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11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1721
Post ID: 25971
Reply to: 25969
Again, how it works in my case.
 steverino wrote:
Later after the PP battery was replaced hum disappeared forever.

Interesting. What made you to replace the battery? The reasons I ask is a because an old buttery would not be different for powers supply then new one. They both would have near null impedance. What I presume that during the battery replacement you physically stressed the unit and whatever problem was inside was gone. Generally to argue the reason why it is creates the noise is a moot point as we have no assurance of the PP stability of operation from unit to unit. It might be that there is some unit out there that are faulty in term of noise or might be using a faulty part. Of coil that work in pulse mode has no shielding then it will throw a lot of noise in air.  With QA control that we have with PP everything is possible. As many unit I had I did not have any noise problem that I was not able to address by moving the unit further. As least it what I remember now.
 N-set wrote:
Romy, do you power your End of Life phono from the PP?? 

I have the same phono, with choke input PS for both the heating and the HV. 

1) If I plug the phono just to the wall, the noise just normal with PP operating Online some 2.5m away. Noise ok, no problems.

2) If I plug the phono to the PP at the same physical separation of 2.5m, all kind of hell breaks loose. Below is the spectrum of the phono output (with a shielded AC cable and PP in the Online mode). Switching PP to the battery operation lowers the noise practically to the normal level, but it's good only for 15mins of operation. 

So does Gold PP1500 does not want to work with choke input PS, like the first unit Romy tested?? 

Other minor thing - with completely no load (everything unplugged), the load indicator bar is always showing the minimal 25% load? Normal with Gold units? 

Yes, I have everything is plug into PP, including the End of Life phono. I do not know how the load indicator works. In my case all units did showing 0 to 100% looks like accurately. Regarding the noise. What does it mean “good only for 15mins of operation” what happening after 15 mins?  The 2.5m away is plenty far away and you should not have a problem. The choke input PS is not a problem also.  Most likely you have some kind of not detected yet ground loop. The phono and computer are typical suspects. I have once a lop over a computer monitor and once over the computer routing switch. Even now I have a very minor ground loop that is very clearly auditable of I touch anything metal at my TT. It is possible to deal with it but I do not pay attention to it as it is completely silent when I do not touch any TT metal parks.
So, again. Plug PP into wall, inside the ground. Do NOT list the ground on PP power cord. Plug an extension cord with splitter into PP, listed the ground on the splitter. Plug one by one your components into the splitter. If you detect the noise, then lift the ground on the offending component. If you can not then begin to lift the ground on the components that looks like not the cause the noise. In my case all my components are connected into PP and EACH of them have ground lifted. If I do not use the ground lifting adaptor, then I juts break away the ground pin on the power cords. Remember that in your system all components are connected with RCA ground terminal, so the ground in PPs is just a second pass and an opportunity to a ground loop. You should have playback components to be connected with one single ground point, the RCA jack is the best location to it. So, in my case my components have no ground at all in reference to PP or to wall. I think I have a few dozen volts between the ground of my components and the wall ground. It is not a big deal as it is stray voltage with no current. I do not touch the house pipes and TT tonearm at the same time? If I would like to be safe, then I might just run a single ground cable from a single ground point from my ungrounded playback to a poll in backyard. I do not do it now as in my current listening room there is nothing that connected to main ground.  Problem not the best from a person who have 3 small kids, but we are taking about ground loops now.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,250
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1722
Post ID: 25972
Reply to: 25971
"Ground" vs. "Ground"
On any USA electrical wiring system, ALL circuits are referenced to and mechanically connected directly to a common ground at all times via the "neutral" wire, which ultimately connects to the grounded bus in the service box. And all UL electronics are also connected to the house ground via their internal neutral wire. What is commonly referred to as the "ground wire" is a safety wire that safely drains away stray voltage from an appliance or circuit. When there is current passing between the neutral wire and the ground wire, there is a "ground loop", and when this happens in a gain circuit, there is vibration, heat and/or noise. The problems we have with noise in hi-fi are so myriad that covering the subject could fill a very confusing book. Basically, the Star Ground we talk about is a theoretical ideal and reference point, and it's not something that happens very often in a typical hi-fi system. In my own system I have everything tied back to the amps via RCA jacks, and all safety grounds are lifted, leaving the neutral wire alone to ground the circuitry. I also have to "bleed"  stray current from my phono stage via a dedicated ground rod that is "not tied" to the main service ground bus or UFER. I put that in quotes because the component chasses are always electrically joined if all the components are designed around a star ground to begin with.

Don't I remember that the PP dirtied the neutral and the ground wire, as well? This would suggest an all-or-nothing scenario, creating a need to plug everything hi-fi that draws electricity into the PP. It might also mean the PP is "quietest" when its own safety ground is lifted, at least if it's built around a star ground. I can use a battery to power my DAC without a loop, but, again, it is yet referenced and tied to ground via the ICs. I absolutely need "correct" IC shielding between my SUT and my phono stage. For reasons I still don't understand, I once grounded this IC shield to my phono bleeder with good results. But now, my Placette-made ICs that do that link now apparently have "integral shielding" that grounds to the outer RCA connectors at both ends.

The Big Issue with the phono stage is the combination of wide-band sensitivity and high gain. If there is stray current in that loop, whether voltage or EMF, it will be amplified, and you're gonna hear it. 


Best regards,
Paul S
11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 327
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1723
Post ID: 25973
Reply to: 25971
Battery malfunctioning
Romy, My unit went dead. I should note I have one of the old pre-move models. I brought it into my customary repair shop and they identified the battery and a small wire as the issue. They replaced them and the unit sounds better than ever or at least the sonics do. Obviously proximity hums occur with many different devices and I would not call them strange. I do not have that problem although the unit is only 3 feet away from the power amp. But the oddity per Adrian was that a strange hum/slight noise  in the SACD player and only in that player appeared a few weeks prior to the failure. The sound was higher than normal power cycle hum.
11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 488
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1724
Post ID: 25974
Reply to: 25971
PP GND offending and the charger noise
I followed exactly Romy's advice. I disconnected EVERYTHING from PP1500 apart from the Endoflife phono. The phono output was monitored  via RTA software on a battery powered laptop. There was only phono connected to the PP. [I don't have GND loops anyway as the only GND point in the system is the phono, all the rest being lifted & relying on the negative RCA terminals for the GND distribution]
Under these conditions:

1a) If the phono GND is connected to the PP1500 GND -> HEAVY NOISE

1b) The noise is somewhat diminished when PP1500 is on BATTERY
 -- Shorted MM input -> QUIET  -- Decca cart -> STILL UNLISTENEABLE, NOISE MASKS EVERYTHING

2a) If I lift the phono GND from the PP1500 -> ALMOST QUIET in ONLINE
2b) 100% QUIET on battery. Actually the output spectrum is cleaner then from the wall.

This all with the PP1500 below the TT, so some 1.3-1.5m from the carts and the phono.

So there must be some interaction between my EndofLife GND and the PP1500 GND, amplified when the PP is charging. I have no idea how it comes about as my Endoflife is rigorously star grounded inside.

I tried to diminish the noise in 2a) case as with the sensitive Decca it was still clearly there. I tried moving the PP away to some 3m. NO RESULT. The residual noise after lifting the ground propagates via the line, not through the air.

Summarizing today experiments:
-Lifting phono GND from PP helps tremendously -But there is still a charging noise in Online mode, not disappearing with the distance
-There are no mechanical noises - both PP and my Endoflife are as quiet as normal

Since my phono worked without problems in 3 locations in 2 countries in the past 10 years, I start to suspect some hidden problem with my PP battery charger.

PS The unit did have a minor issue when it arrived: One of the batteries was not fixed strong enough and was rattling inside and also got disconnected. I reconnected the battery before powering the unit up for the first time (there was some 30Vdc potential difference and a little discharge). Could that affect the unit?


 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 327
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1725
Post ID: 25975
Reply to: 25974
NSET - might be a problem
PS The unit did have a minor issue when it arrived: One of the batteries was not fixed strong enough and was rattling inside and also got disconnected. I reconnected the battery before powering the unit up for the first time (there was some 30Vdc potential difference and a little discharge). Could that affect the unit?
NSET, My repair tech commented that the design was poor around the battery and its connections. My wire problem was one of the wires near the battery. So it is quite possible that you have wiring damage or faults.
11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 488
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1726
Post ID: 25977
Reply to: 25975
PP Issues
Steverino, I've asked same question to PurePower who kindly contacted me: If a moving around battery could have caused the issue? Waiting for the answer. My quick visual inspection did not show any obvious irregularities though.
Andrian, I've read you had a problem with your PP2000 charging unit years back (2009) "the audio circuit that the PP2000 was hooked up to was creating a problem as a ground loop within the PP2000 charging circuit.  They have figured out a way to eliminate this but it requires making a new PCB to replace one in the PP2000. So they say they are going to make these and hopefully the replacement PCB will be given to me in a month." Has this been resolved?





Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 327
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1727
Post ID: 25978
Reply to: 25977
NSET
FWIW The wiring fault was determined by electrical testing not by visual inspection.
11-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 512
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1728
Post ID: 25979
Reply to: 25977
Pure Power Ground Loop
 N-set wrote:
They have figured out a way to eliminate this but it requires making a new PCB to replace one in the PP2000. So they say they are going to make these and hopefully the replacement PCB will be given to me in a month." 

As some here may recall, after my PurePower failed catastrophically, I sent it back to Damian for repair. Eventually, after a long while, they admitted they had possibly sold my unit and offered a replacement. After another very long while, it arrived. The new unit no longer had the same buzzing problem. There was some noise, but this resolved with properly positioning the unit away from the phonograph.
I still contend any noise (when adding Pure Power), based on the experience of myself and others, might be coming from a component in the PurePower unit that is experiencing intermittent failure, possibly mechanically loose, cold-soldered, under-rated for its voltage/current requirements -- who knows -- but especially when it is an intermittent noise rather than a steady hum, it is something that should be checked out before you experience total failure of the unit. 
Adrian
11-09-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 54
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 1729
Post ID: 25985
Reply to: 25979
Congratulations
Happy that you finally got your unit back. Over two years later and I’m still waiting for mine to come back.Bill Gaw
11-09-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 31
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1730
Post ID: 25986
Reply to: 25970
Masochism?
As one who loves this site for its vast information and the informed opinions of the proprietor I am fascinated by this thing which could be among the generator of the most number of responses here.
I open my email and there are a whole bunch of posts that should bring tears to my eyes from the lamentations but, then, this is audio so masochism is something we all engage in once addicted.

I have convinced myself I do not have power problems being in the northern suburbs of Atlanta but other than large isolation transformers - one for each channel - I have not ventured any further into this.
Needless to say reading of the trials and tribulations for EVERYONE who has purchased one of these things I can only assume they do something quite extraordinary that makes it worth the trouble.
OR it could be like that old story about British sports cars that they broke down so often because they knew their owners wanted to be needed
OR like a skit from Sat'dy Night Live when it was funny. Folks passing around a bottle of spoiled milk and sniffing it only to ask to smell it again.  All the while going on and on about how horrible it smelled.  Well, something like that.
I am especially distressed to hear of Dr. Gaw's experience.  Inexcusable and disgusting.
11-09-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 488
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1731
Post ID: 25988
Reply to: 25986
PP masochism
From my short encounter so far, when it works, it works great. When it does not, it's a hell. I'm waiting for reply from PP, perhaps I'm overlooking something (not cables and not ground loops).



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-09-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 327
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1732
Post ID: 25989
Reply to: 25986
Rick I believe you can disable email notices
The reason you get the notices that bother you is because you made previous posts to this thread. Perhaps Romy can indicate if the Email disabling can be limited to a thread or is universal.
11-10-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rickmcinnis
Posts 31
Joined on 10-18-2010

Post #: 1733
Post ID: 25990
Reply to: 25989
You misunderstand
I am sorry it sounded like they bother me - far from it.  I am glad to hear the sound of an active forum.
I was hoping the smile could be seen when reading my note.
It is just that with so many tales of woe from so few people one has to think that these things are downright mystical in their abilities.
I have no experience with what they can do.  Of course, I take Romy's word for it.  And Dr. Gaw's.  I am not sure I would have the stamina to put up with such a cantankerous product and I do admire those who are as determined as you are to get the sound that you can enjoy.

11-12-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 488
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1734
Post ID: 25992
Reply to: 25990
Well...
...in my case the problem seems to be a GND loop *inside* my End of Life phono. Thanks to the continous help of PP Richard, I started to suspect the terrible noise I'm getting actually may be the charging voltage of the PP el caps (indeed it is 100Hz sawtooth-like with exponential tails). It is damped to GND and should normally disappear while in my phono it reappears. I plan to dismantle and examine the phono thoroughly. Not sure if that qualifies as mystical, but after hearing PP with my digital and FM, you want to sell your mother to make this unit work.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-12-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 268
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 1735
Post ID: 25993
Reply to: 25992
Deja vu
Jarek, because the PP introduces different grounding schema into your system I did suggest earlier that the phono may require alteration to suit.  In my case, when the grounding schema was altered, one phono had a similar issue to yours and the solution there was to tie the phono chassis to signal ground just like they used to way back.  It worked.  Your solution may be similar, or it may be different, but I'm just putting it out there for you as something to try if it is not already setup that way...

Anthony 
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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 488
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1736
Post ID: 25994
Reply to: 25993
GND dances
Anthony, I didn't realize the potential of your remark, thank you. The chassis has been tied to the signal GND already at the birth as otherwise the phono would develop noise even off the wall. I have to go throroughly with a scope to see where the noise enters (not at the input RCA's - they are dead quiet).



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-14-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,250
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1737
Post ID: 25995
Reply to: 25994
Neutral Bus Stand-Offs?
Jarek, what you describe can happen if anything with voltage touches the chassis, or something might be arcing across a very narrow gap. I have seen part leads that went too far through PCBs, also carelessly fitted stand-off. Even the axis of a choke or transformer can make a big difference in a phono stage.

Do let us know what it was when you figure it out.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-15-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,250
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1738
Post ID: 25996
Reply to: 25995
An MIT Wonk Boils It Down
Here's a decent attempt to boil down basic "ground" issues. Generally speaking, according to best practices, grounding one's hi-fi is a systematic attempt to equalize the ground potential throughout the system at "zero". Again, phono stages are harder to deal with because of their high sensitivity combined with high gain. Include the cartridge, arm wiring, SUT and IC when considering the phono stage. My initial thought is that the PP changes the ground resistance for the phono stage, and that change is audible. Whether the change is a loop or just increasing resistance to where current "backs up" is for you to determine.

https://web.mit.edu/jhawk/tmp/p/EST016_Ground_Loops_handout.pdf


Hope this helps.


Best regards,
Paul S
11-15-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1739
Post ID: 25997
Reply to: 25993
You get the idea….
I disagree with an idea that PP introduces different grounding schema into system. I mean it does and it does not. Anything the in your power pass induce different grounding schema and PP not different. I personally did not experiences that PP introduces any unexpected grounding schema, at least if you use PP in the system in the way I always do: no PP own ground is used in the system in any way of form. Let leave aside the probability that you specific PP is defective. If it is then all bets are off. If you have no problem with noise with the rest of you system but only your phonostage then it is most likely the problem with your phonstage. The fact the PP might highlights the problem is kind of irrelevant. Generally I recommend to ground everything to a main negative bass terminal that sits RCA jack. Still in real world each assembly is different, different step-up transformets schemas and zillion other variables.
 
It is impossible to debug it over internet. Jarek you can use the pattern the I use using my soldering period of my life. It is very effective and I always was able to found ground problems. Turn the playback on, max out the volume with your Phono on and observe whatever noise you feel you have. Solder 10-15 inch 10Ga wire to you negative grounded terminal. Then begin to tough diligent points of you circuitry with other sides of your wire. You very fast will find how to bridge you ground in order to get rid of you noise. You might hold that wire in hands and just short different pars of grounds, but your hands might act as own antenna. You get the idea….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 512
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1740
Post ID: 25999
Reply to: 25997
Testing circuits for ground problems
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Let leave aside the probability that you specific PP is defective. If it is then all bets are off.

Completely agree. And I will say from the forum members here who have a problem, Pure Power usually seem to be an internal defect. It is supported by the simple fact that WHEN your repaired/replaced unit arrives, the problem is gone.


 Romy the Cat wrote:
If you have no problem with noise with the rest of you system but only your phonostage then it is most likely the problem with your phonostage.

Still, the phonostage can be notorious for amplifying any problems that exist. It is just the nature of it.  

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Solder 10-15 inch 10Ga wire to you negative grounded terminal. Then begin to touch diligent points of you circuitry with other sides of your wire. You very fast will find how to bridge you ground in order to get rid of you noise. You might hold that wire in hands and just short different pars of grounds, but your hands might act as own antenna.

This is a genius-level idea! It probably would have saved me many hours of re-flowing solder joints -- ROMY, you just made one of the crowning jewel comments of GoodSoundClub! 
(Obviously, please disconnect the electricity and drain all capacitors before soldering. Also, make sure you are testing only ground points!)

Adrian
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  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  Polarity checker, for convenience...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     7  78899  07-10-2005
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  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  118522  10-24-2010
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