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02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,740
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 24700
Reply to: 24699
Very nice, Anthony.
It is very nice, Anthony. From aesthetic prospective I would like to have it to be 2 sections less as I feel that the bass sections overcomes horns visually but it is never too many bass sections. You might want to start from 6 sections and then add 2 more if you need it. Be prepared that when the speakers will be done you will want to move it a good 3-5 feet further from the wall, it will greatly improve imaging. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 140
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 62
Post ID: 24701
Reply to: 24700
Bass alignment
I guess you have listened to it but when I don't align the separate bass cabinets they fight each other and I get terrible bass.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 63
Post ID: 24702
Reply to: 24701
Unknown
 Jorge wrote:
I guess you have listened to it but when I don't align the separate bass cabinets they fight each other and I get terrible bass.


You have mentioned this before Jorge and as a result it is one of the things that I am going to test before I assemble the second stack.  I could find no problems in the measurements when I had them stacked four high previously, but eight high may be something different.  I've not listened to them yet...just assembled them.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,740
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 64
Post ID: 24703
Reply to: 24701
It is just an extreme nearfield.
Jorge, the topology that Anthony use very permits an alignment of the individual bass sections. BTW, you as the person who invited this topology, or at least the first one who use it in my circle, should know about it.  The alignment does look very conspicuous on the picture but I think it is because Anthony has a very short room and his listening position is not too far. Based upon the curvature that I see I think he will be sitting 7 feet from the bass drivers. It is very much a nearfield but Macondo topology should handle it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 65
Post ID: 24704
Reply to: 24700
I feel the same way
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is very nice, Anthony. From aesthetic prospective I would like to have it to be 2 sections less as I feel that the bass sections overcomes horns visually but it is never too many bass sections. You might want to start from 6 sections and then add 2 more if you need it. Be prepared that when the speakers will be done you will want to move it a good 3-5 feet further from the wall, it will greatly improve imaging. 


When putting them together I got to 6 sections and thought they looked really good.  Even seven looked good but the eight put it into imposing territory, when compared to the horns.  Of course I may yet add either an Injection Channel or Midbass Channel on top of the horns which may change things aesthetically, but yes, dropping one or two cannons off the top is an option.

Unfortunately I do not have another 3-5 ft to bring them out from the wall.  The drivers are all at least 1.4m from the wall, or nearly 5', but the cannons are 3' long which makes it look like they are closer.  I do hope this is going to work.  One thing that I noticed when assembling the stacks while playing music is how even one these tall stacks affects the sound in the room.  It acts sort of like a corner bass trap (and diffusor) and how two of them act will be very interesting.  They may act sort of like walls in the middle of the room which may or may not be a problem or a benefit, but it will certainly be different to the effect of a normal subwoofer or two in terms of how sound reflects around the room.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 66
Post ID: 24705
Reply to: 24703
Good eyes
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Jorge, the topology that Anthony use very permits an alignment of the individual bass sections. BTW, you as the person who invited this topology, or at least the first one who use it in my circle, should know about it.  The alignment does look very conspicuous on the picture but I think it is because Anthony has a very short room and his listening position is not too far. Based upon the curvature that I see I think he will be sitting 7 feet from the bass drivers. It is very much a nearfield but Macondo topology should handle it.


Very good eyes Romy.  I am limited by how far apart I can get the left and right channels because of where the stairs come into the room.  As a result of earlier discussions with you I am pursuing a listening distance of 7.5' at this stage before I listen to anything and the Bass Cannons have been set on a corresponding curvature based on the height of my ears at the listening chair.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 140
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 67
Post ID: 24706
Reply to: 24705
Sorry
My bad experience was mainly for aesthetic purposes with just a couple of drivers, so clearly misaligned. sorry for repeating the comment.
The biggest tower of bass drivers I have used was 4 tubes, dynamics was good but the difference I found against just 2 tubes in the same room was not a lot. When moved to a bigger room the need for more bass tubes became noticeable, we settled for 3. Later we compared against one newer tube with a bigger driver and it seemed to be equivalent. Of course they are a different topology.

Pease let us know how they sound! They do look impressive.

PS: Where is you UBH?
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 68
Post ID: 24707
Reply to: 24706
Thanks Jorge
Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for repeating the comment.  The reason I post this stuff is to hopefully use the experience of others such as yourself that have more knowledge than I .  

The UBH is still on the lathe.  I need to get them finished and plan to get back to them in about a month.
02-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,740
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 69
Post ID: 24708
Reply to: 24706
Disagree of course...
 Jorge wrote:
The biggest tower of bass drivers I have used was 4 tubes, dynamics was good but the difference I found against just 2 tubes in the same room was not a lot.
I very much disagree with this assessment. The more bass drivers you have the better bass you get and the relation is virtually linear. 6 drivers are better than 4 and 64 drivers even better. The point is that the more driver you have the less exertion of individual drivers, thus less mechanic distortions. It is not to mention that with grow of drivers number the sensitivity of the entire bass section grow and starting from some point a low power DSET might be used, which is by nature has superior LF. Also, with a large number of drivers it is possible to use the array in split-bass configuration that can dial the room very accurately in care a room has a problem. The only limitation as I see it to breed too many bass section is space and aesthetic… I do feel purely from aesthetic perspective that Anthony need to use 6 drivers per side but my viewpoints on aesthetic should be meaningful only for myself…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 70
Post ID: 24766
Reply to: 24708
Second stack is up
Well, the second Bass Cannon stack is up and in place.
Two up.jpg

I have to say that the room feels better with the second stack up.  There is now a symmetry and balance and I feel as though even at 8 each side they do not overly detract from the horn stacks.  I now have less of an inclination to remove one or two cannons to make them less imposing.

From Desk.jpg


I like this shot a lot...

Aint She Prettyjpg.jpg


Power-on testing for the amplifiers has been slow going but I am making forward progress.  I can't wait to finish an upperbass horn and get it upstairs to my room.  Plans for room acoustic treatment are also progressing.


03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,740
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 71
Post ID: 24767
Reply to: 24766
Yep, very nice.
Yep, indeed, it looks very nice. The 8 sections of bass line array look visually slightly overweening but I think when you put the upper bass horns in place it will visually balance the things out. I feel some sort of envy to the way how you plan your project. I did not have this luxury as it was a long evolutionary prosses. It is much better to think about system architecture when the strategically a system is laid out. You did a very good job to conceptualize the Macondo layout into you own version. I initially did not see your cylindrical line array or your curved back frame as prospective direction. I need to admit the now I do see a merit of it. 
 
A major revision of what you do will take place when you connect you bass line-array and will RTA your room from listening position. There is absolutely no way to predict how room will response under 150Hz to your playback. With the configuration you have you will have a LOT of options to deal with whatever response you will get. Do not commit the stupidity many audio people do and do not correct sub 150Hz with acoustic treatments. It never works properly and create more problems then solutions.  The key should be not to fight your room but use your room, converting the room problems into room advantages. The configuration you have is uniquely suited for it. If you hit problems with your RTA interpretation and would be confuse what steps to take with your playback to address it then contact me and I will pitch some directions.  
 
There is a direction that you might consider, I am taking about lower bass channel. I know that you have your wet dream fantasy about large midbass horn but there is topological restriction for you: time alignment. I do not know how to address this problem. The itch for midbass channel is not juts chowing over the “never stop paranoia”. The type of the drivers you use at LF are very good in my view at bottom but above let say 60-70Hz your can do better. You bass drivers have unique non-inertia rubber suspension which doe not feel like rubber and sonically very far from typical rubber used but it still not as loos as vintage paper suspension or leather suspension. Playing some lower MF or midbass instruments, you might feel that the micro-tensions and transients in midbass will be slightly mad out with your bass drivers. Honestly, it will not be felt as “deficiency” as those ScanSpeaks are very nicely balanced. What I did at my time was experimenting with loading. For instance, if I drive your bass driver from 6C33C then the best sound at 40Hz I got when I was loading my amp with let say 400R. However, the best sound at 120Hz I was getting from the same drivers if I load the amps with 1200R. At 1200R ScanSpeaks “ring” like a good vintage driver, well sort of… The irony is that in your configuration it is even possible to do it driving different section of the drivers in array from different taps of your OPT or even from different channels or Milq. It because a bit complex and you need to deal with power matching and a few other factors. I do think that much easy way to introduce little ridicules dedicated midbass channel with nice “loose” vintage driver, similar to what I did in my current room. The “ridicules” part come from that fact that it is not proper speaker. Above 125-150Hz you will have your upper-bass horn take over and at sub 70Hz you have your line-array cover nicely. So, it needs to be a very small little direct radiator box with 100dB efficiency. All that you need this driver to do is juts to inject some textural ringing around 100Hz. The wonderful irony is that 70Hz-100Hz is the exact location where most likely your room modes will be showing. So, you can combine your “injected textural ringing” with amplitude correction – very slick and effective way to deal with problems.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,262
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 72
Post ID: 24768
Reply to: 24766
Keeping Options Open
Anthony, this is a very smart installation, IMO, because you have not "over-committed" to areas where you have work left to do, and areas you have committed to are flexible enough to allow adjustments you will likely need to do.   Also, you have made provisions to "dial out slop" and hold settings, apropos.

Bravo!

If you said yet what the small speakers sitting on stands are, I missed it.


Best regards,
Paul S
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 73
Post ID: 24769
Reply to: 24768
Two way
 Paul S wrote:
Anthony, this is a very smart installation, IMO, because you have not "over-committed" to areas where you have work left to do, and areas you have committed to are flexible enough to allow adjustments you will likely need to do.   Also, you have made provisions to "dial out slop" and hold settings, apropos.

Bravo!

If you said yet what the small speakers sitting on stands are, I missed it.


Best regards,
Paul S


Thanks Paul.  Those little speakers are Lenehan ML1 two way standmounts.  They are very good speakers if you can accept the limitations of the topology thanks largely to the effort the builder puts into reducing energy storage in the cabinets.  They have excellent off-axis power response and a lot of effort put into the crossovers.  A good solution for someone that needs small speakers.  
03-25-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 74
Post ID: 24770
Reply to: 24767
Room treatment
Thanks for the kind words Romy.  I am enjoying taking my time with this project and getting things just right.  It sure helps when there is little development involved, just duplication more or less.  Development may come later as I impose my expectations upon the playback, but we will see.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

 
A major revision of what you do will take place when you connect you bass line-array and will RTA your room from listening position. There is absolutely no way to predict how room will response under 150Hz to your playback. With the configuration you have you will have a LOT of options to deal with whatever response you will get. Do not commit the stupidity many audio people do and do not correct sub 150Hz with acoustic treatments. It never works properly and create more problems then solutions.  The key should be not to fight your room but use your room, converting the room problems into room advantages. The configuration you have is uniquely suited for it. If you hit problems with your RTA interpretation and would be confuse what steps to take with your playback to address it then contact me and I will pitch some directions.  
 
 

I see room treatment as one of the first things to get in order, but I am not thinking so much from the perspective of amplitude correction, rather trying to get a more even room decay.  At present in my room, the further I get below 100Hz the longer the sound takes to decay.  I personally find it a bit disconcerting but perhaps a lot of people would not even notice it ( I seem to hear low frequencies better than some).  So my first step will be to make some pressure traps to go behind the speakers and in the corners and try to get them to reduce the room ringing/decay in the 30Hz to 500Hz region.  Now that the Bass Cannons are up, I can hook them up to my existing amplifier and make some measurements to try to figure out just what I want to achieve.  Just having the Cannons in the room has changed the bass sound that I get from the little standmounts that I currently use.


 Romy the Cat wrote:


There is a direction that you might consider, I am taking about lower bass channel. I know that you have your wet dream fantasy about large midbass horn but there is topological restriction for you: time alignment. I do not know how to address this problem. The itch for midbass channel is not juts chowing over the “never stop paranoia”. The type of the drivers you use at LF are very good in my view at bottom but above let say 60-70Hz your can do better. You bass drivers have unique non-inertia rubber suspension which doe not feel like rubber and sonically very far from typical rubber used but it still not as loos as vintage paper suspension or leather suspension. Playing some lower MF or midbass instruments, you might feel that the micro-tensions and transients in midbass will be slightly mad out with your bass drivers. Honestly, it will not be felt as “deficiency” as those ScanSpeaks are very nicely balanced. What I did at my time was experimenting with loading. For instance, if I drive your bass driver from 6C33C then the best sound at 40Hz I got when I was loading my amp with let say 400R. However, the best sound at 120Hz I was getting from the same drivers if I load the amps with 1200R. At 1200R ScanSpeaks “ring” like a good vintage driver, well sort of… The irony is that in your configuration it is even possible to do it driving different section of the drivers in array from different taps of your OPT or even from different channels or Milq. It because a bit complex and you need to deal with power matching and a few other factors. I do think that much easy way to introduce little ridicules dedicated midbass channel with nice “loose” vintage driver, similar to what I did in my current room. The “ridicules” part come from that fact that it is not proper speaker. Above 125-150Hz you will have your upper-bass horn take over and at sub 70Hz you have your line-array cover nicely. So, it needs to be a very small little direct radiator box with 100dB efficiency. All that you need this driver to do is juts to inject some textural ringing around 100Hz. The wonderful irony is that 70Hz-100Hz is the exact location where most likely your room modes will be showing. So, you can combine your “injected textural ringing” with amplitude correction – very slick and effective way to deal with problems. 
 


Regarding frequency response, I do have that 6th channel in the DSET that could be dedicated to an additional bass channel and I do have a pair of Vitavox 15" woofers that I found for the purpose.  All of those options you mentioned are still on the table.

The room has an axial mode at just below 30Hz which can be nulled with correct placement of the listening chair exactly midway between those walls.  Above that are other modes that are not so easy to mitigate but they do tend to cluster from 60/70Hz upwards.  I can build broadband room treatment that will effectively reduce ringing and control the decay of those frequencies, but I doubt that it will do too much for the frequency response which I am quite sure will have to be treated as you suggest.
02-19-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 75
Post ID: 26073
Reply to: 24770
Vitavox midbass
Romy,

I am considering a midbass channel similar to that you are currently using.  The plan is to use the channel as a form of EQ to help rectify a large circa 40Hz room mode...bass cannons below the mode, midbass above the mode, and upperbass horn above that...hopefully better bass as a result, and less floor shaking.

On hand are four Vitavox 15" drivers.  I've run impedance sweeps and measured the T/S parameters of them all and it seems as though I have two nicely matched AK150's and two well out of spec K15/40's all with the Alnico motors and 15ohm voice coils.  As you know, all the Vitavox 15"ers are identical apart from the cones and it is possible to change them to any of K15/40, AK150, AK151 and AK152 with just a cone swap.  The K15/40 and AK150 use the exact same cone except for an additional final process on the surround of the AK150 to make it more compliant and reduce Fs by 10Hz to 35Hz.

Given our very similar systems and re-reading your adventures with the new room and the mid-bass channel, I thought I would ask for your thoughts.  I am about to order some replacement cones and given the lower Fs and my specific requirements with the 40Hz mode am considering changing over to all AK150 (instead of all K15/40) and perhaps eventually finding a third pair in case they are needed to compliment the extra sensitivity of the 8 driver a side Bass Cannons.  

Anthony 
02-21-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,740
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 76
Post ID: 26074
Reply to: 26073
Good luck.
Anthony,

Yes, this is the exact configuration that I have. As you drive your LF channels down, probably it will be 30-35Hz with >2 order filter you will like the sound from them even more. I hope you have a good amp to drive is as Milq will not have enough gain and power. Grabbing any brutal SS amp will not work in my estimation as they produce too dry and too fast bass. This is a very separate and frankly a complex subject how to drive the lower bass to compliment your DSET.

The Vitavox 15" drivers. It should be time-aligned and should not be “good”. Do not invest a lot on into the enclosure and it is most likely you would need one driver per channel not 2. The Vitavox 15" drivers are in my estimation are stanning as direct radiators, the best bass I even heard in my life came from them. To use them in context of your installation is relatively complex as your midbass will be working in relatively narrow bandwidth and will literally fill some gaps. It is not practical to talk about this type of midbass in terms of frequency and it will be rather an “cloud” of sound that will be to great degree contingent upon your specific sonic signature of R and L channels in your specific listening room. Do not waste a lot of money for enclosure sand do not be afraid to go asymmetrical with you narrow band midbass: this is advantage not a drawback.  Yes, DO NOT get seduced to subtract sound running it in back phase to your room problematic zones. The neighboring channels MUST sumazes not subtract, even if subtract fives to you flatter response. Get from eBay for $50 a pair of sealed car’s cubes, I think they are 20X20, put in there some foam and it is all you need. You can start with one channel and you two driver per side It will take for you a week to fine what you need of you have a stock of coils and caps home. They it will take for you another 2 weeks or so to find peace with the volume of the that midbass. That midbass will be very beautiful and you will be impressed initially but with time goes by you will realize that you do not wans to be impressed by the bass and you will find a way to subdue that impressed and to let it to shoe own only when it needed. It will take bot you a few years to fine a good power amp to drive your lower bass section. Let me know what you will end up with as I do not have prices with what I have.

Yes, one more thing, if you wiling to drive your new midbass from Milq’s lower Chenal then do not forget the proper loading. You bass tower probably are low on R and your Vitavox is 15R. You might need a another OPT or remap your sections of you can. Generally, the more you ideal the amp against this driver the best I find the result it, like use 2 or 4R output taps. You will be losing power with that starvation loading but you most like will like the sound.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-21-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 276
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 77
Post ID: 26075
Reply to: 26074
Good to hear
Thanks Romy,

I was hoping to hear that you remain happy with your midbass solution and was surprised at the time about the small cabinets that you used for the Vitavox 15"ers, but having measured T/S parameters of the drivers here I can see that indeed they do not need much of a box at all...the cube you suggest is pretty much ideal. 

At the moment I use the DSET lower channel to drive my lower bass and I have plenty of volume sub 20Hz thanks to a well sealed room and resulting high room gain.  This should not change and I expect to continue running the Bass Cannons from Melqs lowest channel.  The midbass channel will give me a little flexibility to play with how low the upperbass horns are cutoff because I feel that the Bass Cannons are a just a little stretched once they get close to 100Hz.  When I first built them I indeed fell in love with the sound...never has bass been so soft and full and effortlessly articulated in my playback and I was lost in throngs of that passion for a long time and just could not hear your words about the sound as they approached the UB horn.  Well, with many listening hours and a familiarity with my sound two things have been identified for improvement and that slight change of 'clarity' circa 100Hz is one of them along with the 40Hz room problem.  A third may prove to be more flexible integration of the UB horns by passing them a little higher.   

Midbass can be run from the DSET Injection Channel as I have yet to experiment with that speaker.  It will be Melquiades from 10Hz to 40kHz.

At this stage the 15" can be boxed individually and hung from the side of the Bass Cannons, most likely on the outside, or even placed on top of the horn stack where your Tannoy Reds are situated.  I think the former will be the better solution given the closer proximity to the UB horn and the direct sound not being blocked by the Fundamentals Horn.  Hanging from the Bass Cannons also gives the flexibility to raise/lower the Vitavox drivers in increments of 30cm (12") just by changing the Cannon from which they hang, and because the Bass Cannons sit on pneumatic isolators and do not shake the floor directly (only with sound pressure it seems) the room sound proofing will remain intact.  

I will give this a go.      

Anthony
04-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 23
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 78
Post ID: 26090
Reply to: 26074
Vitavox Corner Horn
Romy,When you say that the Vitavox 15" was the best midbass you heard, was it in a Vitavox corner horn? I'm think about acquiring or building a pair of Vitavox corner horns as I have a perfect room for them. 
04-05-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 364
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 79
Post ID: 26091
Reply to: 26090
Phase alignment of a corner horn?
Hi Jeff,I am certain that the best midbass was NEVER in a corner horn. Every fold in the horn is a new resonance. Corner horns need many folds...
In addition, if you are very "anal retentive" about phase alignment - how do you integrate a corner horn? Any upper bass, midrange, HF would need equivalent delay for at least 1-2 meters as the signal from the woofer has to travel that distance before it even leaves the corner.
There are many schemes to get "more bass" out of a driver. Most of them have nothing to do with better sound.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
04-05-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 23
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 80
Post ID: 26092
Reply to: 26091
Corner Horn Bass
I have to disagree with you here. Until you've heard the bass from a JBL Hartsfield, you haven't heard bass. Best bass I've heard period. 
I'm curious if the Vitavox is of the same caliber. 
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  »  New  Macondo Frame modification...  Parquet...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     46  388181  12-22-2006
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  479893  07-29-2007
  »  New  Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..  The "old" servo......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     73  227228  06-20-2015
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  604452  08-12-2015
  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  157310  05-20-2011
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1330320  08-03-2007
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