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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  455605  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  426107  01-30-2006
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  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  26252  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  77571  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  26219  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  48372  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  107806  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  12968  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  10241  10-27-2010
03-02-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 6830
Reply to: 6828
DD progress
Certainly it took Technics a while to sort out the motor control systems in their serious DD machines. The earlier SP10 Mk1 is not a good example. On the Mk2 they seem to have got it right. Even with that there are other issues like the mat & plinth used with it that will affect the end result. There does seem to be a relationship between the weight of platter controlled and the mechanism employed to control it. You'd change that relationship at your peril. The SP10Mk3 was their ultimate statement, a heavier platter and a far more powerful motor although I've yet to hear what difference the system brings alongside a Mk2.

Paul, I find your observations regarding the speed constancy of a belt driven suspended 'heavy' design very much at odds with my own experience. They seldom remove the impression that something cyclical is happenening or instill a feeling of real security & sure footedness. Not that speed constancy is the be all and end all. A CD player will always have that but may fail to satisfy in many other areas.

I'm keen to hear the latest modern take on DD made by GP Audio (Monaco).  Michael Fremer was sniffy about it so it could be interesting!
03-02-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 42
Post ID: 6831
Reply to: 6829
Not so much a contest, as I see/hear it
Coops, do you have any personal observations or ideas about the ultimate TT, or are you already invested and just checking my credentials?  I would like to know your thoughts, too, based on your own personal listening habits, preferences and evaluations.

FWIW, I was using a modified Rek-O-Kut "transcription" TT when I bought a new Technics 1200, and before I even got that set up I got a chance to get a used 1-box SP10  at a great price.  I fancied it would be a step up in terms of sonics, based on Gordon Holt's opinions at the time, so I over extended myself to get it.  I wound up thinking that both DDs had similar issues that emerged with all sorts of music, and both had what I could only perceive as "speed issues" that annoyed me with all music apart from bog-standard rock and roll played during gatherings.  I know about the great specs, and that's why I bought the DDs, but I just could not shake the sense of something "jittery" turning the platters, which is perhaps similar to but at the same time different from the little ARs, Regas, etc.  And ironically, the old Rek-O-Kut seemed better in this regard.  I finally unloaded the 10 and kept the 1200, which I continued to play with for several years.  In the meantime I took every chance to try everything else, including a fancy Denon DD and, as I recall, a Kenwood DD, anything also touted by JGH at the time.  I have incidentally and forgettably heard other Japanese DDs along the way.  Because this happened years ago I am putting my previous experience into perspective/context of my present day experience and understanding, again FWIW.  The Sota Star vacuum was the first real breakthrough for me on the TT front, its own problems notwithstanding, and I have not progressed passed optimizing that TT so far, although I can presently imagine better TT performance and I am getting some workable ideas about implementing them.  And those ideas do not include DD.

So, what are you using, Coops, and why? 

Best regards,
Paul S
03-02-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 6832
Reply to: 6830
Feedback Loops
I believe a lot of the issues with earlier DD tables was that they were all servo controlled.  That is, a feedback loop kept the average velocity constant.  As a musical passage of complexity would slow the platter, the loop would respond with more motor torque and speed it back up.  Hence, the platter speed was always chasing its tail.  So you didn't have a passive reaction to stylus drag, but a reactive one, adding a new pitch signature.  Speed up, slow down, etc.  Always chasing.  And it depended a lot on the natural frequency response of the feedback loop.  Heavier platters required a slower loop.

DD itself might be ok, if not servo'ed.  I am curious as to what the changes were that made the later Technics sonically improved.

jh
03-02-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 44
Post ID: 6833
Reply to: 6830
The newer/better DD
Guy, that is a VERY interesting observation about your sense that belt drive speed is "cyclical".  I agree that belt/heavy problems are more "long term" versus DD "short term".  So in this sense I suppose it's pick your poison.  I wonder if the big Versa Dynamics I heard would have eventually showed the same belt/heavy problems, if it had stayed operational longer. 

But speed is not the end-all for me, and the belt/heavy allows me get the disc coupled down to a heavy platter for remarkable benefits that I have never heard from DD.  And, again, I am much more at ease as a listener with belt/heavy "long term" shortcomings, which, as I have noted, come across to me as greater stability and coherence versus DD "jittery", which has for me a rather digital vagueness with respect to time.

BTW, I did add damping to the platters on my Technics DDs, and even though I got reduced sonic breakthough it just made the speed problems worse, so I certainly agree with your remarks about platter changes.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-02-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 6835
Reply to: 6833
I share your prejudges.

I am with you with you anti-servo prejudgeses. The moment from motor, regardless if it is strong or now weak, should be constant. At the very moment when the moment changes it’s value the platter performs a microscopic “move” in it’s bearing. So the forcing moment and the force of slipping in belt or on a roll should be very constant – juts stabilize the voltage and let it to spin as is.

BTW, I very much like how Micro did it this big TT. They have a moron run for a first few seconds in servo mode, just enough to push the platter from stationary position then the servo was shut and the motor/platter tandem are spinning linearly.

Somebody have asked in this thread - where is the necessary limit of stability and compare the low numbers of platter stability with low number of distortions. I do not think that it is a correct comprising. Anyhow, I feel that the stability of platter should be low-enough in order a listener juts not to hear tone variation. It should not be better…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
enjoy_the_music
Strasbourg, France
Posts 12
Joined on 02-21-2007

Post #: 46
Post ID: 6901
Reply to: 6835
Versa Dynamics 2.3
Hi Romy

I was recently offered two of these turntables...apparently in full working order with all the 'expensive' upgrades.

PaulS tells me they are a real pain!

Do you have experiences with them?

Thanks

Richard
03-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 6929
Reply to: 6901
Stirring the water (keeping it murky)

Not one to fix too firmly on a given implementation, I rdecided to futz around with my vacuum holddown this weekend.

The power was not very good, but I was none the less able to determine conclusively that [within the context of my rig] although the sound certainly benefits from the vacuum (as opposed to no vacuum), there is such a thing as too much vacuum suction, which, past a critical point, begins to vacuum away ambience, where it would otherwise be part of the program, and likewise bass harmonics suffer when I overdo the vacuum.

I do not conclude from this that a lesser LP-to-platter coupling is better, because I am not certain if the coupling is wholly directly proportional to the vacuum, or perhaps there are other factors at work having to do with reflections, or new transmission paths, or vacuum leaks, or whatever.  Certainly this phenomenon could be peculiar to my TT - as opposed to all vacuum HD rigs - but even if this is the case I find it interesting.

Anyway, just in the interest of science (in its humorous guise).

I was also thinking some more about speed control and wondering about the "perfect platter bearing", whether it would indeed be friction free or perhaps it should acyually have a certain controlled viscocity/drag, in order to offset motor stepping?  I wonder if in practical terms a quite heavy platter with no perceptable drag would overcome motor cogging and related belt response?  In the case of less-than-very-heavy platters I suspect that some sort of damped "drag" might be a good thing, and perhaps best applied at the spindle as "oil", maybe multi-viscocity oil.

Lastly, if a "fully-levitated platter" is already 100 lbs. of - say - lead, then why should it have a "ground"?  Why not just let it serve as a sink all by itself?

Paul S

03-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 48
Post ID: 6930
Reply to: 6929
Thicker Oil
Paul, I think that is a very good observation.  Seems to me that a really thick grease or oil in a large bearing would offer enough friction such that the motor was always biased into an active positive torque region.  Such would be the equivalent of biasing heavier into class A, as opposed to class AB in a frictionless system.  I think of the motor/belt/platter/stylus as an analog to a single-ended output stage.  The motor can pull or coast, resulting in a non-linear system.  If in a servo loop, it speeds up faster than it can slow down.  I think oil friction might be a good solution to biasing a motor into a more linear operating region.  They key is to minimize the noise of the friction.  It must be as constant as possible.

jh
03-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 6931
Reply to: 6929
Actually another idea came to me…
I did not think about it in details – juts a brainstorming idea. Pretend you have 100 pounds 12 inch metal platter spinning 33 RPM. The platter has only two problems – suspension and horizontal bearing. The horizontal bearing is regular via a long cylinder but it has a kink about with I will mention later. The bottom of the cylinder via non-decupling gears attached to another 100 pounds cylinder but this bottom cylinder spins, I would say, 500-700 RPM. The bottom cylinder has a slight triangle curve and sits on the cushion of oil. Because the curves and high speed the bottom cylinder slightly rises and floats exploiting the skin effect. The high speed of the bottom cylinder creates a centrifuge effect that maintains the vertical axis, unloading tension from the horizontal bearing. I think it might work…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 50
Post ID: 6932
Reply to: 6931
Fluid viscocity/tension
When I was a kid we had a "Fluid Drive" Dodge that used oil rather than gears or friction plates as a torque converter.  But I suspect fluid viscocity and film strength would need to be kept very consistent for the sort of speed accuracy one needs for a TT.  As far as I know, viscocity is always +/- affected by temperature and load conditions, even multi-vis, and if this is true then there would have to be an effective way or ways to counter this in the "drive/float" TT application.

I think both lower speeds and tighter tolerances help the viscous platter bearing scenario, along with the fact that there is the drive motor, too, and the oil is merely offering resistance there.  But in either case it might help to use some sort of sensor controlled heater.

Of course we aren't crunching fluid mechanics numbers, but I wonder, practically speaking, about the potential accuracy available from fluid drive in the home (as opposed to the lab).  If do-able, fluid drive would likely cure cogging or read-and-react type effects.  This might even allow the "transparent use of a speed servo to control the fluid driver. I am not sure about moving fluids as high/low pass filters, but fluid in motion might be different than "static" fluid in these terms.

Paul S
03-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 51
Post ID: 6933
Reply to: 6931
Rotating Discs

Sounds like a Tesla turbine.

jh

03-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 6934
Reply to: 6933
Tesla?! OK, I’m in a good company! :-)

Actually I was more thinking about skin friction drag. Did you throw the stones to slide off the water? All that is necessary is speed of rotation of this thing…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_friction

In fact if this thing reaches own cruse high-speed rotation then the vertical bearing might be even dropped as it would hold itself strictly vertically under the principles of angular momentum. It is similar to the old sea navigation systems that maintained orientation in gimbals…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-17-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 53
Post ID: 6935
Reply to: 6934
A recent patent and keeping it reel
I was actually looking for something else when I ran across this:  http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6955469-description.html                          I'd need to see the drawings to figure out if/how this idea relates.

Of course Romy's idea has to be closely retained in its axes in order that the arm/cartridge could do its job well.  But at the same time it should stay +/- decoupled to keep its other advantages.  Combined fluid drive/suspension might still allow for a small captureDrinks bearing of some sort that would serve as a 3-D control point.  If the height and vertical center could be controlled this might yet beat the usual motor/belt/levitation idea.

The idea of slots and/or grooves for fluids cut into captured shafts is old, AFIK, but it is also tried and true.  I have no idea how far this idea has been taken, though.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 54
Post ID: 7019
Reply to: 40
The Da-Vinci Audio push ups.

The Swiss company Da-Vinci Audio that use to make very interesting LC phonocorrector it looks like trying to hit the jackpot with TT design. I look at all the TT that are being made I never stop wondering what the ultimate from my point of view shape of Micro Seiki 8000 never was embraced by other companies. The way how Micro did the bases was the simples possible and that allow putting in the same footprint max among of arms with unlimited design, since the arm-boards allowed spinning on their pivots. Well, it looks like the Da-Vinci has gone there:

http://www.da-vinci-audio.com/Turntable/reference_turntable.htm

They use a heavy platter with vertical magnetic bearing. The same design only with this older model according to them was 100kg – it already a solid mass. I hated their older design - it is what people do for stupid visual appeal instead of the best implementation of the functionality. The new design, it looks like it is a prototype right now is very good and it should make a TT that is very convenient to deal with. I hope then will make it with a reasonable price and I hope it will sound well. Yep, the reasonable price it is exactly what should be expected from Swiss manufactures and this US distributors!

The only criticism that I would express about the new Da-Vinci TT idea is that they allow only 2 pivots for armbords – it should be 3 as there is one extra space that is not being used. In the rest I applaud the direction the Da-Vinci Audio has gone with this new TT objectives.

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 55
Post ID: 7020
Reply to: 7019
Back to the disc/platter interface
It appears that in most cases like the DaVinci, the gigantic platter is used only as rotational mass.  And in most other cases where the manufacturer does speak of the platter as an impedance sink, either the platter material seems ill suited to the task or the disc is none-the-less poorly coupled to the platter.

I have recently seen two designs that attempt to seriously address the disc/platter interface without a vacuum holddown, namely the Townshend Rock V and the Walker.  Both of these designs use an adjustable spacer at the spindle that is said to give purchase to a wide screw-down clamp that in turn is said to do a uniform job of coupling an avaerage disc to a platter that is designed to be a sink.

The Townshend eschews the vacuum because of the cost and because of ruumors of record damage caused by particle embedment caused by the vacuum's force.  I have noticed no such damage in 20 years of using the (low pressure)vacuum, by the way, and I have never used the thin, soft mat Sota offers as a sop, either, since I prefer the sonic results when my records rest directly on the hard "interface" mat itself.  Anyway, no "embedment" issues in my case.

The most  interesting thoughts on "no vacuum", IMO, come from Lloyd Walker.  He likens the sound/effect of the vacuum holddown to the sound/effect of driving along in a modern car with the window just slightly cracked open, where whatever "it" is  "goes away" when you hit the button and the window closes tight.  Walker insists that there is always noise from even the slightest leakage along the disc/platter/stylus interface, and he insists he eschews the vacuum because his system "sounds better".

Well, I have never seen a clamp that actually creates uniform pressure across a disc the way even a low pressure vacuum can do it.  But I have not seen or tried Townshend's or Walker's systems, either.  Townshend must be re-thinking his own system, however, since he has mentioned trying a rim weight to aid the center clamp.  Again, the idea is more about the "impedance drain" than about just flattening the record, although that is a good idea, also, IMO.

Sad to say, neither of these otherwise-interesting TTs have provisions for multiple cartridges, although I suppose it would be possible to fit a multi-wand type arm onto the Townshend.  I have to say I would really like to be able to easily use a mono cartridge and also I would like to have the option to play 10" discs and 78s, as well, and I can't do any of these things at present.

C'est la Vie.

Paul S
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 7028
Reply to: 7020
The negative curve as disc/platter interface solution.

I still feel that there was nothing more elegant in the disc/platter interface invented then the negative curve and all those vacuum or “no-vacuum” solutions are half-ass solutions. The negative curving is longer to engage but it takes time until vacuum builds up as well….

I would personally discard the whole subject, as I do now, and would play the records without forcing them to do anything then just freely lay atom of platter. But I am a freak in it as I do not like even the records camps. I have camp but I hardly ever use it….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 7029
Reply to: 7028
Playing Taps

Romy, what do you mean by "the negative curving is longer to engage"?  I picture a platter that has been machined to the negative trace of the LP face but without any means to "engage" the LP unless there are further stipultions, such as weights, clamps or vacuum; in other words, the negative trace itself is just a "mirror" resting place where the disc sits +/- , according to how flat it happens to be, unless and until the disc is made to conform and sit perfectly tight by other means.  Of course Micro did have high-tech vaccuum TTs available, too, although I know nothing about them, nor do I know anything about their propritary clamps, if they had them.

It appears however that I am the oddball, with the vacuum, since the vast bulk of TTs are sold and used without any means, let alone any effective means, to couple the LP to the platter, negative curve or no, and most people who use the clamps believe they are just flattening the warped LP with them.  While many people want to think they are coupled, most of that lot basically does nothing active to ensure that it happens.

If anyone following along has used low-pressure vacuum for a while and then gone away from it, please speak up and offer some intelligent reasons for your switch.  Although Lloyd Walker makes some very interesting observations during his clamp versus vacuum arguments, the "tap test" and subsequent listening comparisons have convinced me of the generic fact that well-done coupling is very beneficial.  In my comparisons I hear no advantages in loose discs.  Needless to say I am curious to hear the Walker, although it could be pretty scary, given the ancillary equipment they all seem to use.  Even so, as I laid out in my "Balls to Shop" thread, there might still be some There there.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 7031
Reply to: 7029
I hate vinyl records ceremonies

 Paul S wrote:
Romy, what do you mean by "the negative curving is longer to engage"? 
The negative curving works only with very heavy clamp and it takes time/efforts to put the clamps on and to press it strongly.  It makes playing records as too much ceremony. The negative curving platters do not do well without clamping. It I possible to use an insert but it defeat all purposes
 Paul S wrote:
Although Lloyd Walker makes some very interesting observations during his clamp versus vacuum arguments, the "tap test" and subsequent listening comparisons have convinced me of the generic fact that well-done coupling is very beneficial.  In my comparisons I hear no advantages in loose discs.  Needless to say I am curious to hear the Walker, although it could be pretty scary, given the ancillary equipment they all seem to use. 

I am NOT a big fan of Lloyd Walker, I do not pay a lot of attention to what he says and I genially am not happy with what he does or willing to do.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
enjoy_the_music
Strasbourg, France
Posts 12
Joined on 02-21-2007

Post #: 59
Post ID: 7032
Reply to: 7031
Walker turntables and Technics sp-10mk3
Funny thing is that recently I had 4 Walker Proscuitto owners buy Technics SP-10mk3 motor units from me in a matter of 2 weeks. I think a guy in the states, who had said Walker TT, also created a plinth for the Technics and it happily put the Proscuitto to the carving knife...and that was using an SP-10mk2!

Regards

Richard
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 60
Post ID: 7033
Reply to: 7032
How likely is that?
Richard, by "Proscuitto" may I assume you mean, "Proscenium", or whatever name the Walker thing actually goes by?

Yes, the "Tech-ies" are a rabid bunch.  I love their AA threads!

Given that Walker's TTs are so dear, and anyone who buys in is thereby deeply invested, the wave of negative sentiment you describe must have generated a lot of buzz in the Walker Camp.

Certainly Walker's ideas have to be taken out of the context he himself has established for them in order to even begin thinking about them clearly.

I also dislike the extra work involved with vinyl, but I do it for the sound quality.

What happened with the Versa?


Best regards,
Paul S

Page 3 of 11 (207 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  455605  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  426107  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  386293  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  88164  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  26252  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  77571  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  26219  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  48372  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  107806  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  12968  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  10241  10-27-2010
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