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   Home » Playback Listening » Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness) (48 posts, 3 pages)
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  »  New  Be careful: Imaging vs. Compression..  Compression vs. imaging...  Playback Listening  Forum     23  219486  10-24-2005
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  »  New  The Evolution (or Anti-Evolution) of FM Broadcast..  I know these people...  Off Air Audio Forum     3  42035  06-22-2008
  »  New  How idiots destroy sound...  Playing with knobs...  Audio Discussions  Forum     9  62837  10-12-2008
  »  New  DeCompressor - Puncher Processor for WaveLab..  Talking about the free cheese …...  Didital Things  Forum     1  29965  10-04-2009
  »  New  Why people still sell compressed music online?..  Another example of barbaric idiots who run the show!...  Didital Things  Forum     2  27686  09-26-2010
04-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 10291
Reply to: 10290
The the right amount and the properly applied type.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Andy,
 
my mind does not operate by the categories you employ, I rather think about nature of Sound not about harmonic/non-harmonic distortions. The whole subject about the distortion is intricate, not to mention that it is not know if we in fact are able to recognize and adequately react to distortions. What I am saying that your explanation might explains something but nothing that I have practical or sensual experience with. The feeding system of sinewave tones and observation of introduced of harmonic or non-harmonic tone doe not proved to me anything about compression.  First, are you sure that the harmonic or non-harmonic problems come from compression itself but not from a wrong ways to inflict compression? You saddest to take my favorite digital compressor and set it up for some 'reasonable' amount of compression. Are you sure that in this case the sound will be ruined by compression but not by the DSP processing or by somthing else? Second, if you subtract the source from output during your “feeding system” experiment and hear juts distortions without the souses then what will you hear? I know what you will be hearing but the question is what would you be hearing that would allow you to make a cultural judgment about Sound? The answer is nothing. Therefore I do not tend to think about sound as compellation of original sound and distortion but I rather look at the whole sound, and I really know what to look for. Therefore I think that the proof in the pudding and what I observe is that a right amount and properly applied compression do not hurt sound, and in some cases very much improves it perception. Now, what would be the “right amount” and the “properly applied type” I have no idea.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Andy Simpson
Posts 42
Joined on 10-21-2007

Post #: 42
Post ID: 10298
Reply to: 10291
Right amount of wrong notes?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Andy,
 
my mind does not operate by the categories you employ, I rather think about nature of Sound not about harmonic/non-harmonic distortions. The whole subject about the distortion is intricate, not to mention that it is not know if we in fact are able to recognize and adequately react to distortions. What I am saying that your explanation might explains something but nothing that I have practical or sensual experience with. The feeding system of sinewave tones and observation of introduced of harmonic or non-harmonic tone doe not proved to me anything about compression.  First, are you sure that the harmonic or non-harmonic problems come from compression itself but not from a wrong ways to inflict compression? You saddest to take my favorite digital compressor and set it up for some 'reasonable' amount of compression. Are you sure that in this case the sound will be ruined by compression but not by the DSP processing or by somthing else? Second, if you subtract the source from output during your “feeding system” experiment and hear juts distortions without the souses then what will you hear? I know what you will be hearing but the question is what would you be hearing that would allow you to make a cultural judgment about Sound? The answer is nothing. Therefore I do not tend to think about sound as compellation of original sound and distortion but I rather look at the whole sound, and I really know what to look for. Therefore I think that the proof in the pudding and what I observe is that a right amount and properly applied compression do not hurt sound, and in some cases very much improves it perception. Now, what would be the “right amount” and the “properly applied type” I have no idea.

The caT


Of course the perception is the most interesting part and informs us why it can be dangerous to 'trust' our perception.

Generally, I hear most forms of compression simply as the sound of dynamic 'restriction' or 'stress', but there is an underlying 'dirty' 'unpure' 'unmusical' aspect, which becomes very obvious in the comparison with a real source.

If the musicians are playing a 3 part chord of C major, is there any right amount of dischordant notes for the microphone/speaker/compressor to add? Sharp, flat, off-key tones?

Perhaps, we could say that where the amplitude compression provides a subjective 'improvement' and the distortion products remain below the threshold of audibility or masking, a 'useful' compromise is reached - perhaps a reason for prefering a high noise-floor in a compressed recording.

If compression is used to make up for inadequate gain in playback it could also be argued to be 'useful' but it is a slippery slope to compromise for the worst case.

You might prefer compression for reasons of insufficient system gain, system/acoustic noise-floor or even subjective musical reasons (the musicians played with too much dynamics)....

How do your experiences differ with (sealed) headphones differ from that of the loudspeaker?

Andy
05-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 10593
Reply to: 10298
High-res : Second priority
fiogf49gjkf0d

As things stand today, I believe that the biggest gain in quality is not to be had via the pursuit of higher resolution formats.

A friend of mine who works for a large media distribution business (like Amazon) recently gave me a bunch of sample CDs that were left over from previous evaluations in their listening room. Record labels regularly send these samples out to large retail operations hoping to secure an order. Many of the CDs are bare, with no cover art, and have only a simple hand written title for purposes of ID. Most have a word saying something to the effect that the material is "not for resale". Listening to these recordings revealed in all cases a total absence of dynamic compression; they actually sound really good.

This is somewhat surprising, as I would have thought all mastering to have been done before issuing even the pre-sale samples, but apparently not, or apparently there are two versions (one compressed and one not). In any case, I interpret this finding as an admission on the part of the labels that the effects of dynamic compression are in fact detrimental, and that people running the labels are completely aware of the damage it does.

Though the material on newer (purchased) CDs seems to have less dynamic compression than was the case with CDs from about 3 years ago, it is still present and widely used, and I fully expect that the commercially available versions of these samples will receive the compression treatment.

This I just do not understand... The original motivation (mastering a recording to sound louder than offerings from competing labels when broadcast over the radio) is no longer valid; as a result of this practice (dynamic compression to increase perceived loudness), broadcast signals are now processed before diffusion such that perceived loudness is held at a constant level. Unless I am missing something, there is no longer any reason to continue the practice of dynamic compression; I just don't get it !

The only possible motivation I can imagine is in the context of an individual listening to music files in a noisy environment (an MP3 player used in the subway for example); such a user might "benefit" from dynamically compressed files where the quiet passages are boosted. So is that it? Is this what's dragging down the quality for all users? There has got to be a better way!

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
05-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 44
Post ID: 10597
Reply to: 10593
On compression
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi jd*,


Unfortunately the minorities always get screwed and this case is not different.
Most people out there listen to music as a background or head banging noise, there's no way around that, and wide dynamic range is not compatible with this.
It would be so easy to have a custom circuit (like loudness) in every single audio gadget that would compress the music for this purpose... It could even be on as default and everyone would be happy.


Cheers,
Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
05-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 45
Post ID: 10601
Reply to: 10593
The LP Analogy
fiogf49gjkf0d
Jessie, that is hilarious!  For many years I felt so cagey to know to look out for the "white label" and/or "demo" LPs that various record "Labels" sent out to radio stations/DJs, hoping for air time.  In most cases they were "ringers", better in every way than the stuff that the same labels released for public consumption.

La plus ca change...

Best regards,
Paul S
01-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 12625
Reply to: 5269
NPR: The Loudness Wars: Why Music Sounds Worse
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122114058&sc=emaf

The NPR program is fine. The 80 comments after are fine, still THEY DI IT!!! Shall it be prosecutable?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-06-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 12628
Reply to: 12625
Cause for optimism ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
This emission is significant not because it offers new information, but because it aired on NPR, and is as such evidence that the issue is now considered worthy of public attention.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
01-05-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
wjam


The French Alps
Posts 7
Joined on 01-04-2011

Post #: 48
Post ID: 15382
Reply to: 12628
Mr eno has lost his hearing
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was so looking forward to David Byrne's LP,  Everything that Happens will Happen Today... on vinyl too.. brilliant... I like David Byrne.. but horror of horrors it's all recorded at exactly the same level.  There is close to zero dynamic I think.  I have now quite a few examples of this effect

Mr Brian Eno produced it and seems very proud of the result.

I'd very much like to invite Mr Eno to hear his own "Another Green World"  and then play the David Byrne LP and ask him whether he can hear any difference in recording quality.  Whether or not you like either artists music you'd have to be totally deaf not to notice this, and sadly the David Byrne LP is close to un-listenable.  Luckily I got to see him live in a good sounding venue... but that's hard to repeat in my living room.

Anyway, the point is.. How did Mr Eno and Mr Byrne miss this?  I mean 1 might have gone deaf, but both at the same time?

ciao
WJAM
Page 3 of 3 (48 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Be careful: Imaging vs. Compression..  Compression vs. imaging...  Playback Listening  Forum     23  219486  10-24-2005
  »  New  A tribune to Transient Evenness or …..  A tribune to Transient Evenness or …...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  17461  08-20-2006
  »  New  How to USE “Resonating Oops” in loudspeakers..  Injection?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     184  1470091  02-28-2007
  »  New  Contributing factors in compressed sound..  Contributing factors of compressed sound....  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  45495  08-23-2007
  »  New  An objective tool to trace gap better horn rate and cro..  An objective tool to trace gap better horn rate and cro...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  16039  10-05-2007
  »  New  The nature of "soundstage" in audio...  My goals beyond...  Playback Listening  Forum     22  164329  02-03-2008
  »  New  The Evolution (or Anti-Evolution) of FM Broadcast..  I know these people...  Off Air Audio Forum     3  42035  06-22-2008
  »  New  How idiots destroy sound...  Playing with knobs...  Audio Discussions  Forum     9  62837  10-12-2008
  »  New  DeCompressor - Puncher Processor for WaveLab..  Talking about the free cheese …...  Didital Things  Forum     1  29965  10-04-2009
  »  New  Why people still sell compressed music online?..  Another example of barbaric idiots who run the show!...  Didital Things  Forum     2  27686  09-26-2010
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