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  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  346048  09-09-2007
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12-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 141
Post ID: 15243
Reply to: 15241
Injection channel shall do colors only, not space.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 AOK_Farmer wrote:
Here's what I've been trying. 8 ohm 4.5 inch full range Omega driver in a 0.35 cu ft sealed box and 6 mH coil 200 Hz electrical crossover. The main speaker is JBL Array 1000. This full range driver has my favorite *tone* of all I have tried. The cone is made of hemp. The juice is grape. So far (3 days) I like the results: More gripping musical presentation and more expressive. The instruments and singers still exist realistically but now within an expanded space. I need more time to evaluate but I think it's working. Makes me want to conduct!

Injection channel shall not affect the “expanded space”. The special impacts that you have are most like from time misalignment between the JBL tweeter and Omega driver. After the alignment add volume control to Omega and try to dial-in it’s output

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
AOK_Farmer


Marlboro NY USA
Posts 64
Joined on 07-08-2004
Post #: 142
Post ID: 15268
Reply to: 15243
Further along with injection channel.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Now that I have the Omega injection channel phase aligned I am finding it extremely interesting. I think I want 3 or 4 injection channel drivers/arrangements for the different types of music. The Omega works great for vocal and woodwind (which I listen to a lot) but is less effective for organ or brass and even less so for strings.

Have you a set of injection channel solutions which you can swap in and out as the musical content demands? Maybe a *honk fog* injection channel for the Strauss horns? I am going to try this. I will have to build a versatile frame to hold the differing driver/box arrangements. I think it will be very rewarding. Thanks so much for the idea and your extensive trials and encouragement.

Steve
09-17-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 143
Post ID: 18614
Reply to: 3833
Sexier Injection Channel box?
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I am slowly put Macondo back to the business a question come to my heard: how can I make the Injection Channel sexier visibly? As now Macondo is re-assembled and reinstalled but with no Injection Channel sitting atop. I extend no room for argument about the sonic benefits of my injection but I do ad mint that I like the parlance of Macondo with no Injection Boxes. I wonder if I can make the Injection Boxes smaller and more attractive.  I high pass the Injection over 110Hz, so why do I need such a large box? Can I cut it on half at least? I have the Tanoy ordinal boxes that I accidently did not trash yet, so if I cross at 110Hz then can I use them? They were kind of ugly as well but I might do some nice looking small boxes by taking a sow and cutting my current box off. I might build own small boxes if I can come up with sexy shape for it…

MacondoSmallInjection.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-17-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 144
Post ID: 18618
Reply to: 18614
Sexier injection channel?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
I travelled back from the Czech Republic yesterday and had lunch at the Pilsner Urquell brewery restaurant. A vintage wooden beer, wine or Cognac barrel would be the sexiest cabinet that I could imagine.
Regards,
Robin

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-17-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 145
Post ID: 18619
Reply to: 18618
Anti-horn shape cabinet?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Robin

I do not drink and the wine/beer cultural cult is a bit above me. I still do appreciate however a good moldy and decadent décor of wine cellar but unfortunately it would be very different for the style of the listening room that I am having and envision. A friend of mine (audio guy) did built large woofers in the actual wine barrels but runs a winery, so his listening room in context:

http://www.stoutridge.com

I was thinking to male it sort of anti-horn with cabinet recedes back. I need to come up with some kind of idea how to do it visually pleasing…. or not to do it at all…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-17-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 146
Post ID: 18621
Reply to: 18619
How Important Is Present Box to Sound?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Not that it matters, but I can't remember if that speaker was originally ported or really "sealed".  Some of the old drivers were actually put in "tuned boxes", for better or for worse.  I understand that your objectives for this driver afford you a certain amount of "slack", but it's still probably a crap shoot to find out how new dips and peaks, etc. affect the sound.  In any case, the present box works sonically for you now, so another box would be trial and error, cost vs. benefit, all the way.

Best regards,
Paul S
09-18-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 147
Post ID: 18626
Reply to: 18614
Horns continued
fiogf49gjkf0d
Why not enclose it in a horn shape? After all, it makes sense for the facing surface to be circular rather than square, and a cone will have the best structural properties, as well as having the closest kinship with the rest of the stack.
09-18-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 148
Post ID: 18627
Reply to: 18626
Holly cow!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 decoud wrote:
Why not enclose it in a horn shape? After all, it makes sense for the facing surface to be circular rather than square, and a cone will have the best structural properties, as well as having the closest kinship with the rest of the stack.

Holly Cow! Decoud, what a fantastic idea! How didn’t it come to me?! It might be a light decorative horn, aka Altec 7 MF horn, which would not be deep to attenuate any HF but to be visually complementing the rest of Macondo horns. Truly fantastic idea and it even allow unloading a bit the excursion from the Tanoy driver. Now I need to demine such an asymmetrical horn and find somebody who would do it for me. The design mode is on!!! Thank you, decoud, for the tip.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-18-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005
Post #: 149
Post ID: 18628
Reply to: 18627
/maybe an answer, maybe not
fiogf49gjkf0d
John Michael Le Cleach would be my first choice. Least intrusive "horn" I know of.
09-19-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 150
Post ID: 18630
Reply to: 18628
What I am thinking.
fiogf49gjkf0d

The La Horns of cause out of picture in my case as there are very narrow requirements in my channels that do not fit what La Horns offer, even though I do plan to use the negative opening from 1-3 sides and to have a transition to flat termination at the bottom. If John Michael would do a custom horn by my design then I do not mind to use his resource as wood maker but frankly I think I need to find somebody closer to home as the shipping cost might be prohibitive.

The idea that I have in my head shall comply with the following requirements:
1)      Shallow 7-6” deep horn with 10” throat and ~24” mouth
2)      The mouth located asymmetrically with the bottom of the throat at 2-3” from the bottom of the horn
3)      Sexy shape that would work “interestingly” alone with the rest of Macondo.

I do not it to be rectangular horn and I am looking for different shapes. Oval would be interning but to make asymmetrical oval would be a huge pain in ass. I need to do some circulations and to see if that type of horn would even affect anything.

Here is a very premature idea that I have in my head.

InjectionBoxe_newIdea.JPG



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-20-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 151
Post ID: 18635
Reply to: 18630
Design and implementation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Here is my suggestion:
1. Generate a flat template for an oblique cone, easily done using the free software here: http://www.tyharness.co.uk/cones/cones.htm
2. Roll a sheet of black clay, at the required thickness, and cut out the flattened cone shape.
3. Bend the sheet to form the cone.
4. Embed inserts for mounting the driver and back chamber with screws, e.g. from here (http://www.insertsdirect.com/)
5. Bake to harden.
09-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 152
Post ID: 18636
Reply to: 18635
Looking for a horn maker?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, decoud. My desire to make my own hand dirty with this project doe not exceeds my desire to have a new Injecting Channel enclosure. I would like to find somebody who would take my money and built for me exactly what I will spec.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 153
Post ID: 18637
Reply to: 18636
Audio intern
fiogf49gjkf0d
The frustrating thing is that those who know "how" to do things often have too strong an idea of "what" to do...perhaps you should offer an internship to someone young and idle keen to learn...?
09-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 154
Post ID: 18638
Reply to: 18637
A “driver with stupid wings”
fiogf49gjkf0d
 decoud wrote:
The frustrating thing is that those who know "how" to do things often have too strong an idea of "what" to do...perhaps you should offer an internship to someone young and idle keen to learn...?
Yes, the horn makers who have skills do have strong attitude what to do. However, there are factors that are on my side that shall make my case is irrelevant to their attitude. What I would like to do is not “horn” in normal sense and not proper driver loading but rather a “driver with stupid wings” or what the people from DIYaudio.com call “horn”. The whole notion of my Injection Channel horn is to make the driver do NOT see the enforcement of the horn as much as possible, so that is basically a contra-horn. I do not think that anything might be “learned” from this project. I would like to do it from some kind of light material and clay would be too heavy. A light wood would be perfectly fine not whop can do complex non-spherical wood carving have no idea. I do not want to pay for CNC job; in fact I would like to pay very little for this. I just will wait unit the opportunity knocks…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 155
Post ID: 18639
Reply to: 18638
Wave Guide
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have long thought to make something rather like this from thick, starched felt, partly for the "shaping", and partly  to delay the accoustic shorting.  I think it should open pretty fast.  It might also be heat formed from something like polyethelene, or it might be paper mache', and then painted to hide this fact.

Best regards
Paul S
09-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006
Post #: 156
Post ID: 18640
Reply to: 18638
Possible injection channel horn maker
fiogf49gjkf0d
Check with Autotech, the Polish company that makes fiberglass horns and thermo-formed aerodynamic trailer bodies.
http://www.autotech.pl/ 
http://www.horns.pl/diy.html 


jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
09-21-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005
Post #: 157
Post ID: 18641
Reply to: 18640
Third grade engineering class
fiogf49gjkf0d
paper mache  http://ultimatepapermache.com/paper-mache-recipes over a thin paper form
09-26-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 158
Post ID: 18673
Reply to: 18638
After all.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I know it might sound a bit moronic but it is what it is. I keep playing with playback trying to find out what is I do not like. While doing so I put my old injection channel back to service, juts to time-alight everything and to see how it works. You know, I have to confess that feel that do like how this ugly rectangular injection channel look like with Macondo. It makes it look look sculptural in a way. Perhaps I can put there a similar rectangular horn? Frankly, as many things as I have now on pipeline I very much would live it as is. If I find somebody who would do what I need to do for me then I would spec the project and would try it. I however will not do the things myself to make any changes as the acuteness of my visual dissatisfaction about the injection channel did come and did go.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
morespeakers2
Posts 9
Joined on 02-02-2013
Post #: 159
Post ID: 18981
Reply to: 3833
Injection channel and Romy's rules
fiogf49gjkf0d
The injection channel is the only thing about the Macondo that raises my eyebrow as a kind of "out there" concept and I have been meaning to ask about it for quite some time. I tried to brush up and read as much as I could just now on your experiences with it.


Now I really love "Romy the Cat's playback Rules" because I came to all the exact same conclusions independently of you and got really excited when I found that page as there is actually another human out there who really understands that some things should just be avoided in the interest of good sound and that there is at least one other person in the universe who came to the same conclusions I did after years of listening. 


Some of the rules are very easily demonstrated such as why you should not use a ported box if you want the best sound. Sorry I don't have a great classical music example to suggest but  I know the producer who recorded 1994 G-Love and Special Sauce album on Epic records. He told me they spent a week setting up the studio to record two track stereo direct to tape no mixing. Now the bass drum on the track #2 "Blues Music" is a highly reverberant sound with what sounds to be no deadening material of and kind in the drum. I takes just about one bass drum hit as the song begins on virtually any ported system to very effectively demonstrate why all ported boxes are second rate sound and this track shows just how bad they really are very easily as the same track played on a system not utilizing the back wave of the woofer usually has a chance to sound pretty good and very interesting at that.


Now I thought the injection channel was a passing phase and that you would eventually get rid of it but that does not seem to be the case. At one point I was planning to suggest an additional rule to you. In my experiences building many speaker systems for my self and others I have noticed the most focused results have come using only one driver element for each particular frequency range. If multiple drivers are used in one frequency range, I have found the sound always seemed to lack a little focus. This focus is not to be confused with what audio reviewers are always gushing about when describing the etched details of the current speaker under review but actual focus and clarity to the sound. 



So not that your ego needs to be pumped up even more but it is fact whether you know it or not, you display a genius level intelligence in the area of speaker design pulling out concepts from thin air that not many if any seem to be doing. It does not even matter if I or anyone else likes the sound of the Macondo, you have demonstrated to me time and time again you are very aware of the things that matter to high quality sound. So I am listening very carefully on your thoughts and experience about this injection channel concept.


Anyway after you living with the injection channel for some time it seems that any lack of focus that I would guess the channel might bring, far outweighs the tone benefits or "decompression" it brings to the table. Now I am asking does this injection channel somehow actually somehow counter intuitively bring "focus" to the sound even though I and probably many other would have guessed it might muck things up causing a little confusion to sound?
02-04-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005
Post #: 160
Post ID: 18982
Reply to: 18981
The key to everything
fiogf49gjkf0d
is to become better , more aware listener. The rest is a secondary issue and you won't feel the need to ask those questions .
There is always the issue of whats really possible technically speaking. I disagree with Romy's opinion that 99% of audio people are total
morons. I would reverve it to 20% od frequent chat room and audio forums members. The rest is very well aware that they are being served
cat food in the can but they assume that it's all the industry can do in present state of affairs. They just have no idea there is more to be had.
Personally I think Macondo is a very "unimpressive" sounding system and 20 % morons would be rather disappointed in how it sounds. I even
suspect that moronic part of me would be disappointed as well since I still have a need to demonstrate how grand whatever crap I haul into the
room can sound Wink
Maybe you can share what you find inspiring , what works for you and what your axioms are ? Everything what needed to be said about Macondo is
already here.
Rgrds, W
Page 8 of 10 (185 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 6 7 8 9 10 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The elusive “absolute tone”...  Breeze......  Playback Listening  Forum     24  239907  07-28-2005
  »  New  The “Primary Frequencies”...  Melody range and the other octaves...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  79124  09-08-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  45014  06-19-2006
  »  New  Great Cello Concertos..  János Starker passed away...  Musical Discussions  Forum     21  209911  07-04-2006
  »  New  SPUnisation of Macondo: how to catch own testicals...  Who? (shades of the old "musical" vs. "a...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  32346  02-01-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red 1960s: some sober reality..  The Summer Monitors?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  146670  02-15-2007
  »  New  The inflatable speakers dumping and no only...  Labyrinth?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  75243  05-30-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  682714  07-29-2007
  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  346048  09-09-2007
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  291239  10-28-2007
  »  New  Wilson Audio and the Moore's law..  Yep....  Audio News Forum     23  130416  04-26-2009
  »  New  Other Ways of getting Special Tone from a loudspeaker...  Paul S....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  90716  11-27-2009
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  115768  06-15-2010
  »  New  An educational Eugenie’s installation...  Some more......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  98862  07-15-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  18142  10-08-2010
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