| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Playback Listening » Accuracy vs. Musicality (and YMMV) (52 posts, 3 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 3 of 3 (52 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
08-29-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 453
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 41
Post ID: 27572
Reply to: 27571
Bad LP or simply another phono correction curve?
I used to think that DG had some pretty awful recordings too - and they did, but the pitch related things seem to have more to do with them not using the RIAA curve. A bit of HF tweaking brought back the balance - if the system was capable! My biggest gripe was the artistic license the recording engineers took in rebalancing the orchestra. Whoever had a solo was brought to front center - until the solo was over, then it was like they walked back to their proper seat.

It was great that those engineers actually learned how to read the scores, but many missed the part of the composers intentions...


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
08-29-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,636
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 42
Post ID: 27573
Reply to: 27572
Sound Engineers as UberConductors,
The pipe dream might be a well-located "figure 8 pair" of mics that stays there through the performance, with set gain. However, like so many things in audio, we have no control over these processes and practices. In fact, considering the problems we encounter, from recordings, to equipment, to rooms, to electricity, it seems unlikely going in that we could ever get Musical Satisfaction from hi-fi. As far as the DGG pitch thing, I think they did as many sound engineers do, they cut curves they thought would sound best to their putative customers when played back on their putative record players. Yeah, they got it wrong with us, but someone gave them gold laurels. And it's not news to most GSC habitues that "equipment manufacturers" take the same approach. It took me a long time to build a system that's "boring" end-to-end. I think it's fair to say that most gear is pretty much swamped by signature sound, often of the sort that highlights something as it omits or even wrecks else. i would say (if asked), if your recordings sound "all over the place", you are doing something right. Getting Music from most recordings is another matter, of course, and it's easier (and normal) to fall back on "good-sounding gear". "The Industry" is still here to serve those who still operate in this mode.

Paul S
08-31-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 453
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 43
Post ID: 27579
Reply to: 27573
I think that the history of microphone placement is very fascinating.
The english have just about written the book on quality playback imaging:
UK Blümlein AB - 1931

UK Blümlein MS - 1933

UK Blümlein Binaural - 1933

US Harvey Fletcher - 1933 Curtain of sound, extreme multitrack - not really stereo or for a specific playback image)

UK Hardy Decca Tree - 1954

F   ORTF - 1960

additional info:https://www.overgrownpath.com/2013/03/music-to-listener-or-listener-to-music.html


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
08-31-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,636
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 44
Post ID: 27580
Reply to: 27579
The Performance vs. Playback
It's a hoot to look up prices for restored "classic" microphones. And how many times was I smitten by the Sound of Music recorded by some of these classic microphones? Many. I wonder if anyone has made a list of and/or collected recordings that used these microphones and techniques? I will share here that the first time I heard an original Blue Note (RVG) I realized I'd been had by marketing of Classic "Quiex" copies. Day and Night, and NOT in favor of the newer copies! However, as interesting in its own right the study of recording techniques, we still have to make the basic choice of whether to "tune for the best recordings" or try for more choices in terms of program material. As I keep sharing here, I caught myself going down the first path, with lots of records and CDs I did not want to hear, and I turned around and basically re-tuned my system to where I could get more Music from more recordings. I think my system had earlier been like the "hot mic". And I will say that early efforts on my part to turn things around included adjusting operating points of gain stages. There were many other steps I also took before I got things where I wanted them, and - ironically - both my DAC and my phono stage are running hotter now than ever before, as I figured out how to get the differences without the "heat" via the speakers, which is where it counts, right.

Paul S
09-13-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,636
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 45
Post ID: 27592
Reply to: 27580
The Play of Differences

One might say that our perception of reality depends on our perception, internal processing, and organization of the Play of Differences. In any case, audible differences are certainly critical to my perception and appreciation of Music. Time to beat the topology drum again, because this is the only path I know for “maximizing differences”, fining them, and bringing relevant differences into critical focus. How this is done, or whether it is done at all, depends on system topology. All gear imposes limits of one sort and/or another. Some gear imposes hard limits. The art of audio is getting acceptable results with the gear of ones choosing.>>


Paul S

09-18-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 453
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 46
Post ID: 27596
Reply to: 27592
There is an important state of "good enough"
In my world, the art of audio is learning to live with what you have. We are creatures of habit and are what we repeatedly do. There is an acclimation period for humans that can never be counted in minutes, hours or even days. Even good habits are the result of long term repetition. I believe those that search their whole lives for minute "improvements" in dynamics, color or any other audiophile parameter are missing the most important one - our own minds.

There are so many posts about gear improving this or that - but those people never talk about their own perception. What did they learn about the performance during the last listening session.

I am a professional trumpeter and other trumpeters have a similar problem: the search for the perfect mouthpiece that makes everything easier, better in tune and more dynamic. I consider these people to be lost souls. Human beings make music, not trumpets. We develop our own voice when we STOP making changes and develop what we have. If we rob ourselves of the opportunity to become intimate with our playback, our instrument, our mouthpiece, our "impressions" are essentially random. We limit our perception to being based on something that we have no deep understanding of.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-18-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,636
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 27597
Reply to: 27596
Again With Time...
Too true, Robin. Surely, whatever it is that initially "impresses" us is subject to change... along with everything else. It seems obvious, but perhaps it needs telling again, the part where, if one doesn't hear it, one doesn't hear it, regardless of electronics, etc. For sure, it can take a while, or even a long while for gear to break in, for us to find the right locations, configurations, settings, and listening position, on and on, and - as you say - for us to become familiar and "in tune" with the Music we are getting from our system(s). It's a lot to process. Not to mention what we are hearing and "targeting" in the first place. Full circle to Personal Audio.

Best regards,
Paul S
09-20-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 342
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 48
Post ID: 27598
Reply to: 27596
Where is happyness?
 rowuk wrote:
In my world, the art of audio is learning to live with what you have. We are creatures of habit and are what we repeatedly do. There is an acclimation period for humans that can never be counted in minutes, hours or even days. Even good habits are the result of long term repetition. I believe those that search their whole lives for minute "improvements" in dynamics, color or any other audiophile parameter are missing the most important one - our own minds.

There are so many posts about gear improving this or that - but those people never talk about their own perception. What did they learn about the performance during the last listening session.

I am a professional trumpeter and other trumpeters have a similar problem: the search for the perfect mouthpiece that makes everything easier, better in tune and more dynamic. I consider these people to be lost souls. Human beings make music, not trumpets. We develop our own voice when we STOP making changes and develop what we have. If we rob ourselves of the opportunity to become intimate with our playback, our instrument, our mouthpiece, our "impressions" are essentially random. We limit our perception to being based on something that we have no deep understanding of.

Robin, Many years ago I convinced my happyness my joy comes from music and audio has no role. audio is another world and advancing sound is not related to my music listening. Yes sure I love high end audio and I really enjoy it but my music listening does not depend on my playback.
Happyness is about our mind state


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
09-20-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,636
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 49
Post ID: 27599
Reply to: 27598
If Not For Music, Then Why Audio?
"Re-creating" music might be "impossible", practically speaking, but isn't the whole idea of home hi-fi to use the system to listen to Music? I think that even during my most manic periods of messing with the system itself I've had the idea - however mistaken -  that I would get "more" from the Music by working some magic or other on the system. I hope no ones total happiness is tied up with hi-fi, but I think it takes some sort of expectations going in to de-randomize the process. I mean, the minute one doesn't care, the tether is cut and the whole process becomes arbitrary. After all, Meaning does not inhere in the system, rather it derives from ones relationship with the system. And what is the system without the Music? I suppose that's not a problem if system building is an end in iself. However, in that case, why visit and post in this particular forum? I haven't really meditated on it, but I think I have fairly high aesthetic expectations for Music from my playback, perhaps - in some ways - higher than when I attend a concert. So, one might say the investment is a sort of speculation. However, that system is worth nothing to me without the Music.

Paul S
09-21-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 453
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 50
Post ID: 27600
Reply to: 27599
There IS high end without music!
I believe that an advanced love for technology is as valid a reason for high end as music appreciation is.Chasing any declared goal is legitimate in my view. What disturbs me about high end is when the goals become elite with the sole purpose of locking the less worthy out. All of the top musicians, managers and engineers that I have had the pleasure of working with, share freely - even with those who do not understand.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-21-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,113
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 27601
Reply to: 27600
Isn't it all about a regular creativity?

This is very interesting subject and my position about it very much not orthodox. Yes from certain perspective high end are there might be observed in context of evolved music listening experiences. In my view it is very surface point of view. I have plenty of people with whom we interact about very deep music listening experiences but over the years I never even ask them what playback they have, I do not even know if they practice audio in any sense. What is particular interesting that when I stress some specific points which might be observed only from a perspective of high-end audio they are completely with me or at least understand what I'm talking about. 


I am not elso in a complete agreement with that position above that it has something to do with love of technology. It of course might be, but not necessaraly necessary. 


I certainly not to pretend that my position would be some kind of universal and this is strongly my take on subject. I would point out to you my signature from the Friedrich. Before typewriter invention he was writing his work by the hands but when typewriter come to the existence he begin to type. In few years he observed by act of typing in the structured format, which typewriter demands, change the way how he began to think. There is his quote come from. I think it is very similar, at least to me, in regards of audio and music. I have an interest in certain musical expressionism and for me audio  is an invention of that proverbial typewriter, in order my thoughts be developed in a format that I approve. It is sort of a reverse engineering of my own consciousness and rendered by the means of application of audio algorithms.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-21-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,636
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 52
Post ID: 27603
Reply to: 27601
The Thread That Joins Us
I hope we all believe and support the idea that "it's a free country", and anyone might freely express whatever they want with their audio pursuits. The topic of this thread might have been anything, but it is "Accuracy vs. Musicality (and YMMV)", to mine that particular, long-beleaguered topic. I suppose we usually pretty much beat any topic to death here, but the idea of objectives going in is fair game in this thread, I think, and it certainly helps to put various viewpoints into some context. I am glad that Romy created a new thread to jab "the industry" in this context, also glad he pointed out that there is not only nothing wrong with buying gear but added it is the sense of what one is doing that creates the atmosphere one breathes and inhabits while indulging in what is fundamentally a hobby for most of us. I don't remember audio being in Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs.

Paul S
Page 3 of 3 (52 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts