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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  455607  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  426107  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  386293  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  88164  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  26252  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  77571  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  26219  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  48372  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  107806  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  12968  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  10241  10-27-2010
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 7034
Reply to: 7032
The “critical” motors for heavy belt turntables

That is a whole another subject all together. I truly have no strong opinion on the subject but I do hear a lot of talking noise about the “quality” of motors for heavy belt driver turntables. My idea is that with a sufficiently heavy platter and proper tension of belt the influence of motor should not be issues for sound. Some people disagree and invest a lot of efforts, or at least talk into the motors. Go figure….

AC motors, DC motors, synchronous, asynchronous, brushed, brushless, big and powerful motors, under-powered motors, and motors with heavy flywheel… whatever people use. A friend of my a few years ago wanted to manufacture extremely advanced TT and he invested months of searching and huge financial efforts into founding of a “perfect motor” for TT. He calmed that it is virtually imposable to found a “right” motor for TT. Eventually he found some in Austria I believe some old new stock motors that he claimed “are the only one type of TT he have seen that could do the job”.  I have no idea what his problems with motor were, as well I am not exactly compostable with his technical justification but he did invested a LOT into the notions of “perfects” TT motor.

Interesting that I have purchased from him one of those outragesly expensive “unique and perfect” TT motor, more expensive then the cost of some turntables in many hi-fi installations. I made that “unique” motor to drive my Micro 8000 TT and… I heard nothing different. There was literally no impact if it was a different motor, so the “unique” motor is sitting in my storage….

I think that all fantasies about motors in case of use of heavy TT are not warranted...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 7580
Reply to: 40
The 47Lab’s ways.
I stopped yesterday at Borders and looked through current Stereophille magazine. It looks like 47Lab came up with their turntables. In the magazine there was an article about the TT by Mike Framer. Framer is the dirty Pampers of audio and I routinely ignore his writings but flipping the pager further I found an interesting note from 47Lab owner of designer (I have no idea who it is) about the 47Lab’s turntable objective. Basically he proposed to make TT very live from the viewpoint of isolations, damping and vibrations and to put a disk and a needle inside of the “live” and vibrant environment.

The idea is not as bogus as it sound but I do not believe that this might be accomplish on production series model as there are so many “on location” variables involved. So, I fell that commercial initiative itself is faulty but the idea as an inspiration I think is very valid.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 63
Post ID: 7613
Reply to: 40
The TW-Acoustic turntable.

Actually it is surprisingly interesting. It is a German company and they do a fascinating and it appears to be appealing turntable

http://www.soundscapehifi.com/tw-acustic-raven-ac-pics1.htm (you can click the images to enlarge them)

I like the configuration: simple and with no-nonsense. The base looks like polymer presumably with solid mass. The platter is steel-type, presumable non-magnetic. The TT has not too overlay sophisticated bearing but the top layer of platter – the brose layer is decoupled from the bottom steel layer with polymer layers. I am sure that if the density and mass of that polymer layer to tune properly then the design might yield very interesting results. I like the idea quite a lot.

The same company does the 3-motor version that I believe is foolishness…

http://www.soundscapehifi.com/tw-acustic.htm

…but the initials direction of the TW-Acoustic I found quite fascinating. I never seen it or heard it but it looks like it is $10K turntable - very much worth attention.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 64
Post ID: 7614
Reply to: 7613
TW
Romy, Thomas  Woschnick makes superb turntables, I bought one with my own money, I don't sell them! It has the pitch stability of a DD but with far superior dynamics, it is a no nonsense design, superbly engineered and manufactured. Keith.
06-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 65
Post ID: 7616
Reply to: 7613
Interesting because presumed +/- simple (for a change)?
Tough to find anything without a gimmick or three these days, for sure.

Well, I wonder about a few things, like the 1/8" "round" drive "belt", the copper surface (why copper, other than exclusivity?), and I also wonder if there is a provision on either bearing face to retain and redistriubute displaced lubricant, because I didn't notice anything like this.  Additionally, if they are on the right track with their approach, then why do they think their top model needs 3 motors?  This MIGHT put this particular model into the "Accidental Success" catagory, right along with most other decent audio "products".

Also, still griding the same old axe, are TT manufacturers really saying vacuum HD does not help, or are they just avoiding  it to keep costs "in line"; or are they just not dealing with it?

Still, I think materials choice here is better than the "carbon fiber" for this application, although if polymer, then I think sintered material is best, at least according to tap tests.

But it is likely better than solid acrylic (also according to "tap" tests).

Nice arm mounts...

Still looking for the Ultimate Turntable...

Paul S
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 7625
Reply to: 7616
The TW’s idea of making active turntables.
Paul,

What attracts me to the TW TT is the idea that it is possible to discard anything that we might consider important but to make the platter as a sandwich what the bottom of the platter care bearing but the top of the platter is decupled from the bottom by some kind of anti-resonance layer. The concept I think is superbly powerful. It to plug into the game some very serious materiallogists then I think it might be possible to make an collection of the insertion rings with different level of viscosity and energy-transfers characteristics that might be placed between the bottom and top of a platter and tune the sound of turntable to what is necessary. Very cool idea of making active turntable instead of staticly-made design. Pretend that you get a TT base with a collection of 10-20 insertion rings and you in your own room ( considering how your TT install, what arm, cartridges, and zillion other criteria that influence your sound) is able to tune the TT to sound neutral in your specific circumstances. After you done you return the leftover rings to the manufactures. I think it is incredibly powerful concept, Very liberating concept!

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul Costa
Posts 11
Joined on 04-30-2006

Post #: 67
Post ID: 7632
Reply to: 7625
TW
TW Acustic latest website here only in German though.  http://www.tw-acustic.de/00000198640aab305/000001985b0e5e29a/index.html

I have had the AC single motor for almost two years now.  Coming from an SME 30 I personally enjoy the TW more and find its pitch stability superior to the SME.  It can handle long or short tonearms and more than one as well.  Once set up not much to check other than speed which has never drifted for me.  Nothing else to touch once level it stays there etc...

Aparently the new powersupply for the motor makes it sound even better, but I have not heard it or the three motor.  I would like to hear the three motor but really do not have any interest in owning it.  Much debate on the synchronization of the three motor tables, some folks say it deos more harm than good.  But TW uses only one belt and the belt has minimal surface contact with the platter perimeter.  How it makes any sense I do not know.  They say it has a bigger sound and better pitch stability and more torque with less belt contact.
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 68
Post ID: 7634
Reply to: 7632
The wickedness of ‘smart’ TT’s power supplies
 Paul Costa wrote:
Aparently the new powersupply for the motor makes it sound even better, but I have not heard it or the three motor.  I would like to hear the three motor but really do not have any interest in owning it.  Much debate on the synchronization of the three motor tables, some folks say it deos more harm than good.  But TW uses only one belt and the belt has minimal surface contact with the platter perimeter.  How it makes any sense I do not know.  They say it has a bigger sound and better pitch stability and more torque with less belt contact.

Paul, I have a lot of attitude toward it and I believe that 3 motors, 5 motors, 543 motors is very idiotic direction. Why a minimal surface contact with the platter shell be better? A belt applies moment to platter only in the area of initial attack of platter. The rest of the belt juts lay on plate with no effect at all. Why we need more torque in belt moment? We need opposite - as soon the platter hit it;s cruise speed we need less torque. I also do not know how all that PS paranoia for TT motors makes any sense. You see: those types of the tables, with platter of over 10kg have absolutely enough stability from a passive, regulated low-torque motor. They are stable and do not worry about the stability. Then the designers introduce the sophisticated systems of the motor management, with servo, with sensors, with feedbacks… you name it… all those extra intelligence in motor make a bad damage to sound of TT. When a single belt drives a relatively heavy platter with low BUT CONSTANT torque then the micro-beating in the bearing is stressed on one side and the TT is in a perfect dynamic equilibrium. As soon the torque begin to fluctuate then the TT’s bearing jumps out cruise beating and all hell get loose. The CONSTANT torque in a way biases the platter bearing. So, I see all conversations about better PS in TT as marketing BS the has absolutely no relation to actual sound

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 69
Post ID: 7635
Reply to: 7634
Belt torque
Wow, I never thought of that before.  But you could be right.  Perhaps the only section of belt contact that matters is that last inch or two before it leaves platter.  Clearly the belt does not push, it can only pull.  And if belt has some elasticity, then you are right, and only the last few inches.  Then again, too little contact and the belt may slip.

The concern about pulling the platter off bearing axis has always been an issue for me.  That is why the two motor system that has pulleys on both sides of platter can help.  It does not add an extra lateral force on bearing.

I've seen and heard the Raven tables, met the designer.  He puts everything he can into them.  I believe the copper was chosen for sonics, not because it looked different or had good thermal or conductivity parameters.  The tables are extremely well built, and appear to be machined to extraordinary tolerances.  If I had the cash, I would not hesitate to buy one of them.  They deliver a lot of dynamic range.

jh
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 70
Post ID: 7636
Reply to: 7635
Anticipating "problems"
Jim, isn't the idea is to do the bearing so the nominal (and constant) side load is OK, versus trying to "control" all speed and balance parameters with tricky electronics and/or multiple drives?  As near as I can tell, platter inertia makes nominal errors of a decent low torque motor +/- a non-factor, as opposed to manic attempts to elevate motor function to "perfect speed control", let alone adding "balance" issues.

It just seems like lead or some type of heavy sintered plastic/resin/composite have got to sink vinyl (and resist other sound) better than copper, which last I checked rings like a bell.  And Romy's "tune-able" platter/interface is genius, the only way to fly, now that I think about it.

But then,  I have never yet spoken with or read a blurb by a TT designer who couldn't "explain everything".  And of course the smart ones explain everything better ;>Wink

I grant that it looks expensive, all right; a real piece of work...

Best regards,
Paul S
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 71
Post ID: 7637
Reply to: 7636
Copper

I'm not convinced a constant side load on bearing is good.  It causes assymetrical wear.  Just seems to me a center balanced bearing with no lateral loads would be better.  Merely an intuitive hunch.

As for the copper, yes, it will ring all by itself.  But reaction is much different when sandwiched or clad.  I think what the designer is trying to do is an impedance match or translation.  We go from soft vinyl to a hard and damped sink.  Putting the vinyl directly onto the mechanical sink is not right.  The idea is to convert from one impedance to another in a broadband manner.  Same as with a horn!  That is what rubber or felt mats do on most tables.  The copper on the Raven replaces the mat.

jh

06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 72
Post ID: 7639
Reply to: 7637
"No lateral loads"
And what, really, is the "wear factor" for a TT side load?  At least you can +/- "trap" the bearing that way, and certainly it can be engineered to accomodate?  'Just the Ockham in me talkin'...

I like the sandwiches for certain types of damping/isolation, but someone is going to have to show me how the "impedance conversion" here actually works with purely disparate materials, especially right at the point of disc/platter interface, without leaving something to get back (to the stylus), particularly with the usual/typical "loose" disc.  I have seen/heard everything from glass to "dots" to wood, cork, paper, rubber, felt, etc., etc., and I think my main problem with copper is that it just seems like it was basically "intuited" and/or pulled out of a hat as it may/may not relate to vinyl compounds.

Since I've already bought into sintered materials, I hope it's clear that I like the idea of "broad band" and "sink"; but wouldn't the path at least begin with a closer match to vinyl?  In any case, I have never seen anything rigorous on this, TTs being at least 50% snake oil; more expensive = better art/longer blurb...

Best regards,
Paul S
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 7640
Reply to: 7637
Copper, assymetrical wearing and the theories.

 hagtech wrote:
I'm not convinced a constant side load on bearing is good.  It causes assymetrical wear.  Just seems to me a center balanced bearing with no lateral loads would be better.  Merely an intuitive hunch.

Yep, the center balanced bearing is certainly better but dues it exists in a real word. I would say it never exists. The assymetrical wear is night not be good but… it is where the bias of a platter with a belt of constant torque makes the wearing irrelevant.  If cause they are all hypothetic theories and how it all works in a real word I have no idea.

 hagtech wrote:
As for the copper, yes, it will ring all by itself.  But reaction is much different when sandwiched or clad.  I think what the designer is trying to do is an impedance match or translation.  We go from soft vinyl to a hard and damped sink.  Putting the vinyl directly onto the mechanical sink is not right.  The idea is to convert from one impedance to another in a broadband manner.  Same as with a horn!  That is what rubber or felt mats do on most tables.  The copper on the Raven replaces the mat.

I agree that it is not advisable to use copper without a mat. When I was in Japans I had a dinner with Micro-Seiki designer and I ask him why some of the identical Micro TT have copper or steel platters. He explained to me that copper platter by nature have idiosyncratic colorations that he felt was it a offset for SS electronics of 70s and 80s. I used Micro a few 1500, 3000, few 5000 and 8000. The 1500 had steel and I was able even to lay the record on the platter. Other 1500 with copper platter were too colored. I never was able to play the 5000 and 8000 with any heavy platters, in fact the 5000 need a special platter.

So, I think that TW’s copper top is not a big deal. The most important is how the TW’s people made and tuned the middle insert of the platter – here is where all hart of this TT lives in my view. If they “voiced” it interestingly then it shell be an interesting turntable. How much elections they stuffed in PS and how many motors they made their customers to buy is irrelevant and serve only the objectives of Framer-level BS literature.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-22-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 74
Post ID: 7643
Reply to: 7625
How to take the TW’s idea of active platter further.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
What attracts me to the TW TT is the idea that it is possible to discard anything that we might consider important but to make the platter as a sandwich what the bottom of the platter care bearing but the top of the platter is decupled from the bottom by some kind of anti-resonance layer. The concept I think is superbly powerful. It to plug into the game some very serious materiallogists then I think it might be possible to make an collection of the insertion rings with different level of viscosity and energy-transfers characteristics that might be placed between the bottom and top of a platter and tune the sound of turntable to what is necessary. Very cool idea of making active turntable instead of staticly-made design. Pretend that you get a TT base with a collection of 10-20 insertion rings and you in your own room ( considering how your TT install, what arm, cartridges, and zillion other criteria that influence your sound) is able to tune the TT to sound neutral in your specific circumstances. After you done you return the leftover rings to the manufactures. I think it is incredibly powerful concept, Very liberating concept!

I would like to take the idea of the TW company further - just a pure fantasy.

pretend we have the same platter at Tw has with mass-loaded bottom, light top and middle anti-resonance section. The anti-resonance section is not the polymer that TW uses but a two sandwidges of light multilayer mater similar to what Kevin Tellekamp uses - a chemical saturated foam that resonates ant temporary hardening at given frequency. Those two sandwidges are divided by air bubble. Now, we install the TT, set up and then we attach to the platter a bicycle air pump and begin to pump air into the air bubble inside the platter. The air bubble with the raise of pressure presses the side of the sandwidges, changing the frequencies where the sandwidges operate. So, we effectively implement a situation where a platter might be fine-tined for the specific ant-vibration characteristic that might take place in a given TT situation. BTW, the same sandwidges-air-sandwidges decupling might be used between a TT’s base and the tonearms….

If it works then would you like to take it further: be my guest. Let the fantasy to fry and let call the concept as Active Suspension.  Pretend a TT with Active Suspension, eclectic compressor and high precision manometer shadowing psi in the platter bubble. Then pretend an electromagnet at the bottom of the base with an anchor making a mechanical ping to the body of TT. Then a phonostage has a scope hat allows read from the cartridge the bottom base ping. By modifying the pressure of the bubble and changing the ant-vibration and damping characteristics we monitor on the scope a regular impulse response of the entire TT suspension. We can even set a desirable pressure for a given records thickness, pressing type, type of music… whatever….

Rgs, The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ducatirider
Posts 3
Joined on 07-07-2008

Post #: 75
Post ID: 7756
Reply to: 7643
Vibration Control - too much of a "good" thing?

newbie here but this interests me as i have the baby raven one.  the platter of the ac is hollowed out and filled with a gel and then topped with the copper "mat".  why is this important?  because vibrations exists is 2 forms, s-waves or rolling waves and p-waves or compression waves.  in a fluid, s-waves do not exist (think about it, how can a fluid roll?).  this leaves just the p-waves.  as the p-wave passes through the different materials, some will be refracted and trapped in the boundary layer, some will be attenuated and continue on it's path and some will be reflected.  reflection is what we want to control.  this design eliminates much of the vibration propagation but one needs to be careful not to make the table sound too dead or there will be lifeless sound with no dynamics.  so voicing becomes as much an art as a science.

the raven one platter is homogenous, made of one like material.  it still sounds great though.

07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ducatirider
Posts 3
Joined on 07-07-2008

Post #: 76
Post ID: 7757
Reply to: 7637
Precession
a load on the side of the bearing could cause an elliptical rotation.  since we are dealing with micro-engineering the effect is likely audible.   Arthur Khoubesserian of Funk Firm uses a single motor with 2 additional pulleys to even out the lateral bearing force.  this idea eliminates the need for 3 motor synchronization.
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 77
Post ID: 7758
Reply to: 7757
To balance the elliptical rotation.

 ducatirider wrote:
a load on the side of the bearing could cause an elliptical rotation.  since we are dealing with micro-engineering the effect is likely audible.   Arthur Khoubesserian of Funk Firm uses a single motor with 2 additional pulleys to even out the lateral bearing force.  this idea eliminates the need for 3 motor synchronization.

Yep, I never was a big fun of 3-motor synchronization; in fact I feel that multi-motor idea is very bogus. If to pretend that we do have elliptical rotation then the fact itself that we have it is not a big deal. The bad thing is beating of spherical axis from one side of elliptical to another during the palter spinning. If a spherical axis has elliptical freedom but sits in one side of ellipse then it would be as good as no elliptical beating is available.

Fist I feel that an idea of a single motor itself is something that would keep a spherical axis leaned to one side of a hypothetical elliptical wearing of out bearing. The moment is continually applied to one side of platter effectively “biasing” the platter. There is way to take this presses further – introducing an artificial “brake” on another side of platter (or at any side at this meter). That brake acts like a mechanical grounding rod – it forces the spherical axis to sit very firm in elliptical corner. It also makes the driving belt from motor to work harder. By adjusting the force of the brake (mass of the pulleys, their driving diameter or whatever) it is possible to fine-tine the rotation system. Micro had this done with passive horoscope then the suggested to drive of the main platter. I like the idea but I feel it is very bulky.

What I experimented and go very good result was “suck out roller”. It was a soft rubber roller that was running off my driven by belt platter where the tension on the roller’s bearing was enough to bias out my platter. I was able to measure the fact the platter “sees” the roller. The Idea worked very well; however, I have to admit the all of it had no effect to auditable result. Eventually I returned back to just a simple and no fancy mass load platter with a single motor and loose belt…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 78
Post ID: 7763
Reply to: 7757
Summing the issues ain't easy

There are several sources of relatively static and fairly variable noise and vibrations that a TT deals with, and likely there is no one way to deal with all of it at once.  A coupled fluid will likely let loose at some point where another form of anti-vibe must seamlessly take over, trap and then somehow disapate "noise".  In the case of the platter, there are broad band resonances from the environment and the TT's self noise, in addition to the mechanical interface of the stylus in the groove, and this is stuff we do not want amplified.  Some gets loose into the arm and some gets into the vinyl, and some of it shows up at the stylus - again - when it's no longer wanted, or it otherwise enters the amplification chain in an undesirable form.  Lots of interesting "proprietary" "solutions" out there, and in the case of expensive TTs they somehow tend to look like SOLUTIONS, as well.  Well, I suppose they better, after all.

The drive issue has been both way overblown and under-developed, practically speakingh, IMO, in that the theoretical forces we are talking about are miniscule in practical terms.  The "eliptical" bearing force loads are easy to incorporate in a captured bearing or bearings at both ends of a located shaft, and nothing I have seen or heard to date has convinced me of the practical worth of extra belt(s) and/or motors, in dealing with these issues, either.  My own experiments with belts show that the practical minimum is the best length, as they tend to develop vibrations and even cycles of vibrations if too long.  I just don't get, and I have never heard, how adding extra drive elements can help, in the end, when it is just more stuff to do something else, ie, it just becomes another variable (loose cannons).

Once the math starts, it just keeps going, and IMO it gets untenable, fast, and the super-engineers are left to "solve' only a few of the storm of "problems" that the "rigorous" approach generates as each factor introduces new factors.

In the end, of course, there has to be a balance between abstract science and practical application on the one hand and effective marketing on the other hand.  So far, it looks as though marketing is the biggest consideration in most cases; if not in the beginning, then certainly in the end.

Still waiting for the Ultimate TT...

Best regards,
Paul S

07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mumford
Posts 10
Joined on 06-10-2008

Post #: 79
Post ID: 7765
Reply to: 7756
Disagreed on voicing
 ducatirider wrote:

so voicing becomes as much an art as a science.





I don't mean to be a smart ass, but if "voicing" is required in a turntable, then it is not an "ultimate" turntable.  Maybe an "ultimate" turntable will never be built, as it is not possible using human technologies.  OK, the sci fi freaks can use some kind of transporter beam or something.  But let's not go there.

What about idler driver?  Maybe we should start with the very basic here.
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ducatirider
Posts 3
Joined on 07-07-2008

Post #: 80
Post ID: 7766
Reply to: 7765
Sanity check

perhaps "voicing" was a poor choice of words.  but i don't think there's any designer that would put a concept into production before testing it for sound quality.  and then tweaking until the desired effect has been met.  tw spent decades perfecting his material choice for the plinth.  even a raven ac today has a different motor controller than one from a year ago. i do agree that there is no "ultimate" anything in this world.

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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  455607  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  426107  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  386293  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  88164  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  26252  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  77571  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  26219  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  48372  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  107806  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  12968  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  10241  10-27-2010
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