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09-17-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 41
Post ID: 17020
Reply to: 17018
Again at variance with you. But 'variable' it will not be I hope.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Hm, the Injection channel via Lecleach? The MF via Lecleach? I wonder why people then are complaining about the vertical limitations. Anyhow, closer to the point.



My mistake. I should not use the term Lecleach on this site. In any case, I wanted to say Fundamental Channel and not Injection channel. And yes I'm perfectly aware of the vertical problems of having Lecleach profiles with a multi-way system and none of the horns I have ordered are LeCleach - they are all tractrix. I did some comparisons with the S2 in a Lecleach horn whilst a friend was here a few months ago. It was not a'kosher' comparison' but I personally preferred the LeCleach even though admittedly the horns from someone in Australia were not how I would have built them. It would be fair to say that my friend who likes the LeCleach felt the 400Hz tractrix combined better with his Fane in a Stereolab 140Hz upperbass horn. But all of this is really not pertinent to the subject of my post really as I doubt I will be able to accomodate Lecleach profiles and would only like to do these comparisons much later on for the sake of my own education.

So let's see if your advice makes any rational sense to me in my given set of circumstances. 



 Romy the Cat wrote:

If I were you then I would not do what you are doing now – I mean to design frame. I know it sounds odd – I am advocating thinking about frame but at the same time I am persuading do not make frame. Ironically there is no conflict in it and if to look deeper then I see a lot of rational in my position.

What kind frame a person can come up with if he does not know what configuration of playback he will end up with? Yes, you can make the very flexible frame that can accommodate many setting buy why do you need a flexible frame if in the end the frame will care only one final configuration? The specific and non- flexible frame will be better anyhow, I hope we all agree with it…



There are only two points that you make here. Since I don't know what configuration I will end up with, I should not worry and waste my energies designing and building a frame for now. I do not agree. The frame is as you say part and parcel of the final system and given that it is multi-way, one needs to at least be able to set up and position three channels relative to each other in the vertical and horizontal plane. Your method of simply fixing the MF atop the upperbass horn which is what I would have to do would make it close to impossible for me to change the spacing between these two channels other than in a very rough and ready fashion. A flexible frame even if I should eventually replace it with a better fixed one (I do not see any compelling reason why I should do this even if my 'flexible' frame is not the optimum solution) is better than no frame at all.

What clinches this argument for me is that I need to find the correct location for these horns in a fairly large room (it is 6mx7m albeit with ceiling height of 2.35m and with a beam going across). I can try to locate the horns across four walls.There is no way that I will be able to easily try these different solutions without an easy means of moving these bulky/heavy horns. What better way than having a frame on wheels?


 Romy the Cat wrote:


Also, it is about a lifestyle. I do not know in what British castle you live but my experience with all folks who go for large multi-sell, including my own, indicate that soon of later they all move to larger listening rooms. I think it is some kind of virus….



The castle where I live in in the UK does not have a suitable room which could accomodate a multi-way horn system (the largest room here is a dainty 3mx6m). Le Horn is a multi-way system that is intended for my house in France in Ribeauville, where my family moved to as planned two months ago. The house in France has a gorgeous room which is 6mx7m and even with the limitation of relatively low ceilings, it's the best room I have ever had and I only have to close my eyes to hear how good Le Horn will sound here. I agree that in a couple of years' time I will be hopefully moving to an even better room but life is too short to be always waiting for the next house move...


 Romy the Cat wrote:


So, I would advise to not be in hurry. Build the bone – the MF and Upperbass. Do not do any tweeters or and any ridicules Injection channel. Put your MF and Upperbass “on the books”, ad some LF and play them as is for a few months. Set the crossovers, find an amp that you like, discover Bruckner, get married and bring your company to public offering.



At the very beginning of this project, I decided I would take my time over this and start with the Upperbass and MF channels (it made sense to get all these horns as the price was risibly low for 4 pairs of tractrix horns custom made for my drivers, the Lecleach 322Hz by Marco Henri of 'La Grande Castine' was a complete fluke picked up for close to nothing in Belgium), see some specs and measurements below

LxJ0sUFZgQJ:cyrille.pinton.free.fr/electroac/experiences/pavillons-2445j/pavillons_2445j.html+Musique+Concrete+J322&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk" href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cacheTongue TiedLxJ0sUFZgQJ:cyrille.pinton.free.fr/electroac/experiences/pavillons-2445j/pavillons_2445j.html+Musique+Concrete+J322&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk">http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cacheTongue TiedLxJ0sUFZgQJ:cyrille.pinton.free.fr/electroac/experiences/pavillons-2445j/pavillons_2445j.html+Musique+Concrete+J322&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

As I said above, I meant Fundamental Channel when I wrote Injection Channel. This is not the time or place to talk about the Injection Channel but it is for me an anomaly to need such a channel, and although I have the Tannoy 10" reds lying in wait, I have little motivation to even try these and if I do this will not be before a couple of years. I am working on the Bruckner and although I started listening to the complex works by Beethoven from a very early age (I mean around 15!), Anton Bruckner I find a little hard to enjoy...

Adding some LF, yes I am working on this (intellectually). Setting crossovers, finding an amp, tick, tick. Getting married? Did that a long time ago to a most gorgeous woman and it was the very best thing I ever did for sure...


 Romy the Cat wrote:

Rakesh, I know that internet audio people are looking for specific recommendations formed in inchers, decibels and brands.  I assure you that audio is not only about technologies but also about self-discovery of moments of realization. From what I know about audio the upperbass channel and MF channel that you looks like will built will be phenomenal music exploration devises, good enough to last most likely to the rest of your life. The rest that audio that you plan I think will be variable.  I do understand that you have a tendency to get all together right the way. You most likely not a teenager, so tell me how much “all together right the way” have worked in other aspect of your life?



I do not care very much for specific recommendations and there is very little advice coming from anyone that I tend to follow. My question was a fairly generic one regarding the location of especially the Upperbass and MF channels with respect to each other. I mentioned this question here as someone may have had a thought or two based on personal experience which might have been a good starting point for locating the supporting rods in the main mast. I fully intend to work it out for myself so maybe the question was redundant anyway.



 Romy the Cat wrote:

 I assure you that audio is not only about technologies but also about self-discovery of moments of realization.



Agreed. I would like to add that these moments of self-realisation do not happen randomly. You have first of all to make the right choices to give these moments a more than likely chance of actually occurring in the first place.


 Romy the Cat wrote:


From what I know about audio the upperbass channel and MF channel that you looks like will built will be phenomenal music exploration devises, good enough to last most likely to the rest of your life.



This is good news indeed.


 Romy the Cat wrote:


The rest that audio that you plan I think will be variable.  I do understand that you have a tendency to get all together right the way. You most likely not a teenager, so tell me how much “all together right the way” have worked in other aspect of your life?

Rgs, Romy the Cat


I do not know Romy. I do not know where I will go after living with the Upperbass/MF/LF solution for a year or longer. Maybe just add a tweeter and enjoy my music collection or go to more concerts with my family as the children grow up. That could just be good enough for me. Whatever it is, and I do not think I know any more than I do, it will not be just 'variable' I hope.

Best regards
Rakesh








09-17-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 17021
Reply to: 17020
Different frames for different directions.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 oxric wrote:
My mistake. I should not use the term Lecleach on this site.

There is absolutely nothing prohibitive in Lecleach profile, it works very nice for HF but the La profile shall not be used in cases where vertical clearance is critical. Guess what? Anyone who do not stick a single Fostex in a horn and call it an acoustic system but instead go multi-channel, any single person have vertical challenge. Even if you have 50 feet ceiling then you still would want to keep your stuck of horns lower and closer to each other.

 oxric wrote:
In any case, I wanted to say Fundamental Channel and not Injection channel.

OK, if does make more sense. Your mentioning of horn loaded Injection channel that you “desisted” before having the playback up did sound a bit foolish.

 oxric wrote:
And yes I'm perfectly aware of the vertical problems of having Lecleach profiles with a multi-way system and none of the horns I have ordered are LeCleach - they are all tractrix. I did some comparisons with the S2 in a Lecleach horn whilst a friend was here a few months ago. It was not a'kosher' comparison' but I personally preferred the LeCleach even though admittedly the horns from someone in Australia were not how I would have built them. It would be fair to say that my friend who likes the LeCleach felt the 400Hz tractrix combined better with his Fane in a Stereolab 140Hz upperbass horn. But all of this is really not pertinent to the subject of my post really as I doubt I will be able to accomodate Lecleach profiles and would only like to do these comparisons much later on for the sake of my own education.

When you say that your preferred the LeCleach over tractrix then can you elaborate what specifically your preference were based upon?

 oxric wrote:
There are only two points that you make here. Since I don't know what configuration I will end up with, I should not worry and waste my energies designing and building a frame for now. I do not agree. The frame is as you say part and parcel of the final system and given that it is multi-way, one needs to at least be able to set up and position three channels relative to each other in the vertical and horizontal plane. Your method of simply fixing the MF atop the upperbass horn which is what I would have to do would make it close to impossible for me to change the spacing between these two channels other than in a very rough and ready fashion. A flexible frame even if I should eventually replace it with a better fixed one (I do not see any compelling reason why I should do this even if my 'flexible' frame is not the optimum solution) is better than no frame at all.

Ok, I would not disagree and do not insist in anything. I just bring my own example- if I design my frame today then it would be slightly different then what I have done in 2006.

 oxric wrote:
clinches this argument for me is that I need to find the correct location for these horns in a fairly large room (it is 6mx7m albeit with ceiling height of 2.35m and with a beam going across). I can try to locate the horns across four walls. There is no way that I will be able to easily try these different solutions without an easy means of moving these bulky/heavy horns. What better way than having a frame on wheels?

I was under impression that you do know where you will be positioning your horns. Did you have a playback, any playback, in your listening room before? If yeas then you shell know your room sonically.

 oxric wrote:
My question was a fairly generic one regarding the location of especially the Upperbass and MF channels with respect to each other. I mentioned this question here as someone may have had a thought or two based on personal experience which might have been a good starting point for locating the supporting rods in the main mast. I fully intend to work it out for myself so maybe the question was redundant anyway.

There is no definitive answers to it. I use visual clearance from listening position. As long as I can see from my listening position the bottom edge of the MF horn I consider that the clearance is set. How different would it be if it was not “just clearance” but 4.75cm of clearance I do not know.

 oxric wrote:
I do not know Romy. I do not know where I will go after living with the Upperbass/MF/LF solution for a year or longer. Maybe just add a tweeter and enjoy my music collection or go to more concerts with my family as the children grow up. That could just be good enough for me. Whatever it is, and I do not think I know any more than I do, it will not be just 'variable' I hope.
Why do you care? You just said that you do not know. Make it work, observe the result and go with flow from that. You might not feel a need for nether Fundamental or Injection. You might feel a need for another type of MF or Upperbass. You might lose interest I audio and fall in love with archeology.   Those all continuations would require different frames….

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-17-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 43
Post ID: 17022
Reply to: 17021
Listening to the S2s for the first time. A long time ago.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 oxric wrote:
And yes I'm perfectly aware of the vertical problems of having Lecleach profiles with a multi-way system and none of the horns I have ordered are LeCleach - they are all tractrix. I did some comparisons with the S2 in a Lecleach horn whilst a friend was here a few months ago. It was not a'kosher' comparison' but I personally preferred the LeCleach even though admittedly the horns from someone in Australia were not how I would have built them. It would be fair to say that my friend who likes the LeCleach felt the 400Hz tractrix combined better with his Fane in a Stereolab 140Hz upperbass horn. But all of this is really not pertinent to the subject of my post really as I doubt I will be able to accomodate Lecleach profiles and would only like to do these comparisons much later on for the sake of my own education.

When you say that your preferred the LeCleach over tractrix then can you elaborate what specifically your preference were based upon?



This comparison goes back to so many months ago and lasted for so little time that I hesitate to attach much importance to any of it.

The first time I listened to the S2 I was shocked by how bad they sounded, and could not be sure which I hated more, the nasal sound of the S2 or the honkiness which at the time I thought derived from the horns they were in. After this, I listened to them when I got to try them on the 400Hz Azura horn LeCleach and the Stereolab tractrix quite a few months ago and the rest of the system was such a mishmash of unlikely partners that I am not too sure my comments are worth taking too seriously at all. The amp was the Almarro 318A or 318B. We had 6-7 S2s here, some of them clearly had problems and were unlistenable but one or two of these gave us what I would now call the idiosyncratic S2 sound. Although the S2 crossed at 500Hz sounded good lower down, I would say what appealed most to me was its lack of distortion, transient speed and detail above. It was something that I thought only electrostatic speakers could achieve but the S2 put the life back into the proceedings and I did not know at the time whether to characterise it as some form of coloration or just having more tone than anything that I had heard until then. It could be for any number of reasons, but the LeCleach Azurahorn crossed high with a 3uF capacitor sounded more natural, with maybe less of the nasal character which I still could detect  underneath it all as some aftertaste of cheese that stays in your mouth long after you have had it . What is even more confusing is that I have now been told by Mike of Vitavox that some of my diaphragms were clearly not original Vitavox issue. Later on, I had a chance to listen to the S2 with plastic surrounds diaphragms in a single 400Hz Stereolab tractrix with the Fane 8Ms in a 140Hz Stereolab Uperbass horn. It is this memory that has convinced me most of the potential of the S2s but on that occasion we did not have the Azurahorn to hand. With regard to the construction of the Azurahorns, there are several reasons why I do not think they are ideal in terms of their construction. They ring quite badly, they are very light and they have a very glossy finish...My Musique Concrete 322Hz Lecleach by Marco Henri are considerably more promising... My horns once they are ready will be delivered to my place in France. I would like to take the Musique Concrete there and listen to these alongside the new tractrix horns, once I manage to buy, borrow or steal some suitable amps. I have over the course of the past two years sold all my amplifiers(other than some old Sony V-fet amps) including my battery powered Audio Consulting only two weeks ago...

With regard to the new listening room in France, I have of course never used it for listening to music as I have only moved there two months ago and most of my equipment is still here in the UK. The children’s toys, my wife’s clothes and some items of furniture had to take precedence when we moved believe it or not.

Best regards
Rakesh

09-17-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 17023
Reply to: 17022
Again, the last time, about La-horns vs. tractrix
fiogf49gjkf0d
Of cause your reply does not cover the subject that I was asking, which is fine, I do not mind. The subtle point that I constantly was trying to make (and that looks like escapes from understanding of the people who are afraid to use the term Lecleach within this site) is that in context of practical results of 4-5 ways vertical horn arrangement the very insignificant HF advantages of La-horns negative opening (primary in imaging department) are getting offset by the damage that La-horns caused by vertical expansion. I do not mention that use of MF La-horns and the rest of horns tractrix is not visually peasant. The constant argument that I have “criticizing” Lecleach’s idea doe not derive to the problem with La-profile but from my desire to look at the horns profile as a part of larger picture. The fact that a full-range loaded La-profile with some kind of Fostex did better measurements at the Lecleach’s test bench does not mean that his findings might be applied to practical playback setup. Everyone do understand the benefits of continue curve at HF (look at my Water Drop Driver) but the whole key is not to advocate the theory blindly but recognizing the theory lessons try organically get out of the theory same practical results. Practically, in my estimation, use of the La-horns increases the minimum listening distance the horn might be properly integrated. If person does not care about it and his planed listening distance to begin from is very large then at this distance the advantage of the La-horns at higher frequencies absolutely has no advantage over tractrix.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 18554
Reply to: 3339
Red, green and blue...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Going over the floor project and temporary removing the Macondo from the room I am considering to charge the color of Macondo’s frame. The Macondo’s frame is black not, so the horns. I consider to keep the horns back as they are not but to re-paint the frame in dark grey, introducing two colors schema.





"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 18557
Reply to: 18554
Hardwood Floors Sliders
fiogf49gjkf0d
After looking at the different solution I desired to use under the bottom of Macondo the regular felt sliders. This give the best slide and firmness and it will look attractive and I am not wild about the even very small wheels. The point is that the Macondo will be moving only short period of time and is the position is found it will not be moved anyhow. So, the default position will be stationary and I do not want to complex it with some kind of fancier rolling solution. I am looking now for nice sheet slider. I think each speaker will use 3-4 sq feet that would be very enough to unload the whole speaker mass


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,197
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 18560
Reply to: 18557
Parquet
fiogf49gjkf0d
You are wise to avoid point loads on wood floors, and especially so with parquet.  Generally speaking, prefinished parquet pieces tend to be more vulnerable, although any parquet that is not sanded flat and finished following installation is more prone to edge damage than job-finished parquet.  Basically, proper prep and installation are important, once a good grade of parquet is chosen.  If your basement is "conditioned", then a vapor barrier may be surperfluous.  But be sure to ask the contractor and the installer about this.  No doubt you will find the tough, synthetic felt that is used for sliders.

Best regards,
Paul S
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  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  230356  05-14-2005
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  48072  05-18-2005
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  115159  10-29-2005
  »  New  Summary: my/your audio: year by year..  The 2017...  Audio Discussions  Forum     44  284512  12-29-2006
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  713767  02-16-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  431792  07-29-2007
  »  New  My (Amplification + Acoustic System): what is next?..  Macondo and Melquiades in the NEW room....  Audio Discussions  Forum     41  221858  01-10-2008
  »  New  Macondo’s MiniMe or about Pilot Acoustic Systems..  Injection Pilot?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     213  1515712  09-03-2008
  »  New  MacondoLite..  The Count Alessandro di Cagliostro’s methods....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  134871  08-15-2009
  »  New  Adding one more non-spherical to Macondo...  Horn suggestions for 300Hz-1000Hz channel...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  177048  12-15-2010
  »  New  Stands for Super Melquiades...  Wavac Audio Lab 805MK-II...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     6  52916  08-02-2006
  »  New  Rakeshorns..  Excellent walls....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  206030  08-26-2011
  »  New  Looking to brainstorm stand ideas..  Fair enough...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  11346  12-06-2011
  »  New  Canadian Speaker Proposal..  Drivers/Speakers As Filters...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     56  231239  06-21-2013
  »  New  Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...  Room treatment...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     73  112650  01-20-2016
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