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  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Viva Audio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     190  1278118  12-06-2006
  »  New  The most interesting horn ideas to me so far..  Looking for best horn values...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  36743  04-30-2007
  »  New  Problems with horns: tweeters...  Re: HF “wildness”...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     25  141193  07-11-2004
  »  New  Srajan Ebaen and Juicy-Cooking Audio...  Srajan shall stay out of the restroom....  Audio News Forum     8  59632  08-07-2007
  »  New  Vitavox S2 coupling..  Adaptor thickness etc....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  56250  12-20-2008
  »  New  Vitavox S2 driver made in china..  What does it do right?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     36  184933  12-20-2006
  »  New  Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...  A typical convention......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     123  942268  07-16-2004
  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  619671  10-19-2006
  »  New  Engaging the David Haigner’s ideas..  The degree of disagreement correction...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     7  60745  08-30-2009
  »  New  Vox Olympian secrets unveiled..  Yes :)...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  9420  05-24-2017
  »  New  How difficult is it to achieve Vox Olympian sound..  Another soil might be ruined…...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  8233  01-03-2018
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 14536
Reply to: 14535
It is not about the person but about the idiotization of audio
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hifiapart, I did not accuse you personally in collecting, and I appreciate your retort about me unfortunately exhibiting collecting inclinations. However, the conversation is not about me, you or about Srajan personally. I am sure he is an OK guy and you or me would be gladly sitting with him in a bar, drink vodka and teas women. The point is not who Srajan is but what he is and what he represents. Unfortunately he represents audio nothingness, sort of audio-jellyfish that drifts with a flow of comfortable numbness, with a current of convenient status quo, without a realization if that current was the Gulfstream or it was a gravity flow in catacomb’s sewerage. I do not want to sharp my pencil against Srajan, as he is just a little stinky gear on a large machinery of general idiotization of audio. He does not understand his place and his role and his stand poison his own outlook as much as it poisons the horizons of thee people who read his crap…

I personally meeting people who do audio always divide them mentally on two categories – people who do audio accidentally and people who practice audio consciousnessly. With all pornographic pomposity that 6 moon brew around itself I do consider Srajan as very accidental audio person. He has no reasons to do audio and no motivations to practice audio journalism. If the circumstance changes Srajan will be publishing a magazine about breading of rabbits. I do not like it and I do not like that each Srajan article is saturated with critical mass of nothingness. You see, there is nothing wrong to be a Fox News and falsify data. Even this indicates motivation in one or another direction. It is much more unpleasant if a news anchor reads for you a news about let say 9/11 event or landing on moon  and has no idea what he is reading and what does it mean. 

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 14730
Reply to: 11332
The Living Voice Vox Olympian listening coments.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The 6moons article about actual listening of the Vox Olympian:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/livingvoice6/1.html

I did not read it yet and look forward to do it.

Th Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 14737
Reply to: 14730
Mumbo jumbo
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,Thanks for posting the review, I was looking forward to it as well.  Unfortunately I would be hard pressed to find a better example of worthless drivel in audio reviewing, why does he even bother. The pictures are nice though, his listening room looks idealic though maybe a bit square.R Weissman
10-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 44
Post ID: 14738
Reply to: 14737
1500 additional man hours for premium finishing
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is an interesting project that I may make an effort to hear. However, the concept of spending so much time and effort on finish is troublesome. A previous 6moons article also mentioned the great efforts and time relating to the finish. Does that imply that the designer believes the Olympian sound is largely sorted and would not have benefited from several thousands of hours in time and effort in R&D? I suppose the designer will answer that question indirectly when he releases the improved version of the Olympian.
10-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 14740
Reply to: 14738
I think there are more prosaic reasons are in play.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 scooter wrote:
This is an interesting project that I may make an effort to hear. However, the concept of spending so much time and effort on finish is troublesome. A previous 6moons article also mentioned the great efforts and time relating to the finish. Does that imply that the designer believes the Olympian sound is largely sorted and would not have benefited from several thousands of hours in time and effort in R&D? I suppose the designer will answer that question indirectly when he releases the improved version of the Olympian.

Scooter, I do not think you are corrects. You sucked too much BS that media sprayed around Olympian. Living Voice is relatively established company and they produced small speakers for years. They ended toy with an idea to make expensive flagman speaker for years and of course the marketing pimps converted the time before Olympian relies into incredible 29 years-long efforts. The only thing is missing from the story is the tail that the Living Voice guy tock the idea of Olympian from the hands of dying monk from Atlántida. Sure, no one question that it took for Living Voice long time to perfect Olympian. Like for any of us, like for me tool 9 years to perfect Macondo. That is fine. You need to understand that there are much more prosaic things behind all of it. People who undertake a project with targeted $300K loudspeaker do not start it if they do not have a few of them pre-sold. So, the things uselessly work very simple-. They butter up 3-4 perspective customers and develop them to get Olympian. Then investment is made, parts are bought and a party of Olympian made.  One of then insulated in somebody room, a traveling cheerleader is invite and - here we go – the new product has sailed.

I would not guess how Olympian sound and I would like to hear them.  I however with a high degree can predict that I might not like them. With all their advances Olympian is not a system of an off the shelf loudspeaker. Generally a single SET with single ready-to-go loudspeaker deliver a bit limited result. Still it would be interesting to hear what Living Voice have done as much as I would be interested to show Living Voice what I have done with the same drivers. Surely, the use Vitavox drivers make me to be fascinated…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 46
Post ID: 19330
Reply to: 14536
Vox Olympian at Munich High End Show 2013
fiogf49gjkf0d
Some Pics from their Demo
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3.1.jpg


5.jpg


6.jpg


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8.jpg



Kind Regards
Stitch
05-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #: 47
Post ID: 19331
Reply to: 19330
Vox Olympian
fiogf49gjkf0d
The veneering is top quality, did you hear them Stitch?Keith.
05-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 19333
Reply to: 19331
Did they play anything?
fiogf49gjkf0d
They for sure positioned the speaker very appropriate in the room. How did it sound and what music they play would be inverting to know. As I understand they have Condo electronics and 16 bit playback. Ballsy in today's 24 bit times…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-12-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 19335
Reply to: 19333
Music
fiogf49gjkf0d

They were playing some Schubert Lieder, Tchaikovsky and a very challenging George Crumb piece while I was in there. Was interested to see a gunmetal compression chamber on the rear of his new S2's.

05-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 50
Post ID: 19345
Reply to: 19331
A female Singer with a Guitar ...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Purite Audio wrote:
The veneering is top quality, did you hear them Stitch?Keith.

Yes, the quality of making is top but to be fair to other manufacturers, they do a good job also. I think, the finish is more important than the sound quality for a lot of people.

I listened to them for a longer time, but unfortunately I can't give a real comment about their abilities. Software was from CD and it was typical Show music, a female Singer with a Guitar/Piano or similar, or that usual bing-bang-boom from digital mixing desks. So, it was a kind of sound which was in a league of 30 other demos I heard.

I don't blame the poor guys (the Demo guys) who have to listen to that pain all day long, maybe a lot of audiophiles enjoy exactly that kind of music at home, I don't know. Rating a component in forums is always based on "I didn't like it" or " I loved it" or when you read about the best sound of show you will also find comments which are the opposite. I always be neutral, I am curious what the System will tell me and when I have some luck, the Demo Man has something I know and he plays it.

Just for example, I was in a room with a System for about 10k, complete. Maybe even less, Preamp for 3k, Phonostage for 1.5k etc. and the Demo Man had a lot of originals, Living Stereos, Sinatra a really wide spectrum of nice music. Everyone enjoyed it there, he got good comments, even from visitors who didn't like the equipment for whatever reasons (too ugly, too cheap ...), but he simply made a good demo.

Horn speakers are not so rare at that Show in Germany, there are a few designs, some made me escape after 2 minutes and some are interesting. But everything has a fan group :-) Don't know what is the reason for, but they exist.
A interesting company is Acapella from Germany. When you have the chance for a demo, try to visit.


Kind Regards
Stitch
05-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Purite Audio
Posts 20
Joined on 05-07-2012

Post #: 51
Post ID: 19346
Reply to: 19345
New
fiogf49gjkf0d
I heard the new or at least new to me Accapellas in the Marriott, ( the DeLuxe show which is a spin off) I thought they were pretty good, plasma tweeter,cone driver and mid horn and a passive bass which was sealed?I think they used to use active bass in their three ways?Keith.
05-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 19347
Reply to: 19345
Acapella from Germany
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
A interesting company is Acapella from Germany. When you have the chance for a demo, try to visit.

The Acapella from Germany is an interesting company but they have MF driver challenge that they did not resolve for year and years. They stress use of plasma tweeter which is very good tweeter (with some health limitations) but they never were able to find a good MF driver that will be able to work with plasma tweeter. As many times I heard them I always felt that Acapella’s MF and Acapella’s HF are two different species. Might be they need to look into different MF drive topologies, perhaps the electromagnet to make this MF to be slightly different.  I do not know if it would be good or beneficial but I do know that they need to have more uniformed MF and HF type of sounds. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 19356
Reply to: 19330
Vox Olympian in Munich
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, of cause this is according to the stupid Moon’s consciousness…. 

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/munich2013/1.html

I am in particularly thrilled with the author’s of the article mentioning the “64-bit tone colors”. How the hell the tone colors have to do with bit rate I have no idea. It is not to mention that 64-bit rate in playback is an indication of all sort of problem as it would require DSP bit redaction before D/A conversion.

The Cat



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 54
Post ID: 19475
Reply to: 14730
Vox Olympian Audition
fiogf49gjkf0d
Recently, I was fortunate enough to have an extended listening session with the Living Voice Vox Olympian outside of a show environment. Since said listening session took place upon a boat – moreover, a wooden-bodied boat – under what can only be said to be sub-ideal conditions (despite extensive room treatments, battery power supply etc, an old wooden yacht probably makes as suitable a listening room as does the interior of a giant lute) this renders what I am about to relate (to me) still more extraordinary.

Firstly, a quick context upon my own rather abortive journey through audio; fifteen years ago I sought to purchase a sound system that could accurately reproduce the volume, dynamics and sheer atmosphere that I frequently found at musical venues, be they concert hall, intimate club with soloist, and all points in between. I had been reliably assured, both by acquaintances and multifarious audio publications, that this was not only possible but commonplace, so I went into the enterprise with high expectations and a budget to match. A year, and numberless disappointing auditions later, I came to realize that what I sought was very much more of a Philosopher’s Stone than something to be lightly culled from a cabal of glossy magazine reviews and clueless store owners. Assuming that what I sought was unattainable, I instead settled for a cheap system that offered acceptable “Hi-Fi” sound and an occasional glimpse of the aether (Roksan Xerxes/ Artemiz/Windfield, Sutherland phono, Octave integrated, Marantz CD, Sansui FM and Harbeth speakers) and acclimatized myself to finding such a level of reproduction to be fulfilling. Over the years I have kept abreast of the latest and greatest things in audio, a simple matter since I have many friends who own “high end” systems – frequently changing them, as the pursuit seems to demand - and have on occasion returned to audio showrooms in order to assure myself that I was not merely depressed and/or cynical the first time around; it would seem that I was not. Aside from an exclusively Audio Tekne system with horn speakers that I heard in Japan (and which was absurdly costly, together with possessing certain limitations incommensurate with the price) nothing has fulfilled my original remit in any completely holistic fashion; what one gives in dynamic slam it takes away in unrealistic transient decay, etc etc ad nauseum.

Last week I heard the Vox Olympian. My experiments in audio have led me to believe that, whilst the application of incorrect topologies throughout the audio industry is commonplace, in speaker design it's practically the sine qua non of the thing. However, my experience with the aforementioned Audio Tekne system, together with the horns of Avantgarde, Cessaro, and certain aspects of Classic Audio Reproductions speakers have led me to believe that horns may well be the way forward, but this has always been tempered by the sense that the technology was being inadequately exploited, chiefly by designers with hidebound belief systems and/or mastabatory cults revolving around single driver/archaic cinema speakers from their childhoods. The Vox is the first speaker I have heard that seems to possess all of the intrinsic positives of the horn platform whilst overcoming its endemic negatives. You must forgive me, but despite possessing a doctorate in Letters, the Audiophile’s Argot almost entirely eludes me; it is, in any case, very much easier to apply such argot to what is wrong with a presentation rather than what is right. In the case of the Vox, once a certain amount of tinkering had been addressed (which consisted of rotating the upper two drivers within their threads, perhaps only be a millimeter or two, but the effect of which was so dramatic as to recall to mind the article on DPOLS that appears in this forum; prior to this the presentation had been, to my taste, a little saccharine and wooly, but this was to the liking of the owner) the level of detail, accuracy of transient resolution, dynamic thrust, plausible soundstaging et al, et al were beyond compare. For the first time in my experience, the sheer sensation of orchestral power was resolved in front of me, together with realistic richness of timbre, deep bass that was physically experienced just as in the concert hall; transient decay, even in the case of solo piano, was indistinguishable from the real, and human voices were beyond criticism. I could go on, but fear a lapse into the sort of verbiage that Messrs Valin, Harley et al have recourse to in order to flesh out that which is inherently skeletal when one has already ejaculated one’s best adjectives on a $120 pair of mini-monitors earlier in said issue.

As for myself, whilst I am pleased to have had the real potential of audio revealed to me – and to a certain extent, perhaps, the route by which it may be sought – I cannot justify such an expenditure in my own life. The accompanying system was costly too (the details escape me, but I do know that the components were mostly Kondo with a CEC TLOX transport, DCS dac and assorted exotic cables etc) yet whilst I am not myself in this marketplace, I have since found myself tinkering with the idea of a DIY speaker not dissimilar from the above, perhaps employing AK151, S2 and Ale HF drivers with custom superstructures, something that may be accomplished at a bare fraction of the price. 

de Charlus
06-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 19480
Reply to: 19475
Very interesting observation.
fiogf49gjkf0d
de Charlus,

thank you very much for the wonderful narrative.  For sure an exposure to a good audio installation and witnessing what it can do to sound able to redefine our believes in functional meaning of a playback. I think we all who mingling with audio in one way or other did have those experiences. Ironically those experiences not necessary come from great installations but if they were great installations then it for sure become a life lasting sensation.  Yep, sometimes it comes with price tag, this sucks but it is what it is….

I never heard the Vox Olympian and I very much look forward to do it. I got an emails from Definitive’s Kevin the he will be accommodate me during my treat to London in the end of this summer and I am very much look forward to hear them. I think it would be very interesting to talk with Kevin as well and to hear his views about audio reproduction.

There is another very interesting concept in your post.  The old school of thoughts when try to answer the question about difference between American audio sound and British audio sound suggests that American audio sound is characterized by flimsy walls that we have. Most American houses are built from feeble wood frames and panels and they have own signature. In architecturally civilized counties they built chicken sheds in the same way how we build houses in USA. However, you were on a boat, the wooden-bodied boat and it was very freaky experience. It very much might be sub-ideal conditions but it might be phenomenal condition. The boat rooms frequently have not flat surface but they curved and this is very interesting. Also, all wall vibrations that the boat room might have would be buffered by the water outside of the boat. This might be very interesting…. 

Rgs, the Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 56
Post ID: 19484
Reply to: 19480
Vox Olympian
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

Thank you. Now that you mention it, perhaps 85% of the stateroom in question was indeed beneath the waterline, meaning that the potential for unruly resonances was perhaps less than I had at first assumed. The front and rear walls of the room were straight - or as straight as may reasonably be expected on an antique yacht - whilst the side walls possessed a gentle curve, narrowing from front to rear, hence the lute analogy. It was indeed a transcendent experience, one which opened up vistas of possibility to me that I had not imagined existed before - which was exciting, to say the least - and I am looking forward to applying my intellect, an intellect uncolored by commercial concerns and those of tradition, to a speaker design of my own loosely based upon the Vox Olympian premise and those of the few other speakers I've found rewarding. Living Voice seems to be one of those companies, like Harbeth, who are not afraid of cabinet resonance per se, and instead acknowledge and attempt to work with it; this is something that I will be studying as my own speaker progresses, although since I am now drawn to something comprised of spherical horns more or less structured in the fashion of the Cessaro Gamma, cabinet resonance will be but a minimal part of the equation. However, said notion is but a starting point; things could well change profoundly as I progress.

Recently I've found the smaller Living Voice designs to be fighting at above their weight class, so to speak, although very much more in a "Hi-Fi" sense than their flagship; for this and the above reasons, I believe that your visit to Definitive Audio will be illuminating. You're quite right about the difference between English and American homes; the former customarily possess far less potential for uncontrolled resonance, particularly those homes with a little age. I am from London, originally, and grew up in a home built in the early C18th, with thick granite walls; almost as a matter of course, speakers sound more precise and uncolored in such structures, sometimes to a dramatic extent, which perhaps explains why US exports seldom do well in the UK, and vice versa; Definitive Audio is housed in such a structure, and that, together with the quality of the components and Kevin's skill in setup, should all but guarantee an interesting visit.

As I said, I am originally from London and do return on a semi-regular basis; should you require recommendations as to where best to eat, stay, visit etc, let me know and I'll be happy to make some suggestions.

Regards

de Charlus
06-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 57
Post ID: 19485
Reply to: 19484
The audio Herbs?
fiogf49gjkf0d

de Charlus, this “are not afraid of cabinet resonance per se” is complicated subject. I have raised the topic in the “How to USE “Resonating Oops” in loudspeakers” thread:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=3833

It looks like it “works” in one instance and does not work in other. The key in this that if one does embrace the “Resonating Oops” then it need to be done in the way that the Resonating does not manifest itself across all music as some kind of un-necessary common denominator. How to do it - I have no idea. With all my experiments I did not go for Resonating but “invented” active Injection, it sounds kind of contra-intuitive but in my case it does work phenomenally and I do not even think to use Macondo today without the injection. I need to mention that to use the “cabinet resonance” has kind of different effect then my Injection Channel. The Injection alter chromatic expressivity but Resonating more act in transients overriding. The mechanical transients that come from cabinet are very different then what we can produce from drivers and I presume that if it done properly it might be very interesting. The reasons why I mention it together is because when chromatic injection is done properly it feels like “mechanical transients”. This would unbelievable to anybody who not experimented with this, I did and I can testify that it works for some reason. When you colorize properly the first violins for instance (not in the ugly way how color Hi-Fi uselessly doe by flooding first violins with colorations but I am taking about deliberate, purposeful and measurable coloring) then the violins start to have that “rosin bite”. It is very interesting: you do not change texture of sound but juts slightly tint the chromatics but as a result you have feeling of the texture change.  The when same goes for upper bas where cello and bassoons operate – you just add slight touch of chromatic softness in second harmonics and in result you has more resonant and way more palatable sound.

I need to say that in my mind one of the primary reason why Vox Olympian might have that “Resonating Oops” (I do not know if they do as I never heard them) is because they use an amassing 15 driver and because the topology of their midbass -upper-bass is the one that allow them to use it. I need to admit that the topology of the Vox Olympian’s upperbass is not the one that I would advocate. However, the midbass driver that Living Voice use in that upperbass is an animal on it’s own. People have no idea what this driver is capable off, I do. The first time I heard it was in 2001. It was the mid of the nigh in Vegas, with the installation that was set up but was not demonstrated at CES. The topology was corner-loaded horn and the setting for midbass -upper-bass was accidently was perfect in that room. It was absolutely stunning midbass -upper-bass, I was literally flabbergasted as I never heard anything similar from audio. The very first things I did was running and buying the pair of AK 151 drivers. As I got them home and connected them just as they laid on the floor I heard the same stunning upper-bass. None of the common hoi-polloi crap even remotely able to shine with those colors. So, the Vox Olympian uses the same driver but they presumably enclosed it in light resonating stricture. It is highly possible that if they use some kind of, Eminence, Celestion TAD, B&C, JBL or Altec then they would have just a resonating boxes. The Vitavox might made it very much different and dispute the fact that Living Voice insisted that the “secret” is in the unique resonating enclosure but the reality is that the “secret” in the 15” driver that they use. I use the Vitavox 15 incher in my midbass but I do not have that “free breathe” with my midbass topology. I have some spare 15 inchers and thought to make a semi-direct resonator with them but the overall Macondo topology does not have a need for that channel. This is incredibly interesting subject to look into however as it is always good to experiment with gourmet cooking if you have “serious” raw ingredients…

Thanks, for your offer to “help” with London. I think I will be fine. My wife is absolutely crazy about London and she was there many times, in fact London is her the most beloved place in world. This means a lot as I hardly know a county what she did not spend time. So, I will be depending upon her guidance. It might be fun to have a listening session and some kind of talk with audio Londoners and to see if we could pickups the “small differences” between UK and US perception. Brits pronounce “Herbs” with “H” while in US “H” is silent and sound more like “Erbs”, I wonder if we could discover something similar in audio?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
de charlus
Posts 94
Joined on 06-11-2013

Post #: 58
Post ID: 19487
Reply to: 19485
Herbs and Speakers
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

It is indeed an interesting subject; I am instinctively drawn to it due to the fact that the majority of orchestral instruments - the majority of my listening is orchestral/chamber/classical soloists - produce their own sound through the resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure. Of course, to connect this with the ability, or otherwise, of a speaker system to reproduce music in any remotely synergistic fashion positively reeks of hocus-pocus, which is not to say that it's completely without virtue. It can be no coincidence that the presentations I most dislike come from those speakers whose emphasis is on massive inertia, mass, internal bracing/dampening and sundry other things geared towards "neutrality" (it will be a woeful day indeed when stringed instruments become "neutral") and although the dislike of one thing should not, I hope, be synonymous with the liking of another, I tend to find those speaker systems wherein the pursuit of "neutrality" is not sui generis to be more rewarding than otherwise.

You will find that the Wilson/Magico-type-thing as alluded to above to be uncommon in the UK, perhaps in part because, not being voiced for the type of houses (brick/stone-built with thick walls) common in Europe, such speakers can seem "neutral" to the point of utter emasculation, whilst those such as Living Voice, Harbeth, Spendor and the numerous hornspeakers available tend to strike a finer balance of detail and bloom in such settings. Because of this, the cult of high-power solid state amplification that the former speakers (together with the cult of reviewers) seem to demand is also rarefied. Of course, the xenophobia endemic in any culture to a certain extent popularizes the likes of Naim, Linn, Roksan, Quad, Croft, Canary, Nottingham Analogue and the aforementioned speaker manufacturers to a degree that might seem incomprehensible to an outsider, yet you will find that the radically different building traditions in the US and UK explain all that xenophobia does not - "our" kind of audio presentation makes sense to considerably more people in the UK than merely the anointed cabal who appreciate horns, SETs etc etc in the US.

The AK151 does indeed sound remarkable in the V.O., as does the S2, but having read your own take upon the former driver, it would seem that this is a unit capable of sounding remarkable under any number of different circumstances (such as has been my experience with the S2, hence my decision to base my own DIY project on these drivers). If the answer to the V.O.'s excellence (this is but my opinion, but I would be most surprised if you did not come to share my belief that this speaker stands alone atop the summit of commercially-produced speakers) lies indeed in the controlling, rather than the quashing, of cabinet resonance, then this is a still more remarkable achievement than I had at first thought. The rotation of the driver units cannot but affect the resonances of which we speak, and this would go some way towards elucidating the dramatic effect that rotating said drivers to the extent that they moved laterally only a millimeter or two had, since I do not believe it plausible that my acquaintance, despite having had the system very professionally set up, could possibly have alighted upon the DPOLS so lightly. Most of us not possessing laboratories, the science of cabinet resonance is not a sand-pit into which we DIYers and tweakers can enter in any way save that of trial-and-error, although those who are accustomed to wrestling with the resonances of horns are better-equipped than most to do so. More than ever, the differences between US and UK houses clarify for us the necessity of tailoring audio systems to the homes and rooms in which they are employed, be we consumers of herbs or 'erbs. I do not know what you mean by "injection channel", although I will doubtless find a germane thread upon seeking it; "rosin bite," on the other hand, I am very familiar with, and consider it a "coloration" much more commonly found in the UK school of speaker design than that of the US.

No problem as regards the London thing. There is, however, one thing that the visitor to London should consider essential and of which your wife may be unaware; the Martinis at Duke's hotel on St. James' St in St. James. In my very considerable experience, they are the best in the world. Oh, and to catch the LSO at the Albert Hall, together with the ROC at the Covent Garden Opera House, are experiences that should be sought out if at all possible. Oh, also, on Hampstead Heath there is a C17th Robert Adam mansion with a fine art collection and beautiful grounds; they stage orchestral performances on summer nights, the orchestra playing on an island in the middle of a small lake, the audience pic-nic-ing on the slope opposite. Of course, the acoustics are not ideal, but the experience is the thing, and laying upon a blanket, replete with a Fortnum's picnic and a bottle or two of Krug whilst the strains of something beautiful wash over one is really one of those experiences that stay with one for a long time and fuel one's passion for the pursuit of music. Exquisite....

Regards

de Charlus


06-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 59
Post ID: 19488
Reply to: 19487
Yes and no...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
It is indeed an interesting subject; I am instinctively drawn to it due to the fact that the majority of orchestral instruments - the majority of my listening is orchestral/chamber/classical soloists - produce their own sound through the resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure.
Hm, yes and no. Yes,  because of cause it is correct – any musical instrument use resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure. No, because it has nothing to do with audio. The mistake you made is very typical in audio, let me to explain. When a let say trumpet or viola player “ use the resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure” of own instrument then  not the responses crate the sound but the awareness of the player doe it. The player knows his/her instrument and has playing techniques, so the player not only use the responses but intentionally navigate and administer them in order to create the sound s/he intends. That does not exist in audio. Any resonance, coloration or character of sound are fixed and fixed mostly in linear pattern. There are some very rare adaptations of non-mechanical intelligence (like different level of narrow-band compression at different dynamic ranges) but they are very seldom. Mostly audio is brain-dead. If you build some kind of bent bass horn and it has the some kind of “resonance of a semi-sealed enclosure” then this resonance will be everywhere and always. The players who play that organ version of Art of Fugue do not know about that resonance in your midbass horn and THIS is the key in all of it. 

de Charlus, thanks for the London tips.  I will deploy wifey to the task, she is my traveling manager…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 19496
Reply to: 19487
...also...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 de charlus wrote:
You will find that the Wilson/Magico-type-thing....
I know that this is not the thead and this is not what you wanted to say but it is impossible to use a combination of "Wilson/Magico-type" as they are wery different companies withe very different products and objectives.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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