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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» ... again on GOTO Unit drivers... (108 posts, 6 pages)
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  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  207968  05-14-2005
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  402942  07-29-2007
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  881740  11-19-2007
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  60884  11-03-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Sorry, no images any more....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     56  482686  04-23-2009
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1500029  07-26-2009
  »  New  Why GOTO do not care about time-alignment...  Sarcasm isn't my cup of tea...  Audio News Forum     7  39717  09-22-2009
  »  New  Audio-tekne's "Tone Quality Improvement technique&..  Crooked glasses...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     9  56602  10-10-2009
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  125865  12-06-2009
  »  New  Configuration from Italy: multisell++ and double model ..  In search of optimum.......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  64636  01-02-2010
  »  New  Multi-amping crossovering...  No input capacitor......  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  41991  09-24-2010
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 81
Post ID: 11624
Reply to: 11623
;-)))
fiogf49gjkf0d
Confess you added 24) at yr. convenience for this VERY evenience... ah, envy the infinite power a Forum Admin owns;-)


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 82
Post ID: 11625
Reply to: 11624
There is nothing to confess.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:
Confess you added 24) at yr. convenience for this VERY evenience... ah, envy the infinite power a Forum Admin owns;-)

I have no idea why I need to “confess” anything and what it has to do with “infinite power”. There are tones of the things that I generally mistype and when I come across the situation I add them to the list of the examples that I referred you to. If you search the site with the wards “break” and “brake” then it will be very selfevident, so I added it to help the to understand what to expect. If you feel that my objective to convince you or anybody else that I am a great typist then you are a mistaken. This battle I fought and successfully lost in my native language when I was 10 years old.  Hold on, was it battle or bottle? I am sure that the answer to this question is very meaningful to the subject of GOTO drivers.

The Vet.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 83
Post ID: 11626
Reply to: 11625
Just kidding...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Roman, no need to explain... I already got the irony in your list (reading instructions...)
 
But, most of all, I don't want to distract you from more interesting topics and speculations...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SbIonXD_QzA/SfaFPUW5rNI/AAAAAAAABtY/K_sey6uhU-A/s400/wve-white-flag-260.jpg


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 84
Post ID: 11641
Reply to: 11619
What is possible and permitable.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:
I agree with Mingsu questions about "what" physical area must be aligned, as every inch +/- gives sometimes different results...

Come on Stefano, you do not align the “physical area”. You guys are so preocupated with your drivers that you feel that alignment it some kind of magic GOTO-authorized ceremony. That is so fanny. In fact the Keith’s post where he quoted Jeffrey Jackson is very illuminating: they do not “believe” that electronics makes difference or time-alignment makes difference. I am sorry, but with the position like this they disqualify themselves from any attention from people who have audio IQ higher then diameter of GOTO’s throats in inches.

Regarding the alignment:  there are ton of information about the alignment techniques at my site and anywhere else, it might be done by many different way, there are some advanced alignment techniques that are less exposed but it is for advanced requirements. You do not align drivers but you align the out from the driver, the peaks of the sinusoid of the SAME period at crossover split. It might be done with impulse, RTA, noise-meter or by hearing if one know what to listen. Only after the system is aligned (at least MF) any listening is possible and PERMITABLE. I know, for someone it might sound ridicules but it is what it is. As you paid attention I do not even argue the time-alignment subject, I just take is as a natural obligatory requirement, as natural as humans breathe oxygen or Cats stalk prey.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 85
Post ID: 11647
Reply to: 11641
...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Roman:

since I came to GSC, I became more and more careful (at least trying) in proper choosing words,  due to the need of expressing myself in a language which isn't my own, some finesse and subtleties get lost, so further explanation or underlining or simply adding some thoughts is a mandatory... like in the above post.

About one year ago I was as far from laboratory instruments to be used as a fine tuning tool in my audio system as I'm afar from - as an acoustic and classical guitar player - electric guitar playing and what I learned in the last year or so is - as seen from my side - impressive.

I learned nonetheless to use for my (limited) task (fine tuning my speakers and audio system in my music room) the great IVIE IE-30 R.T.A. and IVIE IE-20 white/pink noise generator, I know what to look for and what to listen to obtain good results; for the above "knowledge",  I'm in GREAT debt with you, The Cat, Jeffrey Jackson and my german friend Dietmar Hampel, but I do not cherish, feticistically, horns, drivers or tubes or other gears, but I sure look for emotions and trueness, which I avidly appreciate and search for.

What I tried to say - quoting Mingsu - was an attempt to underline the sense of uncertainty coming the several "experts" statements having a "definitive" recipe for all - from tubes to time-alignment to VTA to... as I know nothing, I consider an educated-doubting a weapon and a friendly attitude 'til a direct experiencing this or that on my part.

The doubts involved in fine tuning an audio system are ligitimate, as every room and speaker and ear and taste is different and one thing is making drawings on computer or paper, and much harder and complex and time consuming and WAF unfriendly, is hauling BIG, heavy gears around.

Theory sure is important, but experimenting also to confutate - to some extent - theories is what brings true advancements in every field.

Anyway, I'll pay a visit to Goto's workshop in Japan in few days... will try to formulate the best questions (I'll possibly have the support of a translator) on the topics we touched (amps, x-overs 1st and 2nd order, active/passive, amps, power handling, fluxes, precision, and the like) and will report soon.


BTW... you made me to laught at your hinting to "audio IQ comparable to Goto's throat diam. in inches";-)

... dot, dot, dot...   


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
09-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 86
Post ID: 11653
Reply to: 11647
Hypocrisy, stupidity or just talking advantage of ignorance?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 twogoodears wrote:
I learned nonetheless to use for my (limited) task (fine tuning my speakers and audio system in my music room) the great IVIE IE-30 R.T.A. and IVIE IE-20 white/pink noise generator

You do not need white/pink noise generators. You noise meter or RTA that has at least 0.25dB resolution and a single sinusoid signal. Take two of your drivers, parallel the axis, install microphone at listening position, feed one with sinusoid in the middle of crossover point, add the second driver in phase, slide the driver until you get max amplitude measured by RTA. You might reverse the polarity and observe the max drop amplitude – it does as it down faster. Your objective is to find both of the drivers to pros the same period and co-center the summits of their period at the same timing. There is a lot more to it but very brief search brings a lot

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2899#2899

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4463

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=4460

BTW, if GOTO do insist on first order then their position about alignment looks even more idiotic, as with first order the lobbing and cross-modulations between the channels are highest and time alignment shall be the topmost importance. I see on their drivers they marked the contact posts with different colors, which suggests that they feel that driver polarity maters – big fucking accomplishment!  How come that they feel that driver polarity maters but the drivers timing is not? Polarity is 180 degree of timing, so if the driver is 132 degree off then which polarity would it be? If they feel that timing is not important then let discard the polarity as well, in fact most of GOTO use I am convinced do discard the polarity. So, what we are talking about?

 twogoodears wrote:
Theory sure is important, but experimenting also to confutate - to some extent - theories is what brings true advancements in every field.

I know very little about theory, in fact I never had any interest about it. I am applied audio practitioner: nothing more or less.

 twogoodears wrote:
Anyway, I'll pay a visit to Goto's workshop in Japan in few days... will try to formulate the best questions (I'll possibly have the support of a translator) on the topics we touched (amps, x-overs 1st and 2nd order, active/passive, amps, power handling, fluxes, precision, and the like) and will report soon.

I would not ask them about it – what the point? They sell row drivers and this pretty much it. I am sure that some of the Goto users have more knowledge about Goto drivers, their capacity and way to use them then the guys who currently produce them.  Their ideas about playback systems are bogus and they do not believe in amplification. I have a local audio shop: Goodwin High End that according to them prefer only with customers who come to them from Yellow Pages. If a customer is completely clueless what the high-end audio is and juts come to them from “another planet” then they gladly sell to them anything that cost $50K-$60K, buttering an ignorant customer that what he bought was “high-end audio”.  I think Goto does the same, with exception of completely idiotic hypocrisy that no one hold them responsible… because they do not communicate on open market and insist to be Masonic colt. (Ming’s fantasies about GOTO sell 240 drivers per year I think are fantasies; GOTO hardly has 240 users in the world).

What I am talking about the hypocrisy I mean what I mean. GOTO claims first order but do not “believe” in phasing. Strange as the first order has Bessel curve and minimum phase distortions.  GOTO claims the ultra-light diaphragm is critical but they do not believe in amplification. The advantage of the ultra-light diaphragm cone to react to minimum current and do not “believing” that different amps have different capacity to care minimum current is the same as to deny existence of gravity. This all reminds me John Dunlavy who was a leading voice advocating impossibility that speaker cables have any different to the sound of loudspeaker. At the same time his company was selling the fance speaker cables…

So, what GOTO has: hypocrisy, stupidity or just talking advantage of the ignorance of own customers? I do not know but I am not in the business, thanks God, to define it. Someone from web was trying to insult me calling me as “individualist”. Well I take it as a compliment. If I take any of the GOTO drivers for the ride than I would leave aside the whole GOTO know-how and whatever they “believe” in. I have my own individualistic believes, the believes where there are no differences or even ambiguity between practice and theory, where believes are based upon what it is. The Ca

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-22-2007

Post #: 87
Post ID: 11654
Reply to: 11641
Time-aligned again - physical or relative
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

If you look behind the physical time alignment and start discussion about relative time alignment, that is a good start. 

Thing puzzle me about your view and comment of GOTO system setup that you have seen on pictures or web.  How will you know they are not already in relative time-aligned even most of them are not shown as physical time-aligned.

Again, GOTO has never said to ignor time alignment but there are many other factors can be addressed which have no space limitation and can be taking care of first.  If one has the space and room and want to do the so call physical time alignment, they should do it but if limited by space, they should not stuck on this physical time alignment issue.  They should try to use relative time alignment for setup.

About the quote of GOTO's view on the electronic, it is an interesting topic.  It is really a chicken and egg question.  W/o a good speaker system, how will one evaluate electronic gear?  Same, w/o good electronic how will one evaluate speaker system?  To solve this question, GOTO design their own preamp, amp and active crossover to address this need.  I will not claim that GOTO electronic is the best but they are not shy to compete with top of line commercial gears.

About crossover - again - 1st order for active and 2nd order for passive - that is the recommendation from GOTO.

Ming

09-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 88
Post ID: 11655
Reply to: 11654
How Goto shoot itself into foot….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 MINGSU wrote:
If you look behind the physical time alignment and start discussion about relative time alignment, that is a good start. 

…How will you know they are not already in relative time-aligned even most of them are not shown as physical time-aligned.

….If one has the space and room and want to do the so call physical time alignment, they should do it but if limited by space, they should not stuck on this physical time alignment issue.  They should try to use relative time alignment for setup.

I am sorry, what does it mean: physical time alignment vs. relative time alignment? Again, Ming, you do great disservice to your hypothetic customers by stressing the faulty notion of “having space“ or not “having space“ for MF drivers. (Let leave the LF driver alone as it is more complicated subject). If person has no space for time for time-alignment of horns then nether horn nor compressions drivers must not be even considered and the person shall stick with direct radiators or to whatever. I would not even mention that all fear of “not having space” is greatly and absolutely artificially blown up by your own comments. Any, let me say it again: ANY MF/HF horns not time-aligned are sound wrong, regardless of the horn topology and drivers used. It has nothing to do with “having space“but with critically of GOTO users and the ability to know better.

 MINGSU wrote:
About the quote of GOTO's view on the electronic, it is an interesting topic.  It is really a chicken and egg question.  W/o a good speaker system, how will one evaluate electronic gear?  Same, w/o good electronic how will one evaluate speaker system?  To solve this question, GOTO design their own preamp, amp and active crossover to address this need.  I will not claim that GOTO electronic is the best but they are not shy to compete with top of line commercial gears.

The chicken and egg example is absolutely not applicable in my view to this case. I did not know that GOTO design their own preamp, amp and active crossovers but who he here what to have it from a company that does not “believe” that electronics maters. It is like the Dr. Earl Geddes who make absolutely idiotic statements that all CD sound the same, all sources sound the same, all amplifiers sound the same – the only that makes deference in sound is his little funny mini-monitor vs. any other speaker in the word.  Well, Mr. Geddes has his right to believe in what he wants to believe but would you care to ask Earl Geddes to design an amp for you?

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 89
Post ID: 11960
Reply to: 8048
The ‘twogoodears’ visit of A.L.E. Acoustic Laboratories
fiogf49gjkf0d

The images are clickable. The test and the commentaries are less informative. Still, it an interesting information.

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2009/10/wjaas-best-of-crop-ale-acoustic.html

The installation that the are shown in there are not something that makes me excited, something similar to what Brooks does from Midwest – pile up a bunch of drivers with not respect to alignment.  I do not know how those ALE sound (it ooks like “twogoodears” likes it) but I am certain they sound not as good as they could/should.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 90
Post ID: 11966
Reply to: 11960
Audio Sashimi
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Roman...

Yes, I liked it, as I liked Audio Tekne's (always based on A.L.E. drivers, by chance...), but because I "felt"  - more than hearing - the superb quality of emission, the smoothness and naturality of the music when passing through these drivers.

Much different results if these SUPERB drivers would be better tailored to a given room... as, fortunately, it happens sometimes.

The ideal owner of these great stuffs - and his ears and taste - are as important as the drivers themselves... imagine - a truffles seller few meters from a fresh eggs seller: in the chef eyes and mind it's like looking at a (possible) masterpiece, in the kitchen, going over the sought-after or basic food stuffs.

I heard the equivalent - food-wise - of great raw materials in a so-so recipe... but kindness and good-will a go-go was the sauce.

Please have a read to this http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2009/10/wjaas-japanese-debrises-or-afterword.html  - to say: many people I know in Europe are far, FAR beyond these overall results with MUCH lesser expenses.

An interesting experience it was, but - strictly sonically and musically wise - nothing to scream or to call at the miracle... nonetheless, a great travel and human experience.




"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
10-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 91
Post ID: 11970
Reply to: 11966
My memories about Japan audio.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, I know now you feel. I visited Japans twice. Although audio was not my main objective but I spent some time for audio. Even I was at that time less critical and less demanding then I would be today still I  was not pleased what I heard. Also, I was not pleased with entire protocol how I was able to socialize with Japanese folks. I have a woman with me who was a translator but she was not truly able support a conversation about complex subjects – so, it was very frustrating.

Since I became more mature and more experience with my audio interests I do not search for interesting sound out there. If I want interesting for me sound then I have it home. So, from others, I expect not the different sounds but rather different objectives. It is interesting to talk with people after listening what sound they showed but with the Japanese folks that I met in Japan I was not able to.

I was not thrilled with their piles of equipment, perhaps was thrilled but it was cheap idiotic thrill, that left very little. What was the real thrill was the huge wealth of phenomenal records that I saw in there. I bought quote a lot but now I wish that I would buy much more…

Do you know what was the most thrilling audio experience I had in Japan?  I remember I stopped by in one second hand record store somewhere around Tokyo and I saw a whole section of un-played 78s. I mean the 78s brand new “in paper”, deep black, with huge tool grooves…. If you heard the first play of the 78s and if you know what kind sound they offer then you know what I mean. I remember there was Toscanini and Horowitz play of the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No 1. It was Carnegie Hall play in 1943, know as War Bond Concert, when Horowitz raised money for US Government.  This 1943 concert was special as it was just after the Rachmaninoff deaths …. And I held the first un-played copy.  I also held the brand new, absolutely virgin, never-played record of Mattia Battistini from 1911. Can you believe the history of the 100 year old records that never was played?

Those memories are more fun to me than the meeting a mountain of audio equipment semi-stupidly arranged in semi-ignorant playback systems.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 92
Post ID: 12155
Reply to: 8048
Yoshimura Laboratories compression drivers on loose
fiogf49gjkf0d

There are two YL Acoustic Compression drivers flying around:

D-5500G, .6” lower MF, 100 Hz -7000Hz, 15W

D-3500G, 1” upper MF, 500 Hz -9000Hz, 15W

They are YL are pre ALE driver and they might be interesting for somebody who would like to experiment with such a thing. Be advised that D-5500G would need a very loooooong and very slow opening horn to give anything near 100Hz.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
serenechaos
lost alamos
Posts 86
Joined on 12-01-2007

Post #: 93
Post ID: 12156
Reply to: 12155
Flying drivers
fiogf49gjkf0d
does sound interesting. 
where are the flying from? 
11-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 94
Post ID: 12157
Reply to: 12156
Stupidity vs. honesty in upper-knee response.
fiogf49gjkf0d
They are everywhere, AA, Ag’gon, eBay.  They want $1.3K for 3500G, and around $3.5K for 5500G. For a while the 5500G was abatable in Japan for a bit over $1K. The price is not a factor however – the question is what to do with them? They need own playback configuration. Nevertheless, for the people who have no playback yet (or already) and would like to start from scratch (again) it might be an interesting. I for instance would like to hear the 3500G in 440Hz horn but I do not want to build a special horn to experiment with it. Also, they marked 3500G’as upper knee as 9000K, I wonder why they did: becomes they too stupid or because they honest.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 95
Post ID: 12427
Reply to: 8048
Reinhard about Goto Drivers.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I guy from Germany, Reinhard, sent my email that I feel worth to repost in this thread:

“But, let's talk about Goto. As the discussion is on for some three years, it is very urgent. As far as I can see - and read - (please forgive me) you have no idea of what Goto is capable of. Please, believe me, as a constant user of Goto for more than 30 years now (and been through to nearly all types of other drivers available and always upgrading to highest end. i.e. Goto Beryllium) I can truly testify: Goto is not only the best; they are the only ones to do what they do and how they do it. Point.

It is clear, that all Goto drivers are only as good as with what they are fed by amplification. You can prove that your own way, i. e. the squares of your signals you put into your drivers. If they are not really square, your sound will not be correct. As far as I can see, nobody has squares to feed his system. Who has those squares (besides me)? Then show me the squares!

Goto highest end makes you completely forget a system. Makes you forget the room where you are. Goto highest end makes you "being there". Yes, I have read you. It is against your philosophy. But here I am. And say that. And I can prove that to anybody who wants to listen to that.”

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 96
Post ID: 14544
Reply to: 8048
Some unconfirmed story of Japanese driver manufactures.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I was slowly looking for a compression driver that would go in my Fundamental Chanel down to 200Hz. The YL Acoustic 550N attracted my attention. Then I realized that it is the narrow throat type of the drivers, aka WE555, not exactly that I would like to use for Fundamental Chanel. However, what I was looking information about 550N I came across a Japanese site with interesting read:

http://www.tubebbs.com/viewthread.php?action=printable&tid=96321

It looks like it has a history of those “exotic in US Japanese drivers” and I am quoting it below. I do not know how accurate the information from user JJK, treat it as anything else coming from internet. Since the folks who sell that stuff do absolutely nothing to publicize the information about those expensive driver then it is what it is. I have to warn that I do not agree with some of the motives that JJK injects into his story about those compressions drivers but it is not my text and I just reprint it:

By JJK  From : 2009-2-8 23:43  ****************************************************************************

In the beginning was the Western Electric 555, still today sought after and going for high prices on the market. In 1926, lets remember us, it makes 82 Years by now, that E.C. Wente and A.L.Thuras projected it at Bell Labs.
It was unifying innovative and revolutionary solutions, still in use today !

They were rated 30 watts RMS, and a frequency response from 60hz to 8000hz. Of course the motor was not alnico, but a very strong field coil. At the gap , it developed 20000 gauss, which was extraordinary for it’s time. It was possible because of a mix of cobalt, nickel and other materials. For the first time, a tangential suspension was utilized, still today a reference.

And for the first time as well, edge wound voice coil was used. These techniques were not the invention of the two developers of the 555, but were used after their research. Another “ first time “ was the use of a phase plug. Of course, the one used in the 555 was far from being perfect. Note the different distance of the phase plug to the diaphragm, but bigger on the border. This was due to standing waves. Also , the diaphragm was not used inverted, as today is common. This configuration has a lot of advantages, but a important disvantage, which is higher costs to make them. Also, the diaphragm has a strange fold of the suspension part of the diaphragm. This is where the most rigidity is, since it is also the point with major variation of pressure. This solution helps considerably to lower 3th harmonic distortion. Another note : this driver had a efficiency of 30 – 50 % , which means 110db/wm, using 3 watts at the voice coil. The weak point of the 555 was the phase plug, very simple and not aloud the transmission of high frequencies. In fact already the following model, the 594, was a considerably improved design in this regard. In fact , the goal was to improve the treble capabilities. However, WE modified also other parts of the driver, to be able to produce it at lower cost, and to give easier assistance. The 555 was the starting point for the Japanese high efficiency compression drivers.

The 555 was the starting point of the compression drivers, and the 594 of all drivers commonly used today. At that time back, compression drivers were indispensable because of the low power of the amplifiers, specially for cinema and outdoor usage. However, even at this time, many enthusiasts were using these diffusors at home as well. These drivers had low power handling, and other constructive solutions, which made them suitable for home use. With time, the amplifiers improved power handling, and it was not indispensable anymore to use high-efficiency transducers at home, but only in cinema applications, P.A. etc. At the same time, the progress of technology brought important modifications of speaker design. At this time, horn speakers and compression drivers were used exclusively for cinema and professional use , were high power handling was important. In short, the modifications were important, and we arrive today. Many prejudgments of horn loaded speakers derive of listening to wrong designs and concepts. Modern P.A. drivers and horn loudspeakers are made for opposed needs to domestic use. So, they wont work well. High efficiency horn drivers for home use must be developed specially for this purpose. And this is exactly what the Japanese made. They started with the 555, and made improvements, remembering , that the homes had small rooms, the needed power was small etc. And they remained with the solution of the diaphragm not inverted, but directed to the throat exit and phase plug, because better. They didn’t care about cost, but only about the result. Important advantages of high efficiency is , that the signal information does not get lost, the distortion is infinitely lower, the diaphragms are extremely light, the needed power is ridiculously small. All reasons, that make high efficiency speakers for home use fantastic.

In the beginning were YL ( Yoshimura Laboratory ), and they became very famous. YL started with the 555, and tried to go beyond. Even today, if not produced anymore for many years, YL drivers are very common in Japan, and many used ones are available. YL let a important mark. All contemporary high efficiency speaker designers in Japan had their beginning at YL. Goto was founded 1965 by Seya Goto. Goto san was employee at YL Acoustic, which president and founder was Yoshimura San. In a short time, Goto got responsible for development and construction of compression drivers for home use ( hi-fi). Beside Goto, Endo San , founder of ALE acoustic, and Koizumi San ( founder of Onken ) were also former employees of YL Acoustic. 1965, after some important developments of drivers for domestic usage, YL ( which was not a small company, but rather making products at industrial scale ) decided to work with other products, more compact and easier to produce, directioning to finished speakers with folded horns. Seya Goto however, went the opposite route, developing more complex drivers and systems, with higher performance , without care of cost. In a few words, he wanted to produce new products , wanted to find new limits, go beyond the limits achieved at that time being. YL was not interested to go in this direction, so Goto left, and let Endo San and Koizumi with the development of YL.

Goto had in mind to make products, much more superior to the ones, YL had made in the past, products in fact, that would be the avant-garde of audio products for home use. So he started his independent research , and came to the conclusion, that the horns hat to be spherical, round, and straight. He came to this conclusion through mathematical / theoretic research, and as well through long listening sessions.

Soon after starting his venture, he met Takajo San, a famous guy amongst audiophiles in japan, and expert in master recording. Takajo San was also a passionate of hi-fi, and so, right after they met, he asked Goto to develop better drivers, with the ability to have higher dynamics and better detail . At that time, Takajo had a not very common opinion and philosophy, which today might make us smile : a audio system must be able to reproduce sound in a way, that it is indistinguishable to original sound. Takajo made a vast number of recordings, and compared them with his audio system, improving the results more and more. This influenced Goto remarkably. Takayo registered many times the noise of insects, because they represented to him very specific and particular sound, like a violin. The noise of insects is particular, repetitive, and rispid transients, very difficult to reproduce well. Takajo understood the importance of the transients , more than other parameters commonly used. So, the support of Takajo San was enormous, and permitted Goto to improve the horn profiles, to change the magnets, the diaphragms etc.

After this important and intense period, Goto presented his new products, with the promise of a sound, closer to the original sound, with the slogan : Original, and reproduced sound, must be the same. Since then, Seya Goto never stopped, and improved his products, even at a short looking, it doesn’t appear evident, the big step forward he made in more than 40 Years. Goto had in the beginning only compression drivers in his program, and not woofers. In 1965 the diaphragms of the drivers were of aluminum, like the best American tradition, from which he started. Amongst the first products were the sg17 tweeter , and the sg555 midrange. One of the first improvement were the substitution of the tangential suspension with a FRP film ( probably mylar ) : the improvement was substantial. Afterwards Takajo was fundamental also for the development of the first Goto woofer. At the time, Takajo used woofers special for horn loading, and made for him, from a TAD engineer. When one of the TAD woofers stopped to work , he searched for the TAD engineer, but the men had died , and TAD was not able to repair the woofers. So Takajo asked Goto to repair it. Goto observed intensively that object and understood that the development and production of a good woofer was perfectly in his ability. Goto never repaired that woofer, but developed one with a enormous magnet . The weight was 40kg. It was this way that Goto also started to make woofers, completing this way his offers, to realize a horn system, only using Goto Unit drivers. So the SG38W was born. Goto did find out as well, that horns had to be short, to have low distortion and a correct sound. So , contrary to all others, he choose the hyperbolic profile. This profile has a important characteristic : The impedance is constant almost from the cutoff Fc frequency, contrary to the exponential profile. This was the determinant factor of the choice of Goto, if however not the only one. Don’t let forget us the listening. The model SG370 , and SG16TT, have been produced without any change for 30 years, now. The SG38W is not the same today as in the past. The improvement of the Goto products went through various steps in the last 40 Years. Seya Goto founded his company with this goal in mind, to surpass always the limits, and this is what he does until today. Cost is not a important factor, he is driven by the passion of research, because, reproduced sound must sound the same as the original sound. Some improvement was to use stronger and bigger magnets, and the bettering of critical parts, with the introduction of very expensive but extremely well performing materials, like permendur, and last not least, with the introduction of diaphragms made of beryllium. Unfortunately, these drivers are also much more expensive.

All Goto unit drivers are hand made in Japan, including the diaphragms, with extremely tight tolerances, and exceptional craftsmanship. Really unique objects. The principal characteristics of the creatures of Goto can be mentioned in two points, that do represent the thinking of Goto:

1. low distortion. Normal speakers do have a specific coloration, which makes them sound better with one kind of music, and less good with other kind of music. This coloration depends on the distortion, the harmonics added to the original signal.
2. Transients. The response to the transience is fundamental. Normally a speaker system is projected to have a flat frequency response. However, many are not satisfied with these systems.
This is because the response in time domain has to be considered as well. Goto products do have a extremely low distortion and excellent transient response. Always with these two points in mind, Goto developed his drivers.

The actual catalog has a quit vast selection of drivers. There are drivers for 3, 4 or 5 way horn systems, in a crescendo of prices and performance. The products can be divided in 4 families : tweeter, mid-high, mid-low, and low frequency transducers. A standard Goto system has a woofer, working up to 200hz, a lower midrange covering the 200hz – 1000hz range, a mid – tweeter, covering from 1000 hz up to 5000hz, and finally a tweeter.

How to use them

A minimum configuration is 3 ways. These are not broadband devices. Goto has chosen the highest performance of each driver, but in a restricted frequency range. So the tweeter do not go lower than 5000hz, to reach 20000hz. And the mid-treble do cover from 800hz to 5000hz max. So the lower midrange drivers go down to 200hz, but do not go higher than 3000- 5000hz. So the mid-high frequency drivers can go up to 18khz, but their optimal frequency range goes only up to 6000hz. Since Goto drivers are so expensive, many do buy only one pair of a certain frequency range, and use other brands to cover the other frequencies.

A interesting topology is to use a Altec 416-8A with a Goto SG505 midrange driver, and S150 horn, and SG160 tweeter. Crossover could be 300hz and 5000hz. One important further improvement could be afterwards the utilization of a mid-treble driver, like the SG370, to cover between 2500hz and 8000hz.

A second option would be , woofer the same, Altec 416-8A, with SG370 mid-high driver , ans S600 horn, and tweeter SG160. Crossover could be 800hz and 5000hz. This second system would cost less. The further improvement would consist in using a SG505 and S150 horn. In both cases however, the drivers would be used at the limit of their capabilities.
A 4way system would be better, to be used with Goto drivers. To listen to a Goto horn system, is a worth while experience. A entirely new universe can be discovered. After such a experience, many opinions , held before, vanish. It’s without any doubt a remarkable experience. So last not least, I invite all of you to make the effort, and to go and listen to a Goto horn system .

Here are some correction based on GOTO and my experience for a 3 way system.

The SG505TT with S150 horn should only cover from 200Hz up to 1kHz - that is recommended by Mr. GOTO. To use SG505TT in a 3 way system, one should follw that advice or choose to use different horn. If choose S200 horn, the crossover can be 270Hz to 11000Hz ~1500 Hz. If choose S300 horn, the crossover can be 400Hz to 3000Hz. If user want to cover up to 5000 Hz, the SG570 + S300 horn combo is better. The best of such application is SG5880S + S300 horn to covr 400Hz to 5kHz. This way, the GOTO tweeter can cover 5kHz and up.

Here is another type of application for a 3 way system, same woofer of choose but SG505TT + S200 to cover 270Hz to 1kHz and SG370DX +S600 horn to cover 1kHz and up. The SG370DX can cover up to 18kHz and using it with 1kHz high pass filter. This will give the best low-mid range performance and still have good 1kHz to 5kHz range and also keep the tweeter range(5kHz up) acceptable.

Of course, the best is GOTO SG38WNS(200Hz down) + SG505TT and S150 horn(200Hz to 1kHz) + SG370DX and S600 horn(1kHz up). For space concerned user, S200 or S300 hron can be use by need to up shift the crossover to 270Hz or 400Hz.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 97
Post ID: 15712
Reply to: 8048
Copression drivers Multiamping with gainclones?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I read at twogoodears’ blog that he is considering changing his Class A SS amp gainclone Multiamping:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2011/03/multiamping-hell-or-heaven.html

Interning direction to do, I wonder why he feels a need to do it. It would be more interesting if he adds Class A tube amps to the mix. Well, I think the first thing the he needs to do is to remove that extremely annoying Pageviews header from his site but it is beside the point.

Anyhow, you might follow the twogoodears finding in this gainclones journey. I hope when he get there he will be write about sonic result in details instead of posting an irrelevant picture and a drawing a few Asian hieroglyfers.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 98
Post ID: 15713
Reply to: 15712
An irrelevant reply...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Roman... you WELL know I'm not an in-deep speculator, lacking the "technique" needed or simply the skill;-) to do so... I honestly consider hinting and provoking any interest a much welcome reaction... the "gainclone" project - as I wrote - will be for a friend, BUT I'll sure give a try (how could - also in my un-technical, music-oriented approach - to miss such an experience?!?!).
I'm currently quite satisfied - pros & cons - with the solid-state Class A quadri-amping vs. SET/triodes amps, now unused on a shelf... but, as you pointed out, in a way or another, it's a journey, which is, for me, also the goal and... no, will not annoy you and yr. readers with... those "irrelevant" runic pixes and the like;-)))
Will try to keep you posted with future findings and experiences.
 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
06-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 99
Post ID: 16472
Reply to: 8048
French translation to English from Japanese. Oh, boy!
fiogf49gjkf0d

I got this link from I believe AU site that dedicated to some kind of DAC that they have to themselves as another Messiah. I do not know what the DAC is about and made a few posts in there regarding a speaker setup. The link is a French translation of a guy’s expression of Goto setup.

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fblingblingthehorns.forumactif.net%2Ft3-ma-vie-sexuelle-ou-comment-j-ai-ecoute-un-systeme-presque-full-goto&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

I am not convinced but I have feeling that I heard this system 10 years back. It was a different setting with all Goto drivers but I think it was the same room. I can’t not be certain however.  Regardles, an interesting read…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 100
Post ID: 16846
Reply to: 8696
What was your reasoning?
fiogf49gjkf0d

KCCT82,

I have saw at the DIY Audio forum that you are going to the full Macondo-like configuration. There is nothing wrong with it but I am a bit confused with the amount of horns and drivers and with the frequency you change them.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=12178

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=10333   

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=8696 

….and now that (from your post at the DIYAudio: “The thread: Best 8" to 12" driver for 130hz tractrix horn”)

KCCT82_Macondo.jpg

So, KCCT82, if you do not mind, then can you lay out what horns and drivers you used, in which configuration and the most important: what motivated you to change from one combination to another?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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