectations and want to fulfill them anyway. I'm not suggesting you anything from my unintelligent taste and not gong to further post my impressions, so don't worry.

Sure, no one suggest that you should not fulfill your own expectations. Whatever make you happy! It is my verdict that your expectations has nothing to do with what I feel might be used as vicarious learning and I have very little expectations from your finding. There are other people at this forum and you might post whatever you want but I think you need to know my general outlook about your practice. Real sonic result does not come from running over stupidly “testing” an army of drives but perfecting of one driver. You do not know what it means at this point  but it is OK.
 Murataltuev wrote:
Regarding driver loading I'm not sure that you know everything about it. You can't explain how I get 150hz in 200hz LeCleach and your imaginations about driver with 2 springs are very irrelevant to what it is in reality. You don't understand superiority of compression driver for the low frequencies. You think that LeCleach's curl is useless for low frequencies. You don't trust HornResp. You just have your own explanation of things like anybody else. Nothing special - believe me. Everyone is the same. Everyone want to think that he is special and has some unique knowledge, but it is never true. So, I suggest you to be open for others experience. This is more respectable, I believe.

God, how the hell I deserve all of it? I do not want to explain to you each point – you will not understand. I will tell you only one thing. I am not against the HornResp but I am against the HornResp or RTA in the hand of the people like you. You people have no idea how to interpreted graphs and how they related to actual listening experience and in my view your “measurements” are irrelevant.
 Murataltuev wrote:
I'm posting only in my SoundEx thread, because I want to share my experience to get opinions and suggestions from other experienced people. I'm not trying to teach, I'm trying to learn. You are tying to be The Great Master laughing on morons...ok...no problem  No one heard your system...who knows...may be the great king is naked 
Nope, laughing about Morons one do not need to insist to be a Great Master or to pretend to be experienced with great audio. The sad thing in this whole story is that I am not laughing about what you do. In fact I took it is very seriously, listened you attentively and told you what I think you should do - take a fucking time and build in your mind a sense of own actions. Instead of trying to think and to understand what and why I recommend it you went for exact opposite – a barbaric and brainless actions.  That is why I am not interested: I was there, I know what it leads to. You might (or not might) “get” it in 10-15 years, until then enjoy your life but all attention that you will get from me would be a presumption of foolishness.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 166
Post ID: 22220
Reply to: 22217
A hallucinations?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
I believe that delay is easy to organize in digital domain without influence to the signal.I have custom DAC project and may be I'll use separate DAC for this channel with USB data buffer to organize delay.Another simple way is to do it on source software side. I didn't decide yet.

Yes, a separate delayed DAC, if one use only one digital source, is an elegant way to organize delay for the rest of channels. It does not answer the mains question however: why a midbass horn has to be positioned at the location of main channel’s stack? I was under impression that midbass must not be positioned in there, but it might be my hallucinations….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 167
Post ID: 22222
Reply to: 21848
You are my hero!
fiogf49gjkf0d

Oh, might God, Murat, I am so sorry. This is the very first time when I got mistaken in assessment of internet audio hoodlums. I thought that you are  a Moron but after listening of your evaluation session that you so kindly uploaded and commented upon in so minute details: 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfkV66A7ZlM 
 
... I realized that you are a genius and I was a Moron. Evrything is great with your new experiments and your sound is so wonderful! Please quote me at your Russian site. You are the generalissimo of Russian horn installations and I think Russians need to put your face at their money. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 168
Post ID: 22223
Reply to: 22222
Evaluation
fiogf49gjkf0d
I had my friend visited (he is on video in red) and he asked to play his music to evaluate coloration. His verdict was - he doesn't hear horns!He never used horns because of coloration and was very skeptical about my project, but he said that it is first time he doesn't hear horns. And I've posted it because my readers always complain that may be my system is doing well only classical. So, I've posted also some vocal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVFU_NKwaE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RsRfYe5VrQ

But I don't understand what are you laughing about...
11-11-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 169
Post ID: 22224
Reply to: 22206
Thank you again for suggestion!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:
There should be an 111dB tap on the Lazy Ribbon, but perhaps you have tried that already.  Other than that, perhaps talk to RAAL to see if they can improve the sensitivity a little more with a transformer change (or something else)...it might be quicker than waiting a year for another amplifier.
Anthony, thank you again for your suggestion. I didn't even expect that it is possible.Alexandar confirmed modified tweeter for me:Let’s make a tweeter with 3.5, 2.5, 1.75 and 1.23 Ohm. That will give you 1.5dB steps, just like on existing tweeters and max sensitivity of 4.5dB higher than what you have now on 3.5 Ohm.
11-11-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 170
Post ID: 22227
Reply to: 22223
A false alert.
fiogf49gjkf0d
To Murataltuev:
 
Murat, do not worry about it, you are not too bright (audio-wise) to understand even the subject of this thread. I do recommend you do not waste your time neither to read nor post at this site. You of cause can read but since you understated read, heard and seen less than my Cats I wish do not hear at this site about your “progress”. I had enough idiots at this site who flooded it with by-products of their “audio practice” and I do not want juts waste of my forum space.   
 
To the Rest Readers:
 
Sorry, folks it was a false alert. I was initially under impression that the guy above is trying to build some kind of audio but he turned out to be just an internet buffoon with accidently acquired audio vocabulary.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 171
Post ID: 22228
Reply to: 22227
No problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
ok, no problem, I'll read only.Sorry if I was not very polite in my last posts.You did great job, anyway.
02-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 172
Post ID: 22504
Reply to: 21848
GOTO 146: Quite accurate prediction.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Some of you remember as a few months ago a Russian guy pup up at this site with GOTO 146 driver and wanted to build a midbass horns with them. I naturally took interest as I never dealt with Japanese 4” compression drivers and I though it might be a good learning vicarious experience. I did express some warnings about GOTO 146, not that I have my own experience with it but rather productive warning, something that in my view derived from the driver design. Eventually I felt that this Russian guy is nor particular worthy material for collaboration and I withdrew from his association. I still sometime monitor what he is doing and the direction he is going.  It is no surprise that he in his playback progress is running in his successes and failures directly along with the plot that I predicted to him months back. I found this “plot for retards” and this Russian guy unfortunately fits the bill. However, if analyze what he does and put out parentheses the stupidity of his action and his obvious disability to realize what he is doing then his actions and his results do objectively demonstrate something about GOTO 146 driver and what is the most important in a way demonstrate the value of my initial predications. The predications was about using GOTO-like drivers very cautiously as this over-magnetized topology might not be suitable for bass. This is very interesting concept that I was pitching in multiple threads including the electromagnet thread. From what I am seeing that Russian guy does indicated to me that he hit the problem I predicted. Without having my own ability to experiment with it I do not think I will progress in my judgment but the word of warning is still there: beware the overly controlled drivers as it might compromise bass softness. Sure there are way to deal with it by imposing different loading mechanisms but this is very murky subjects and you will be stepping in very uncharted waters.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-23-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 173
Post ID: 22827
Reply to: 22504
Only 146 is outstanding
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, just in case you want to try GOTO drivers, I'm selling my collection and can offer to you very good price.Sorry if not interested.Models I have:

17P>>

17FRP>>

16TT>>

555F>>

505TT >>

370DX>>

570BL>>

3770BL>>

188BL >>

>

all 16 omh  

10-23-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 174
Post ID: 22828
Reply to: 22827
Great, thanks!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Murat. I do not need neither the listed drivers nor 146 that you feel is work out better for you.  As initially told you your endeavor is just a waste of the drivers and it was very clear from very beginning that your infatuation with GOTO will be over very fast and you will move very fast to brainlessly admire a next hallucinary crappie invention of your mind. It is sad that you having a freedom with GOTO did not experiment with them sanely. It all was exactly as I predicted as you started before: brainless application of GOTO drivers, stupid and senseless conclusions and result assessments, barbarian Sound accomplished, discarding the whole project and them cursing the internet forums with pontifications about your GOTO wisdom and horn practice. If you member I called your Russian Angelo, after a Brazilian retard who does the same for years. Well, I seldom wrong and your story is the case to prove the point. So, feel free to call your drivers unused as trust me you never used them. 
 
 
PS: I still glad that you did go over the GOTO testing as you unwittingly proved a very important point of GOTO application.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominic
Montreal, Canada
Posts 69
Joined on 08-23-2006

Post #: 175
Post ID: 22913
Reply to: 22828
Told you so, or, maybe not?
I suspect you were both right.
We each have our own priorities, but I did find a couple of his youtube videos to be interesting, as far as one can tell anything useful from compressed video.
Not the point though really.
I'm more interested in this idea of bass hardness-softness and whether it's truly a question of magnetic hardness.
Your experiments were interesting, but as you accurately pointed out, Goto systems are without fail fairly badly implemented in concept, and so i don't think we can yet be conclusive on that extreme.
The fact that our man here seems perhaps to have given up on the project(?) seems to put the experiment yet again out of reach.

I think though, you might have been a touch hard on him, there was clearly something lost in translation, and he was learning, at his pace.
But then again, could have just been more money than brains.

I'm stuck in the same vicarious camp, because i can't even imagine spending that kind of money on any single component.

01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 176
Post ID: 22915
Reply to: 22913
Show must go on :)
I didn't give up, of course SmileI'm constantly improving my system without having any boundaries (including components cost).At some stage I build something similar to this site owner:

IMG_0039.JPG


It was a learning curve.Bass is still most challenging and now I have 3 ways below 300hz.2 of them is GOTO 146. Very pity that GOTO is not producing them anymore.
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 177
Post ID: 22916
Reply to: 22913
And result is audible
And result of my journey is easy to evaluate:http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 178
Post ID: 22917
Reply to: 22913
This all just a terrible non-consequential waste.
Dominic, there is no right or wrong about it as Murat unfortunately in this project not trying to peruse some kind of audio truthfulness but rather he is rendering the wretched fall out of his own psychiatric disturbances. The only truth in the whole project was my absolutely accurate prediction from the very beginning who he is and what he is building. This is unfortunately the realty of the beast.

 
Regardless the bass hardness-softness and whether it's truly a question of magnetic hardness. Sure that is an interesting subject, there are something that might be gone in there and that why I initially extended some credit to Murat as I thought it would be possible to play with the magnetic hardness problems vicariously. Observing the level seriousness he tackled the subject I understood that even talking with Murat is a laughable proposition and the zillion clips he uploaded everywhere is just an illustration of it. So, as far as I concern what he does with playback is not different then a monkey scratch his testicles in cage while somebody is calling it love.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominic
Montreal, Canada
Posts 69
Joined on 08-23-2006

Post #: 179
Post ID: 22918
Reply to: 22915
Maybe we'll agree to disagree
Do you have a website or blog where you write about your project? And the way it has been evolving?
In the sense that videos and sound clips with no explanations are pretty much masturbatory, i think i see why the cat thinks you're an idiot with no direction.
Buuut I see the acoustic logic in the overall format so I'd like to know if there was anything i can learn from your experiences (romy's opinion not withstanding)

I also agree with him in that you were maybe a bit quick to proclaim success, as i'm sure by now you have come to understand, seeing how much your system has evolved since. And considering the total span of time since starting this thread and the number of variations you've tried, are you maybe just throwing money at the problem and hoping it sounds good?

One thing I've noticed is that you've got almost no room treatment, that definitely sounds like you're trying to get lucky!

01-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010

Post #: 180
Post ID: 22919
Reply to: 22918
My way
I definitely know my direction and each step is logical. If someone can't understand, it is not my problem.But I'm always happy to answer any question.
I've ended up with 4 way system.
1. 20-40hz ported 21"
2. 40-100hz GOTO 146 in 25hz spiral horn
3. 100-300hz GOTO 146 in 120hz LeCleach horn
4. 300-20000hz AER BD4 in 650hz LeCleach
All amps are single ended pentodes without any feedback.
Whole story is here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/282736-goto-6-way-timealigned-horn-system.html
http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html
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  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  127580  05-20-2011
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  109636  10-29-2005
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  Good highs...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     148  961612  09-15-2010
  »  New  Plugin for drawing segmented petal horns i Sketchup..  Thanks...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  5906  08-15-2015
  »  New  Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..  Distance to front wall...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     68  142794  06-20-2015
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  893822  11-19-2007
  »  New  Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...  Room treatment...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     73  84433  01-20-2016
  »  New  The Kato-san's Goto system..  Brilliant...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     10  15601  05-23-2017
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