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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» The Ridiculous Japa-Brazilian horn. (55 posts, 3 pages)
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  »  New  Problems with horns: mid-range horns...  First or second order for 1" driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  92115  07-21-2004
  »  New  Barn Conversion - James' Project..  The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     28  325788  02-04-2007
  »  New  German Odeon horns...  How would I play with Odeons…the murky water....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     13  142471  04-01-2007
  »  New  Looking at the pictures of playback installations...  Come on, teasers!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  32907  07-17-2007
  »  New  Greek Anima Loudspeakers..  I wish the TuneAudio stay with whatever subs they do....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     32  197893  11-03-2009
03-07-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 3933
Reply to: 3927
Let, Return back to the Brazilian horn...

 Merlin wrote:
Sorry I don't think you understand. Maybe it's because English is no doubt your second language - a shame as it makes intelligent conversation difficult. Try to read through it again.

I have never been on any Tannoy forum - didn't even know they had one.

I've never called this system moronic - you have.

Merlin, ironically I feel the very same about you, go figure? I think you might be also benefited to read through the thread again and the most important to try some of the practical things himself. Not necessarily in order to prove to me where I was wrong and Moronic (live it to my biographers) but in order to discover where I was coming from. Try also the “plugged pe1mmk” site. You might find it entertaining; he told at his site that has made Tannoy Gold to have 110dB sensitivity. Very funny! I have a car that goes 4535 miles per gallon and a girlfriend who like new MC cartridges more then new diamonds.  BTW, the “plugged pe1mmk” also believes that if anyone has any doubts about his views on any subjects (and particularly on the subject where he is objectively clawless) then this person has problems with basic English. Anyhow, my apologies that I was under impression that you are from the Tannoy camp as you and the “plugged one” jointed this site together.  Now, let return back to the Brazilian horns, if anything else is left to talk about that horns….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-08-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
pe1mmk
Posts 5
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #: 42
Post ID: 3953
Reply to: 3933
plugged pe1mmk
I have treated you decent on the Tannoy Yahoo Group. Now look how you treat me here.
You have again disqualified yourself. I am very sorry to see this happen, I did not think you do this.
:-(
Kind regards,
PE1MMK
03-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 3956
Reply to: 3953
Unless you are wiling me to completely ignor you...
 pe1mmk wrote:
I have treated you decent on the Tannoy Yahoo Group. Now look how you treat me here.
You have again disqualified yourself. I am very sorry to see this happen, I did not think you do this.
:-(
Kind regards,
PE1MMK
Pe1mmk,

What do you mean “treatment”, what do you mean “pluged the site”? Are you out of your mind? I care less how you treat me or I treat you and particularly I care less about any “treatment” in context of environment stuffed with easy-to-be-thrilled-by-nothing accumulations or yahoos - something that you breed at your group. My definition of decent treatment is not the public “sucking each other dick” (according to Tarantino) or worshiping the deal labels but a demonstration of some respect to the subject and objectives – something that your group and you do not have. Talking about the subjects: among the 6 posts that you have made at THIS site all of them were not on the subject. When you tried to make it look as it was on the subject then it always sounded as you do not even understood what the subject was all about. So, do not blame the massager when I suggest you to review own ability to deal with audio ideas in no BS environment. Please do not continue to reply in this thread is you do not feel that it would be related to the Brazilian horn.

Rsg, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
pe1mmk
Posts 5
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #: 44
Post ID: 3957
Reply to: 3956
delete
you can delete me as user of this forum.
03-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 3958
Reply to: 3957
A boring experiment with another Pavlovian dog…
You never were a user of this forum. All that you did was jumping at this site, looking a few pictures and then accusing others that you do not understated what you can’s not understated. Why do you think anyone should care? Perhaps sometimes you will learn that there is a lot more to audio then finding some externals means to exercised own simplicity. Thanks, BTW, for booting me today from you Tannoy groups. Even in that you were a perfectly manageable marionette, complete within the scope of your Pavlovian reflexes. Good-bye.... and nd welcome to the club of them.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-13-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 3995
Reply to: 3861
A tweeter in that Brazilian Horn
I asked my Japanese speaking friend to translate for me the information about the tweeter in that Brazilian installation. It is JBL UT-045Be, I never have seen/heard it, and so I presume many others…

25mm beryllium spherical diaphragm, 52mm circular neodymium magnet, Aluminum die-cast frame, horizontal 60°× vertical 30° with adjustable horn profile, external adjustable crossover, 50W power handling, sensitivity is from 98dB to 102dB, Recommendation crossover frequency 16kHz/20kHz/24kHz (- 24dB/oct), Impedance 4R, mass 1Kg. Price: 500,000 yean (roughly $5K)…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 47
Post ID: 10351
Reply to: 3893
More damping materials
fiogf49gjkf0d
jd, may I ask what is the name of the damping material you refer to? I am stuck trying to find a suitable damping material for a 140Hz horn.

Another option that comes to mind is heavy rope: simply wound tightly round the horn. Something natural like manila should be solid enough.

Rgds, d




04-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 48
Post ID: 10356
Reply to: 10351
Spanish damping
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello D,
Its sold by the meter, and has no packaging, so there was no name to note; I do remember that it came from Spain. Could not find any info on the net, however, I often pass by the place that sold it to me, so will stop in and ask. Hope they still have it; if they don't, they should know where to get it.
jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
04-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 49
Post ID: 10361
Reply to: 10356
Interior vs exterior damping
fiogf49gjkf0d
Very many thanks, Jessie.

Presumably damping the interior may also be desirable where the horn is quite thin. I know there has been a lot of discussion on this site about the right quality of paint, but mostly in the context of heavy MDF horns. What is the view on heavy damping paints such as this: http://www.cascadeaudio.com/marine/vb_1x_damping_compound.htm ?
04-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 50
Post ID: 10367
Reply to: 10361
Damping with VB-1X
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.cascadeaudio.com/marine/vb_1x_damping_compound.htm

After reading the tech notes on VB-1X, I have difficulty with the manufacturer's claim that the product is effective at damping frequencies down to 10Hz, when at the same time they specify a coating that measures only "1/32 - 1/16 inch" in depth...

This product seems to be conceived mostly for automotive use. In this context (sheet metal panels), I would say that as much of the benefit comes from the added mass to the panel, as from the product's capacity for "converting vibration into viscous friction" (potential quote of the week there).

Composition-wise, no details are given as to the liquid component, but as it cleans up with water, I would guess it to be a thickened latex (sort of like thick latex house paint). As for solids, "silica-mica ceramics"; I will say only that silica is the primary component of common sand.

Along the same lines, you may want to check out 3M "Body Schutz" and other paintable rubberized coatings : http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/c-577-undercoatings.aspx
Also available in aerosol cans that work very well.

Unless building up an abnormally thick coat, none of the above will be as effective as the previously-mentioned 1/4" thick, semi-cured rubber product from Spain, however, it is important to note that this stuff is not paintable, and is the color of peanut butter.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
04-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 51
Post ID: 10368
Reply to: 10367
Reflections
fiogf49gjkf0d
Lots of bs on their site, I agree, and the spanish product would clearly be very much better. I was wondering, though, what one might use on the inside of a round horn where one cannot easily put in thick materials. There a paint of some sort would seem the only option, and if it does not produce very much structural damping it might help attenuate within-horn reflections, no? Perhaps with a round tractrix reflections are not so important anyhow.

In any case, 3M paint looks like much better value for similar functionality: many thanks for the suggestion.

best, d

 


04-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 52
Post ID: 10390
Reply to: 10368
Where to get the Super Spanish Damper
fiogf49gjkf0d

So, I stopped by the place that sold me the "semi-cured" rubber sound insulation to get a product reference. The dude wouldn't give me any info, only that he could get as much as I need, and ship it anywhere (welcome to France!).


But... He did spill the words "masse polymère"... And that was enough: I have cracked the case... 


Check this out : http://www.texsa.com/index.asp?i=3&prod=14


Looks like they even have a US distributor.


Before finding this site, I translated a French site, which I might as well include here :


"Range of high density visco-elastic (without bitumin) synthetique membranes. Available with or without adhesive backing, permitting the direct application to different types of substrates.


Intended for acoustic insulation of inclined roofs, vertical walls (either periferal or internal), ducting, floors and ceilings.


With adhesive backing : Tecsound S 35/ 60/ 70/ 100 and Tecsound SY 50/ 70

Without adhesive backing : Tecsound 35/ 60/ 70/ 100


Also available : 


A composite laminate including a layer of sound absorbing felt : Tecsound FT 40/ 75/ 55AL


A composite laminate including two layers of sound absorbing felt and one layer of visco-elastic synthetique membrane: Tecsound 2FT 45/ 80


Available in thicknesses from 1.8  to 24 mm"


http://produits-btp.batiproduits.com/Texsa/Tecsound/fiche/r?id=1543720266


Voilà!


jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
04-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 53
Post ID: 10391
Reply to: 10390
Sourcing tecsound
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Jessie, very many thanks for the info: looks like it should be easy to source in the UK, indeed their website lists several UK projects.
09-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
DERRICK
Posts 1
Joined on 09-20-2009

Post #: 54
Post ID: 11789
Reply to: 3995
More on those Brazillian Horns!!...and Be Yamamura.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I bought those tweeters for Be Yamamura (second hand from Paul at Wembly Loudspeakers, in London)  I also took Be to Heathrow Airport to take a plane to Brazil to install one of his truly superb VT4c stereo amps!   It was the morning of a great wind storm which brought London to a halt.  I met the 'Brazilian' in London but have not heard those particular horns.  I DID hear the prototypes, now in Italy.   They were great with heavy rock music but less impressive with accoustic classical.  They were extremely fast dynamics,good imaging and a lot of get up and go.  They were the first of a line of big horns, the very first pair went to the editor of an Italian music magazine.  The eventual made from cork models developed after Be had moved to Italy were a totally different speaker, though of similar shape.  They first used Lowther drivers with much modification, rear loading the bass and front loading the mid-range treble with an assymetrical multi-horn.  The total system was made with all external and internal surfaces from natural cork.

I will attempt to load some pictures in the next week or two of the later horns.  I have to work out how - this is my first post to your site.

These speakers were eventually made in a very tall type with a driver which Be specified and which had novel concepts such as a carbon fibre spider. 

Be made a very big contribution and never was happy with less than the best he could make, and when he had learned what he wanted to learn he moved on to the next distillation of his knowledge and talent.  His amplifiers were initially all DHT SETs using mainly 211/VT4c tubes, but later he moved to current output designs.  I still have one of these and had a 211 with brass and carbon Western Electric VT4c tubes.  (Most had ex German Luftwaffe Telefunken tubes.) for a couple of years.   Almost everyone much preferred this amp to the Ongaku from Kondo san.

Although I think that Romy has voiced some fair criticisms (bearing in mind that he has not heard these speakers and his given full bloom self expression(!!), I am sure that he would moderate his opinions if he were to hear them).   Mind you, Be would be the first to criticise these alloy + bronze horns for listening to the music which Romy seems to prefer!!

I am not going to go further into this matter of the 'Brazilian-Horns" ..... other than to say that the bass drivers were original Western Electrics 15" units, again much modified.
09-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 11790
Reply to: 11789
I think you are misting the other side of the picture.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 DERRICK wrote:
  Although I think that Romy has voiced some fair criticisms (bearing in mind that he has not heard these speakers, I am sure that he would moderate his opinions if he were to hear them. 

Derrick, you might be wrong about it. You are new at my, site let me I explain to you how it "works".

It is not a conversation that I might be impressed or disgusted if I heard these speakers. From something that you have said I presume that I will not like them but publicizing my reaction and my reasons is not what is important. The important part, as I can see it, is to use the experiences of others as an educational method. At this site you will see a lot of commentaries about different steps different horn people took. Do not pay attention to the concussion if you do not like them – pay attention to the reasons and rational - they are always presented. Yes, they are speculations and attempt to assess the things – it shell be understood as such.  I can assure you that if I hear many of the solutions that I criticize then my negativism would be MUCH harsher – I am taking for my past experiences ….

Now about your comment that I might moderate my opinions if I heard any given speaker. I think you have a bit shallow few of the dilemma. The ONLY reasons I might be open in my criticism is because I did not heard the loudspeakers.  Look at the reality how people can get familiar with the sound of speakers. It might be at public arena (show, public demo rooms) or during private visits.  If you paid attention I never (unless the people are dead) make public comments about private visits of audio people or about the private accommodations the some dealers made to me. In fact some dealers made some accommodations for me ONLY with attached condition that I will not pass public comments bout what they demonstrated to me. As far as the private audio visits – the audio people are VERY insecure and have completely fucked up perception of constrictive criticism. So, in most cases if I did hear let say an acoustic system then it very much closes the door for me for expressing my analyses about the performances of the given acoustic system.

So, if to look at subject a bit wider then I hope you will understand now that  the fact the I never heard a given speaker is not necessary a problem. If you heard the drivers and have a grip how the different topologies work then you can pass a relatively accurate predictions but ONLY if you never heard it. If you did heard it and have evidences that Sound was horrible then … you can’t express your opinion as it would violate the “audio friendship”. It is not my rule; it is how the audio people live, unfortunately…

So, think again when you “accuse” me that I did not near the things… I think the criticism, as I use it, is not the criticisms but rather exchange of reasons and rational about horns design.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Problems with horns: mid-range horns...  First or second order for 1" driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  92115  07-21-2004
  »  New  Barn Conversion - James' Project..  The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     28  325788  02-04-2007
  »  New  German Odeon horns...  How would I play with Odeons…the murky water....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     13  142471  04-01-2007
  »  New  Looking at the pictures of playback installations...  Come on, teasers!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  32907  07-17-2007
  »  New  Greek Anima Loudspeakers..  I wish the TuneAudio stay with whatever subs they do....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     32  197893  11-03-2009
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