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  »  New  Ultimate HF output transformer?..  Leads to further air core heads...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     7  72152  07-14-2005
  »  New  Super Melquiades Amplifier...  About the Super Melquiades Bass....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     29  187754  07-16-2005
  »  New  Fun with transformers?..  Re: An amplifier is not a subject but a service.....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     7  66026  10-21-2005
  »  New  Headphone amplifiers. Baby Melquiades?..  The survival guide...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     27  208595  11-25-2005
  »  New  An amplifier for Tweeters..  The 7721/D3A as the tweeter diver....  Audio Discussions  Forum     17  134766  09-03-2006
  »  New  To Milq builders: corrections, simplification, modifica..  Talking about amp…....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     16  75406  05-17-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  110459  07-12-2007
  »  New  The 6E5P tube data...  Bartola Valves: 6e5p beam tetrode SPICE model...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     44  326215  07-23-2007
  »  New  6 Channel Version of Super Melquiades..  The first Milq screw up....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     131  879226  08-08-2007
  »  New  My (Amplification + Acoustic System): what is next?..  Macondo and Melquiades in the NEW room....  Audio Discussions  Forum     41  206335  01-10-2008
  »  New  Single-stage Melquiades vs. DHT amps..  A hallucination?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     397  2590061  11-22-2008
09-30-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,543
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 5471
Reply to: 4542
The dead cold HF single-stage Milq
Since I went single-stage Milq with output transformer on the Water Drop’s side I am witnessing an interesting phenomenon. When the amp is cold and juts tuned on then during the first 3-5 minutes (in addtion to the 2.5 minutes of start up procedures) my tweeter radiate ugly HF noise. It is sort of microphonic noise, with that glass echoes and this noise COMPLETELY GOES AWAY after the tube warms up. The effect is not depending from the tube section (I have tried a dozens of 6E6P). It does not bother me but I find it interesting as the right channel amplifiers (the one that does not use single-stage amp and has 2 transformers between the 6C33C and Ribbon) does not have this effect.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-04-2008 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,543
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 6859
Reply to: 4241
5E6P vs. 7721/D3a as an amp for tweeters

The 5E6P is the same as my 5E5P only with more or less military ambitions and with congenital “western” pins layout. It has more fragile specifications and more tight tolerance then 5E6P but it is the very same tube. There is very very very minor sonic difference between then and it is why I used 5E6P for my MF and tweeter channel. Still, the 5E6P and 5E5P has the same character in sound and might be consider as the same tube.

However, the 5E6P has the identical pins lowing with another my favorite tube – the 7721 or D3a in European specification:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/pdf/7721_D3a.pdf

The 7721 is from the same family as my beloved 7788 and they were made in the truly golden age of tube manufacturing. It is a bit more powerful then 7788 and it is much better driver then 7788. The 7788 is a king for microphones and MC cartridges, the 7721 is a next output state…

Now is the fan…. The 7721 and 5E6P have the same pins and pretty much interchangeable.  The 7721 won’t handle as much power as 5E6P but my interest to use it on tweeters what I need no power.  I drive the 5E6P at 200V and a good 5E6P pushes 1800mS under 30mA and with minus 4V on bias. The 7721 (as a triode) give the same transconductance at the same voltage and 12mA on plate.

What I need to learn how would 7721 sound driving my tweeter.  I also need twice lower plate impudence for my tweeter driver (do not ask why - it is classified). The 7721 does has lower impedance but a higher current. I wonder what would be the 7721’s plate impedance at 12mA.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 63
Post ID: 6860
Reply to: 6859
7721 at 12mA
I wonder what would be the 7721’s plate impedance at 12mA


According to the chart on the last page of data sheet, I'd say roughly 2.4k (as a triode).  You can always add resistance in parallel with the load.

jh
02-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,543
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 64
Post ID: 9641
Reply to: 4319
The tide turn your way, it looks like
fiogf49gjkf0d

op.9, cv and the rest folks at the previous page.

After a long debate and consulting with multiple parties it looks like I am incline to go for nickel-iron alloy (Mu-metal) transformer in my substitution of single-stage MF amps with DHT. The objective it to drop the core “speed” and decrease plate loading. Let wee it is was a right direction to go.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 9663
Reply to: 9641
Ni alloy ahoy
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ah, splendid!

What's the exact spec of the opts?

I will gladly relieve you of them if you're not impressed!

On the other hand, if you are, then you will have the dilemma of how to get mumetal opts on the other channels... but having almost zero time these days for non-vicarious audio adventures, I look forward to hearing the first installment.

cheers
cv
02-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,543
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 9664
Reply to: 9663
Many promis no one excels.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Be careful to relieve me if I am not impressed, many promised no one excelled. :-)

Chris, I do not think that you will see me to think about transformers for other channels. I do not think that what I do will be some kind of resolution for Amorphous vs. Nickel transformers: in my care it will be a different amp with different out tube and differently loaded. The subject of faster core vs. more idle plate is very interesting but I am not the one to address it. I do want to do for a SLIGHTLY slower core, but not too much slower, then increase damping and power, will see where it will lead. I have a hunch the it might be a good direction for a limited bandwidth

About the transformer. I was thinking about it a lot. It will be 70% Nickel with limited inductance to support 200 cycles  at 50mA. 20:1. It will load the ~1250R plate of YO186 to ~6K. I have no idea if it will be good and if the YO186 even the tube that will give any interesting sound. Here is what I was thinking:

In my priory list are the “small” 4V DTH tubes like RE604, AD1, PX4 and those ghost-like YO186 since they were damped to my head and might be a “cheap” replacement of the imposable to get good RE604, AD1, PX4. If my project with small DHT will go south then I will go for full-size DTH but the high-impedance, like 10Y. Many experiences people advised me that I will not see in those high-impedance tubes the “tacky” and “overly romantic” qualities that I do not like in some DHT. I kind of would like to have “clean” and “neutral” sound, the one similar in “cleanness” to 6C33C, sine it will be DSET I do not see any problem with high OPT ratio. If the 10Y will not go as well then I will jump into the common 2A3/300B/45 wagon. If all falls then I will return to my ½ 6C33C… that it absolutely securest assurance of the result that I accept.

So, how to put one ass to all DHT transformers? I find a solution. In fact I did not find it, it just came itself. I spoke with Dave Slagle, inquiring what he can do and he told that his design implies the field interchangeable coils and adjustable gaps. That is a very cool solution for me. He also assured me that the assembling and disassembling of his transformer is Morons-complained, which is perfect for me. So, he will wind a base transformer and I might just get from him more windings if I need them.

Regarding you to hear the installment? Be my quest. From what you heard before my playback nowdays is 342 light miles ahead and I am very comfortable to play it "as is" without any MF modifications and with the Amorphous  magnetiks. I afraid that MF modifications will do some downtime foe a month or so, unless my unicorn YO186 hit the mark from a first try…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 67
Post ID: 9667
Reply to: 9664
70% nickel?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello
Do you mean 78% nickel? As it's Dave's iron, I'll even *pay* to take it off your hands :-)

Re 10Y: Well, it's one of the most linear tubes ever; and this has been backed up in some brief listening experiences to some of its variants. A friend actually measured some for driver duty many years ago, IIRC pushing 80V peak into a 30k load, ie 0.1W, distortion was about 0.01%, which if I'm correct, would be at 99db into an S2.

I think the most accurate description of these things was written by JC Morrison in SP - see if you can find his article about the 50 amp... he drew a relation between lower impedances (romantic) and higher impedances (cleaner). I'm not sure I believe the overall hypothesis, I think it is more a function of the particular high/low impedance tubes he was writing about (300B, 10, 45 etc). But how this translates to neutrality above "levels 1 or 2" is another matter entirely...I think the 6C33 is a complete outlier in this respect.

I'd love to listen to the latest installment of Macondo/Melq/the rest - must be about 200 iterations on now?! Alas I'm back in London now and a full time student, but if I do manage to graduate and arrange employment there may well be a celebratory US roadtrip in between...

Cheers
cv
02-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,543
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 68
Post ID: 9671
Reply to: 9667
Can you elaborate on it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 cv wrote:
…. I'm not sure I believe the overall hypothesis, I think it is more a function of the particular high/low impedance tubes he was writing about (300B, 10, 45 etc). But how this translates to neutrality above "levels 1 or 2" is another matter entirely...I think the 6C33 is a complete outlier in this respect.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 69
Post ID: 9720
Reply to: 9671
6c33 outlier
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, well - I wasn't really saying much; just a vague hypothesis. There is some tendency for lower Rp tubes, (and somewhat related) tubes with a certain harmonic structure, to sound more romantic, and hence impart that quality to music regardless of the content, the 6C33 has the lowest Rp out there, and is not the most linear, and yet you've found that somehow it manages to keep out of the way of the musical expression, or even enhance it in some ways?

It seems to polarise tube fans - many won't touch it, saying it sounds solid-state... ie they are missing the romanticism (despite it being not that linear....)

Something like a 10Y is rather clear/lean sounding *and* measures it too... so - along the lines of some of your comments  - what exactly is the 6C33 doing?

I don't have that much experience with either tube, so these are just some wishy-washy thoughts... sorry I don't have more time to elaborate more clearly!
02-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,543
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 70
Post ID: 9721
Reply to: 9720
I have another definition of neutrality then many others.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 cv wrote:
Yes, well - I wasn't really saying much; just a vague hypothesis. There is some tendency for lower Rp tubes, (and somewhat related) tubes with a certain harmonic structure, to sound more romantic, and hence impart that quality to music regardless of the content, the 6C33 has the lowest Rp out there, and is not the most linear, and yet you've found that somehow it manages to keep out of the way of the musical expression, or even enhance it in some ways?

It seems to polarise tube fans - many won't touch it, saying it sounds solid-state... ie they are missing the romanticism (despite it being not that linear....)

Something like a 10Y is rather clear/lean sounding *and* measures it too... so - along the lines of some of your comments  - what exactly is the 6C33 doing?

I don't have that much experience with either tube, so these are just some wishy-washy thoughts... sorry I don't have more time to elaborate more clearly!

I have heard criticism of some people that 6C33 sound like solid-state and missing some romanticism. I disagree, not to mention that I practically never heard any good sounding amp around 6C33 – not because the tube but because the people who cooked the tube. The 6C33, with all appeared simplicity, is a difficult tube to get good sound out of it. In fact among all 6C33 amps that I ever heard in my view only ML2.0 was able to get right sound out of 6C33: the ML2.0 had no even references to SS or to tube sound. The SS vs. tube is for AA or DIYAudio.com - level of audio, the ML2.0 was beyond it…

Anyhow, I am not a huge fan of romanticism-addiction that some many DHT fans look like have. Romanticism is great but if music is not call upon romanticism then what would you do? I understand that those people who complain that 6C33C has “missing romanticism” understand neutrality in a different and very primitively way, so who care what they think. A two-year old child might have an Opinion why Moon is moving 2” further from Earch each year. Does anybody care what this child thinks?

I do not know what 10Y does – I never used it but from comments of people who have the similar to me detaste for the tubey “artificial melancholy” and pulled out-of-ass phony romanticism I concluded that 10Y MIGHT be different then the other DHT’s casual suspects. I do not know how accurate it is.

Anyhow, I kind of stuck with 6C33C and her definition of neutrality - I am quite comfortable with it. I begin to question my move toward to a single stage, but this is whole other subject. BTW, I do not know if you have seen it but David have made a transformer for my YO186:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=9689

I know you were interested.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,156
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 71
Post ID: 9728
Reply to: 9721
Charting Value
fiogf49gjkf0d
Something that has long puzzled me is that circuit designers seem ever determined to wring the last ounce of gain from every tube in a given circuit, or they will "starve" them, and the circuit in turn is designed as if it were simply a mathematical and/or intellectual excercise.  Of course, there is probably room for more careful mathematics than are applied in given instances, but at the same time, the circuit does have a purpose, after all, and that winds up being the sole criterion for evaluating its worth, IMO, including the power tube, as it is implemented.

Of the handful of 6C33C amps I have heard, every single one was more or less "stretched", IMO, at least in terms of the sound I heard.  And now that I have had a while with the ML2s, I will say that these amps also benefitted from backing off on the throttle, compared to the "House Setting".  Whether this is a simple case of "optimising" a given power tube in use is moot in this case, because what we are after is exactly the optimum implementation.

 Funny that the ML2 is not "neutral" with respect to effects.  At the same time, one would be hard pressed to apply adjectives relating to its "character".  That it uses 6C33Cs is all the "proof" that tube needs, IMO.

Clearly, the 6C33C is no panacea.  From my experience, no tube is, and it is hard to find an example of a more "neutral" output tube that will do anywhere near the range or useable power of the 6C33C, used correctly.

Yes, the 45, 10Y and 50 have remarkable sonic attributes, including laconic clarity in the "right" use.  But, as everyone knows, the penalty for these tubes is very limited range and power, especially compared to the plebeian 6C33C.

Paul S
03-30-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
shannon
Posts 22
Joined on 08-08-2014

Post #: 72
Post ID: 22585
Reply to: 4972
Single stage 6e5p and no bass problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
people think you can use 6e5p single stage full range. like for example

http://diyparadise.com/w/purist-wet-dream-gets-wetter/

stiff sound aside what about the bass
Do they just use lowther or something. 
Or do you think it could be possible to get a ridiculous output transformer that could make 6e5p fullrange
03-31-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,543
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 22587
Reply to: 22585
I scare of it....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, any tube might be full range, the question about implementation, power and objectives. I do not know what specifically this fellow does and what he wants to drive with it. My experiments with single-stage 6e5p were not so promising. He has diffident way to bias it and many other things. I did not try it and I would not try to predict the result. I generally slightly afraid of single-stage amp…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-02-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,156
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 74
Post ID: 22590
Reply to: 22587
Tubes vs. Speakers vs. FR
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am still waiting for a (single stage) tube that can make full range Music via speakers. I mean, this is the real issue, isn't it? Sure a good tube will pass a "full range signal" through the right transformer; but where is the tube that will do this through the stack of speakers (drivers) necessary for FR? I think this approach is limited to Selected Cuts, like finger exercises vs. Brahms PC 2.


Paul S
Page 4 of 4 (74 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ultimate HF output transformer?..  Leads to further air core heads...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     7  72152  07-14-2005
  »  New  Super Melquiades Amplifier...  About the Super Melquiades Bass....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     29  187754  07-16-2005
  »  New  Fun with transformers?..  Re: An amplifier is not a subject but a service.....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     7  66026  10-21-2005
  »  New  Headphone amplifiers. Baby Melquiades?..  The survival guide...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     27  208595  11-25-2005
  »  New  An amplifier for Tweeters..  The 7721/D3A as the tweeter diver....  Audio Discussions  Forum     17  134766  09-03-2006
  »  New  To Milq builders: corrections, simplification, modifica..  Talking about amp…....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     16  75406  05-17-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  110459  07-12-2007
  »  New  The 6E5P tube data...  Bartola Valves: 6e5p beam tetrode SPICE model...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     44  326215  07-23-2007
  »  New  6 Channel Version of Super Melquiades..  The first Milq screw up....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     131  879226  08-08-2007
  »  New  My (Amplification + Acoustic System): what is next?..  Macondo and Melquiades in the NEW room....  Audio Discussions  Forum     41  206335  01-10-2008
  »  New  Single-stage Melquiades vs. DHT amps..  A hallucination?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     397  2590061  11-22-2008
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