| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Analog Playback» Copper Mat on a Micro Seiki Gun Metal Platter (113 posts, 6 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 3 of 6 (113 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  392238  01-30-2006
  »  New  Micro RX 5000..  Do not worry....  Analog Playback Forum     8  38108  11-09-2008
  »  New  Micro RX5000: is that bearing spins normally?..  How many turns do the good bearing......  Analog Playback Forum     7  16993  02-03-2014
  »  New  Fetish of Micro's?..  HS-80...  Analog Playback Forum     112  99665  10-29-2017
08-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 41
Post ID: 23366
Reply to: 23365
316L magnetism and platter drawing
Measet,
As you may know, 316L is a low-carbon austenitic stainless steel which has superior corrosion as well as machining and welding properties. It is generally non-magnetic in the raw state, but cold working can convert tiny amounts of its austenite to martensite, which is slightly magnetic.
I checked my platter again today with a small but very powerful neodymium magnet. It does barely attract to the platter, but far, far less than to regular steel. I can no longer feel any pull at all with the copper CU-180 mat on top of the platter, separating the magnet from the platter. I do not worry about it.
Ironically (and that's a pun as you will see), this magnet pulls stronger to the black speckled granite slabs that my RX-5000 sit on. Yep, there must be iron flakes inside the granite, and these attract the magnet more than a 50-pound chunk of 316L!
I will try try to attach a drawing of my platter design. The drawing assumes you know or can measure the other dimensions of the original platter. The angled underside surface reduces the bell-like ringing mode of the original design, as well as increasing mass.



______________
Brian
08-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 42
Post ID: 23367
Reply to: 23366
No PDFs allowed
Ok, so Romy doesn't allow posting a PDF file. Let me try to make a JPG out of it...


______________
Brian
08-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017

Post #: 43
Post ID: 23368
Reply to: 23367
Stainless steel platter for Micro RX-5000
Hi Brian,

Thanks for useful infos.
Recently I had possibility to enter in to supplier warehouse to check how the magnet react on different ss materials.
I found some types which attracted the magnet still less than 316L. I'm not an expert in metallurgy, also I do not know what is the main preference of ss material for a good turntable platter. What do you think is it worth to choose other material or 316L is good enough.
I see you use the heavy weight ss platter from years, could you confirm that the bearing performing well and resist to higher mass?

Thanks a lot!
08-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 44
Post ID: 23369
Reply to: 23368
Magnetic attraction
While my background is in engineering, I am not a metallurgist either. But I do know that 316L is considered an non-magnetic material (see https://greenwoodmagnetics.com/resource/what-is-the-difference-between-304-and-316-stainless-steel/). But even these non-magnetic grades can be made very slightly magnetic by cold working: rolling, peening, and even machining. You could anneal the work after machining, but then you'd get surface discoloration, and possibly warping as stresses are relieved. You could anneal the blank material first, and then you'd only have small work hardening from the surface machining. There is no telling what working processes your samples in the warehouse were exposed to.
TechDas, Micro Seiki's successor, uses 316L in the platters of its mighty Air Force tables. I am almost certain that 316L was used in Micro Seiki's flagship, the mighty SX-8000 II (designed by the same guy).
Another advantage of 316L is extreme resistance to corrosion. My platter looks as nice as the day Mirko machined it for me, and my heirs will inherit a shiny platter years from now! The discoloration of the original bronze platter was annoying, requiring regular maintenance, especially here in South Florida (even in constant A/C).

Let me reiterate that my magnetic attraction test with a small neodymium magnet, while not scientific, reveals only a very tiny attraction to the platter, maybe half of what even the black granite base pulls (!), and that is very weak too. That same magnet snaps with great fury onto regular steel, with a force that is probably many hundred times more. In fact it is hard to remove it once stuck to regular steel. I will attach a table of the magnetic susceptibilities of materials. Compare austenitic stainless with regular iron. Thousands of times less magnetic, even after hard working.
Bottom line, I would not worry about it. With the CU-180 mat in place, it's completely a non-issue.
As to the bearing's ability to support the additional weight, it was a concern of mine too. Mirko, who knows these tables inside and out, and who has built clones, reassured me that the bearing was so overbuilt that it would not be a problem. I certainly have experienced no problems. Remember that Micro Seiki sold several heavy accessories intended to be use on their platters, such as the ST-20 stabilizer weight, the CU-500 heavy copper mat and the peripheral weight ring. Those could add up the total weight.
As with the bronze platter, one must be very careful when slowly lowering the platter down onto the bearing shaft. The ceramic ball and thrust plate inside are very hard, but also brittle.




______________
Brian
08-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017

Post #: 45
Post ID: 23370
Reply to: 23369
Micro SX-8000 feet
Thanks for detailed answer. I'll go for 316L. So I would not worry about magnet issue, especially because also I use CU-180 or Audio Technica AT-666EX mat (air suction type).

As my taste is closer to steel I have plan to make also the 316L version of pillars, to replicate the bigger SX-8000 feet is an option as well.
I just saw pictures and I modelled in 3d (attached) but I do not know the exact measurement of the bottom part.
Would be great if somebody can share the real dimensions of it.

Thanks a lot!
08-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 46
Post ID: 23371
Reply to: 23370
Big feet
I am not sure that there would be an audible advantage to the larger feet, but they sure do look pretty nice!

I know that Mirko makes such feet, as well as feet for the motor unit. Unless you love machining, it might be easier to buy from him. I was worried that my new stainless platter from him would exhibit a little runout or wobbling due to the challenges of machining the conical spindle hole and making everything else precisely concentric and symmetrical. I needn't have worried; the platter spins perfectly. His work is impeccable and he knows these tables like no one else. By the way, I have zero business affiliation with him.


______________
Brian
08-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017

Post #: 47
Post ID: 23372
Reply to: 23371
Production of ss platter
Yes, also I'm worry about the fully precise production of platter. The sophisticated conical spindle hole gives reason for serious concern. Probably I will take out the spindle from bearing to obtain the right data for maximum fitting.
The raw material is a small fortune, there is no space for experimenting, for this work I have to find the master of masters.

Would be an option to agree with Mirko, but as I'm living in Budapest the hugh shipping cost and potentialy customs duties will increase the sum to the sky.
BTW how can I contact Mirko? Thanks a lot!
08-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 48
Post ID: 23373
Reply to: 23372
Shipping
Shipping to Budapest should not be very expensive compared to the item itself. I know that Mirko Djordjevic has shipped overseas many times, so I expect he could tell you about customs costs. He has publicly shared his email in the past, so I will post it here, in minor disguise:

cary300b AT hotmail DOT com

Let us know what you do.




______________
Brian
09-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017

Post #: 49
Post ID: 23386
Reply to: 23373
Micro HS-80 flywheel
I found locally a professional mechanist, also I discovered a reliable supplier who can deliver me at relative low-cost the L316 raw material, so I'll start the steel platter project soon.

I just read some post in this thread regarding HS-80 flywheel and I would like to share my experience about it.
I got an original one from Japan in fantastic, mint condition but I'm totally disapointed regarding its performance.
Prectically is impossible to match it to my RX-5000 system.
Without the flywheel the speed of turntable is dead precise but the system breaks when I connect the HS-80.
I have to mention that the flywheel alone running smootly and stops after long time.
At start I help both platter by hands to speed them up but takes minutes to reach a certain speed level which finaly is unstable and uneven.
I followed many intructions regarding setup like both string (I have Micro one) must be equal lenght.
Also I tried the option what was advised here, that flywheel must be at the same distance as the motor and for adjustments has move the motor NOT the flywheel.
I played also with tension, the situation is better when treads are very-very tight but still far from ideal.

Now I have doubt that this gear was developed with intention to support the RX-5000.

Please let me know if you have any idea how can I force my HS-80 to perform well.

Thanks a lot!
09-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 50
Post ID: 23387
Reply to: 23386
You are the second person to complain about the HS-80
An audiophile who has the user name "Kipdent" on other forums told me privately that he didn't think that he could hear any difference with the HS-80 using his RX-5000. He did not mention to me any problems getting it to function, however. While it does almost double the rotational inertia of the system (as I recall) it would introduce some additional machine noise. We might be at the point of diminishing returns with the high inertia of the RX-5000, especially if you add additional mass with a new platter.


______________
Brian
09-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Retrofunk
Dallas Via London
Posts 6
Joined on 01-23-2016

Post #: 51
Post ID: 23388
Reply to: 23387
HS -80 Flywheel
Wellington, I posted a few years ago regarding the HS-80 Flywheel, I concur it is an absolute pain in the ass to set it up correctly. I tried every suggestion on this web, from Mirko and others. In the end the solution was purchasing the MS String, I had tried many different types ....but finding the actual MS String ...no issues since. My approach is to keep the length on the controller and the flywheel the same and to move the controller not not flywheel to get the correct speed and maintain it. Since my previous post I had Mirko clone the RY5000 controller and shoehorn into the box a Phoenix Engineering RoadRunner Tach and the PSU. I believe it is -todate- the only one he has built ...and I must say I absolutely love it. I get and maintain 33.333. Having said that I concur with 'Kipdent', I cannot hear a sonic difference utilizing the HS80 vs not, but it certainly looks cool ! LOL. I have attached a pic ....




Micro Seiki RX5000 handmade clone (double stacked), Micro Seiki Flywheel, Fidelity Research FR 64S, SME3009 S3, DynAudio C1, Merrill Audio Thor MonoBlocks, VAC Signature MKII, Keith Monk RCM, Denon Au 320 SUT, Technics SL1200 (KABUSA) Marantz 2330b
09-14-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 52
Post ID: 23389
Reply to: 23388
5000 variations
Very nice set up. And yes, the HS-80 has a coolness factor, whether it helps the sound or not. I did a double-take when I saw your motor with all those green digits. Then I read what you did.

My RY-5500 came with an external 120 V to 100 V step-down power transfomer. I took the opportunity to add internal voltage regulation into the RY-5500 chassis that simultaneously drops the voltage without needing that external transfomer, makes the motor completely immune to line voltage variations and drastically lowers the noise of the voltage applied to the motor. Not as elaborate as your tach feedback loop but it seems to do the trick.
The 5000 is a great platform.


______________
Brian
09-15-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 23390
Reply to: 23386
Ah, the subject of the HS -80 Flywheel!
Back when I still had an interests to pock the Morons at Audiogon thread in there where the owners of HS -80 Flywheel told about the benefit of it and I challenged then:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/micro-sx-8000-ii-or-sz-1 
 
I experimented a lot with RX5000 and RX8000 and I even had the platter of 8000 to use as Flywheel for driving 5000. You can have better or worse stability in terms of numbers and moment inertia but I absolutely insist that all of it has no practical audible impact. I presented that notion to the Audiogon idiots but they declared me a terrorist or something like this….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-15-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 54
Post ID: 23391
Reply to: 23390
Correction
I mentioned above that a user named "kipdent" thought that he heard no difference using the HS-80 on his 5000. Let me correct my aging memory with what he actually wrote in an email to me: "It [the HS-80] is very cool, but I don't think it's worth the money they are getting now. It does make a difference in my opinion, but it is quite incremental." Just to correct the record (sorry for that pun).
In any case, I don't have an HS-80 in my audio bucket list.


______________
Brian
09-15-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017

Post #: 55
Post ID: 23392
Reply to: 23390
Micro HS-80 flywheel
No question the system with HS-80 looks cool but there is something wrong.
Isn't clear why a honoured Japenese company placed to the market a gear which can't be setup just on sophisticated, mysterious way.
BTW I use also original MS string but till now I had no luck to achieve good result neither with the setup version of Retrofunk.
I have reached the best result when I mounted the SF-1 belt on RX-5000 but still much time has past till I got the right speed.

I'm afraid that originally it was developed to support just the air bearing turntables like 8000 and lately 1500 series.
I didn't find any authentic evidence that HS-80 is fitting to RX-5000.
Exist one flayer where HS-80 has advertised as a piece of the Full Chois 1500 Series.


@ Retrofunk, I'm curious how fast your system get the right speed.
@ Wellington, could you tell me more about the installed internal voltage regulator, do you have the circuit diagram of it?
@ Romy I beleive in your experience but as I own this rare and expensive unit what a pitty that I cannot do at least one audio checking.
09-16-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wellington


South Florida
Posts 37
Joined on 10-03-2011

Post #: 56
Post ID: 23394
Reply to: 23392
Schematic
Measet, I will try to find a photo and the schematic as you requested, but it may be a while before I can locate them. Plus, we are still digging out from Hurricane Irma down here. As I recall, I beefed up the raw D.C. supply and then used an LM317 regulator circuit. I attached the TO-220 regulator package using an existing hole inside the RY-5500 chassis in a manner that took advantage of the heavy chassis as a heat sink. The other parts were shoe-horned tightly inside. The original D.C. supply that ran off 100 V AC was pretty wobbly. I monitored its voltage on an oscilloscope as I applied varying loads to the platter with my hand and I observed pretty large amounts of ripple. Apparently it was just adequate to the task. My new beefier raw supply runs directly off 120 V AC now and it is then regulated down to the same original D.C. voltage, but with almost no ripple and having very high line rejection. My mods worked without any issues whatsoever. Your line voltage is probably 230 V AC in Europe, so you may still need a step-down transfomer unless your '5000 is configured for that voltage. How is your RY-5500 rated on its label?
Which brings me to my next point. Your problems trying to use the HS-80 may indicate a weak or failed power supply inside your RY-5500. There are numerous electrolytic capacitors inside the RY-5500 that are now 30+ years old. I replaced every single electrolytic cap in my two Micro Seiki tables (5000 and 1500). I also have two superb Kyocera PL-910 tables which were made by Micro Seiki, and I replaced the supply caps in those as well. You might try replacing your electrolytic caps before doing anything else. See if that doesn't make your motor more stable. Even if it doesn't, the new caps are warranted preventatively and should be replaced anyway before modifying the supply. You don't need audio caps here. Just buy high quality caps from Panasonic or Nichicon. I try to always find caps with a 105 Celsius rating. The temperature never gets high in the RY-5500, but I believe the 105-Celsius-rated caps to be slightly more reliable, and they usually cost little more.


______________
Brian
09-16-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017

Post #: 57
Post ID: 23395
Reply to: 23394
Regulator
Wellington, thanks for detailed info.
Currently I have two RX-5000 tt (also Michell Orb and modded Thechnics SL-1200).
I bougth the two Micro's from Japan (local friend helped me on) so the motors are labeled with 100 VAC.
One of them is supplied by step-down transformer and I didn't touch it the other one is modded a bit, the transformer was re-wounded professionally to 230V, I replaced all electrolytic caps with Elna audio grade, the two trimmers as well, I removed the rust and cleaned the electromotor and I lubricated very slightly the motor shaft.
Both motors are stable and keep the speed well. Generally I measure with iRPM but I can use also 1kHz test LP/osciloscope.
By profession I'm not electrician but I have a bit skill and experience on this area.
I just got inspiration from you to replace the pure DC regulator to a beefy one. So please send me the data if you can find around.

Sometime ago also I was interested in Kyocera and 1500 with air bearing but finally I turned on other way.
Can you compare them to RX-5000?

Thanks a lot and take care!
09-16-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Retrofunk
Dallas Via London
Posts 6
Joined on 01-23-2016

Post #: 58
Post ID: 23396
Reply to: 23392
HS-80
With regard to 'How fast to get to correct speed' These are my steps:
- Hand spin the flywheel first
- Hand rotate the platter until the Tach reads around 33rpm
- Start the motor 
- Speed will be within 2-3% straight away 
- Due to the PSU altering the voltage, until the tach feedbacks a constant 33.3XX I would estimate it is around 2-3 mins ...it will then be a constant 33.3xx, then a few more minutes for 33.33x, i don't always achieve a constant 33.333 . However, without the flywheel a constant 33.333 is maintained. I only use this deck for 33.3 rpm records, I have a KABUSA Technics 1200 for 45 rpm.

Before i had the tach and PSU shoe-horned into the controller I just used the tach ...at least that way I could monitor the speed of the platter. Without a tach, trying to set the flywheel up and the controller is a nightmare ...or it was in my case anyway.Hope this helps.


Micro Seiki RX5000 handmade clone (double stacked), Micro Seiki Flywheel, Fidelity Research FR 64S, SME3009 S3, DynAudio C1, Merrill Audio Thor MonoBlocks, VAC Signature MKII, Keith Monk RCM, Denon Au 320 SUT, Technics SL1200 (KABUSA) Marantz 2330b
09-17-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
measet
Posts 15
Joined on 08-15-2017

Post #: 59
Post ID: 23397
Reply to: 23396
It does not make sense!
Retrofunk, thanks for the input.
So I have to accept that the game with HS-80 is a fiddling job.
After spending hours with different setups I achieved the optimal result:
- both string are same lenght and quite tight.
- it needs aprox. 4-5 minutes to the system reach the stable and right speed.
I did some auditions but tell the true I didn't recognize any difference.
Maybe I was just stressed and tired but in my oppinion the pain in the ass is too much.

To wait minutes before play a record...it does not make sense.
10-10-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jam
Auburn
Posts 18
Joined on 10-10-2017

Post #: 60
Post ID: 24474
Reply to: 23397
RX-5000
Hi Wellington and fellow Micro-Seiki fans,
I will have to agree with your findings about the CU-180 as well. I have tried a stainless steel mat with similar results.I own two RX-5000's and cant't stress enough the rebuilding of the power supply with new capacitors and lubrication of the motor bearing. I am working on a new power supply to replace the internal supply. There are gains to be had here with a good regulator and better transformer.
I tried the HS-80 and with heavier platters I can say that it seems to be a phenomenal waste of time. 
Jam
Page 3 of 6 (113 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  392238  01-30-2006
  »  New  Micro RX 5000..  Do not worry....  Analog Playback Forum     8  38108  11-09-2008
  »  New  Micro RX5000: is that bearing spins normally?..  How many turns do the good bearing......  Analog Playback Forum     7  16993  02-03-2014
  »  New  Fetish of Micro's?..  HS-80...  Analog Playback Forum     112  99665  10-29-2017
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts