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02-18-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 3775
Reply to: 3772
I disagree with John Murray.

James,  you said that “Romy seems sure that Line arrays will only work properly when used on the long dimension of the room”, still you do not defined what it “only work properly”. Wherever you put the woofers they will work – the question would be where they produces less alinearity and where will inflict more positive influence to imaging. I say that along a long wall.  The LF arrays along a long wall produce better (WAY better) imaging and crate less standing waves in a room. The expense of the pro false is fine but I see a little correlation with what we do in hoe audio. I personally was successful with arrays only across the long walls. As far as I know the none-moronic high-end companies that the make the LF line-array-like speakers came to the same conclusions - I mean the Dunlavy speakers and the Australasian Duntech. Anyhow, James it will be very sample to check. When you bring the arrays home try both long and short wall positions. Listening for the imagine and the looking of your TRA will clearly tell you what to do.

I do not agree with John Murray’s “In order to act as a line source”.  I do not know also how he can advise on a crossover point without having a whole picture what you do.  Also I very much disagree that LF channels care no stereo information. Perhaps if you build a LF resonator that sits below 20Hz with 4th order then it might be the case. But an auditable sound does care stereo. John illustration about the ears is correct but we do not perceive LF by ears.

koshka_final.gif

Make an experiment and confirm for yourself. Take an playback the goes in it’s room down to 40Hz. Add to it a regular consumer subwoofer, crossed relatively sharply at 40H for instance. Place the subwoofer on the right. Then take a good stereo recording with an orchestra that position with all cellos and double bases are at extreme right from a conductor. Play the playback and get some reference. Not move the subwoofer on the left. Pay attention how higgledy misbalanced the Sound become. I mean everything is the same but you for whatever reasons feel very space-disoriented and you will have that feeling the something is not right. Try it, I did it many times. BTW, there is an irony in it. If you “get” that in the given recording the basses should be on the right then immoderate turn yourself back to the soundstage will give you a feeling of short relaxation….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,196
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 22
Post ID: 3779
Reply to: 3772
Home, pro and moveable bass

As a "sound man" friend has often said, the idea with pro installations is to start with plenty of volume and go from there, using a "board" to equalize for desired effects.  And as you know, many if not most pro installations also use surround effects to suit.  Of course the "board" is not just for traveling shows, but it is generally used even in "fixed" installations, in concert venues and the like, with the sound pretty much tailored to each event.

Well, YMMV, but I have to say that, although it was "educational", I did not enjoy time spent with a multi-band equalizer.  Likely my OCD personality figured in, but I about drove myself nuts with the thing.

If I were so lucky as to have your "problem", I would seriously think about putting some kind of defeat-able casters (or something) under LF units, because you are probably going to want to move the units around for a while (maybe quite a while) as you get your system dialed in.

John obviously knows his business, but practically speaking you will in any case have to adjust your own Hi-Fi system to your own tastes, and a certain amount of flexibility may well turn out to be a blessing.  Again, YMMV, but I can't recommend the full-tilt "board" thing for hi-fi.

If you think you might want to try surround and/or minimal EQ, you might also track down Gordon Holt, who has stuck steadfastly with this for almost two decades now.  He is a longtime concert recordist, and he has written quite a lot on the subject as it relates to home hi-fi.

Best regards,
Paul S

02-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 23
Post ID: 3781
Reply to: 3779
Genlecs on sticks - ouch
My string quartet have just spent 6 days recording haydn and being assaulted by nasty Genlecs. I can assure you that this is NOT what I want my system to sound like. (Actually I sort of began to see the point of them after a while.. but that's another story)

Dominic - At the moment I'm using ..

highs - BMS 4540nd - 1500hz lecleach roundhorn. crossover 1st order HP @ 30khz and 3khz
5842 choke loaded (reg psu) RC coupled into 6N15N (EL84)  with a custom sowter mumetal >1000hz xformer

midrange - BMS4592nd (midrange only special version) 250hz lecleach roundhorn. Crossover at 3khz LP and 600hz HP
5842 RC loaded into 2a3 parafeed into magnaquest cobalts.

midbass - Precision Devices PD15SB40nd in a 28litre concrete cast sealed box Q=.5. LP 70hz 1st order
5842 xformer coupled into Tripath amp 3020

the horns come out of a rakk dac with lundahl LL1674 passive outputs
the midbass use a behringer DEQ2496 (26cm delay) modified with passive outputs.
all crossovers are electrical - apart from the tweeter shelving cap and the inductor on the midrange

bass is a bit tricky in the room I'm in at the moment so I sometimes switch on my W subs (open baffle with 2* jbl 2226) with a behringer FBD as equaliser.

Actually the midbass section works very well indeed. Really very surprising sound. Very dynamic indeed. I have no problem playing high volume piano with no nasties appearing. And the HF roll off is very good sounding - very nice liquid sound, which works well with the mid horn.

When I move into the barn I'll probably replace the midbass with either a 45hz horn (suspended from ceiling) or a 90hz horn on the floor. I still have no idea how low this will get me. I'm prepared for the 45hz horn to need cutoff at 75hz or something - so that might leave the subs quite a lot to do.

My latest plan is to experiment with a mono 16hz horn opening into the roof 'corner' (the eaves are open) and wait to see what the 45hz horns do.

At least my immediate question - namely, do I ask my engineer to design the footings with horns underground - is solved with a resounding NO!
thanks to all

www.james.boyd.org


everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
02-19-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 3783
Reply to: 3781
Some D-ideas for the barn.

 op.9 wrote:
the horns come out of a rakk dac with lundahl LL1674 passive outputs
the midbass use a behringer DEQ2496 (26cm delay) modified with passive outputs.
James, if you use this DEQ2496 then you might find this thread worth attention.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=775 

in particularly pay attention to the Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h comments. A few years ago I was bitching that DEQ2496 sound like crap and here was the Jean-Michel reply. I think he is in on something and could be very correct:

Hello,

If you just took the Behringer and put it in you system as you said I am not surprise that it sounded bad.
Did you put any attenuators (by example -20dB) or step-down transformers on the outputs in order that the ADC (if you use analog inputs) and the DAC could operate at their best? If you didn't I agree that your trial was disapponting.
When I first replaced my previous active Kaneda crossover, which one used discrete stages and was excellent with the BSS FDS388 I was really disappointed. The sound was dirty, noisy, harsh... then I measured how many volts RMS I had on the input: 80mV. This meant that I had +37dB digital noise added. Then I put step down transformers and attenuators on every outputs and feed the inputs at high level (attention to clipping!)this was the best crossover I ever possessed. Please notice taht I have also tarnsformers at the input and that the crossover input lines and output lines are balanced.
Many members of the discussion group in French of which I am moderator then did the same: putting attenuators or step-down transformers on the outputs and most of them report excellent sound. Did all of them are nuts and must also suffer your mockery?

Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h, Paris, France


I do not want to convert this subject into the DEQ2496 but I thigh that you might find the reference useful.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-19-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 25
Post ID: 3784
Reply to: 3783
only digital in
Thanks Romy,
very interesting thread.
I've never tried the analogue inputs for the DEQ2496. If I want analogue in (which is rarely) I use a mytek a/d which sounds quite nice (but oneday when I get the time I'm going to modify it with i/p transformers .. .). The DEQ d/a section seems very good to me. Especially when used with a passive output filter. I'm going to play around with the analogue section PSU at some point. But first I want to take digital out and try a DAC that is complimentary to my mid-bass sound. I'm thinking of a NOS dac like the DDDAC (TDA1543 *8). Reports are that its very dynamic and exciting. Did anyone have experiance with this sort of dac?

I have to admit that I use the DEQ as a gentle eq from 160-900 hz to aid my woofers integration with my 250hz horns. Its a real bonus to fiddle around with this area while leaving the midrange untouched. Seems like the best of all worlds, because without it I'd have to revert to a 12db/octave or more xover.  And life did improve when I went 6db/octave everywhere.. I can't hear any degredation in midbass quality when the eq section is switched in.

cheers
james




everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
12-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 26
Post ID: 6173
Reply to: 3781
Midrange clarification
Dominic - At the moment I'm using ..

highs - BMS 4540nd - 1500hz lecleach roundhorn. crossover 1st order HP @ 30khz and 3khz
5842 choke loaded (reg psu) RC coupled into 6N15N (EL84)  with a custom sowter mumetal >1000hz xformer

midrange - BMS4592nd (midrange only special version) 250hz lecleach roundhorn. Crossover at 3khz LP and 600hz HP
5842 RC loaded into 2a3 parafeed into magnaquest cobalts.

A little off the thread, but James, when you say BMS4592nd, you probably mean BMS4591 because the former model is actually coaxial mid/tweeter unit
and not a midrange only special version. However, if you do use BMS4591 (as I suspect), then you might easily try a higher crossover point between
midrange and tweeter, say at about 6 or 7 khz, where the BMS4591 naturally decays and I suspect the whole reproduction would benefit substantially.
This is what Romy is preaching all the time and from my personal experience I can confirm it is much better than the usual 3 khz co point.
I hope anti-BMS police didn`t notice...
12-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
op.9
Planet Earth
Posts 68
Joined on 01-26-2007

Post #: 27
Post ID: 6175
Reply to: 6173
I meant it
No, i really did mean a 4592nd midrange - it is a OEM version that I think I bought from assistance audio. There are various reasons I'm crossing over at 3k (more like 2500hz now) - first, the horns are 250hz and therefore too deep for high treble without excessive beaming. Second, to my ears these units sound quite course and unappealing used full range. They do however play very well lower down. Violin fundamentals are thrilling - (an open violin E string can have real weight and body) and they don't have any horny problems used with a 700hz first order.
isn't 700-2400 a wasteful use of a horn you ask? - well I always intended this channel to be more like a 'fundamentals' channel

The superb bargain 4540nd are taking a back seat at the moment. I wanted to find something special and different to compare them to so I'm playing around with a double version of a raal 140-15 (again - not on his website). This is quite an extraordinary driver. Its early days yet, but I've yet to really identify its character properly. They do have an uncanny ability to 'charge the room' and can faithfully reproduce that air-distortion-crackle (does this have a name?) produced by loud sopranos and high wood wind.

now on with those 115hz horns....
op.9



everybody used to call me James in my past other-worldly life.
12-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
horny
Posts 28
Joined on 11-19-2007

Post #: 28
Post ID: 6176
Reply to: 6175
Midrange clarification
Thanks for your quick reply. I have been to assistance audio`s website, however was unable to find such model, but is possible they just disassembled the tweeter or whatever.
This is really interesting news, about their violin reproduction, me too would like to achieve as good as possible violin reproduction without spending a fortune on exotic or vintage drivers.
Of course, I don`t consider 700-2400 a wasteful use of a horn, I just thought of a little higher crossovering. Right now I am listening (God forbid !) to a 5 inch paper midrange coupled
to a 60 cm diameter (270 Hz) rounded tractrix horn, without a backchamber (shoot me), mated to a LCY 108 ribbon with a modified (by me) totally flat ribbon and to 8 inch paper woofer
in a transmission line (with the same effective diameter throughout as the driver itself). All drivers wired with the same polarity, crossover points at 600 and 9000 Hz, bass and tweeter
second order (electrically) and midrange only one series cap. The sound is warm and involving The reason I made my own flat ribbon foils is I hate the sound of corrugated ribbons, this is also the same reason (among others) I predict Raal will perform excellent. This week I am moving on to a bigger system with a 93 cm diameter rounded tractrix horn and 60 cm midrange tractrix horn in search for the higher efficiency and better sound. I was considering Beyma aluminium 2 inch compression driver (Beyma CP755NdAL) or Radian 950 PB, they seem quite promising, but will start with a cheap P-Audio WN 73 first (all crap, I suppose to the elite folks). Only when I`ll get to know those cheaper drivers, will I be willing to try (if money considerations will permit) anything better and more expensive.

regards

horny
12-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 6178
Reply to: 6176
The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver.

 horny wrote:
… me too would like to achieve as good as possible violin reproduction without spending a fortune on exotic or vintage drivers.

I have voiced my frustrations about many contemporary compression drivers. People who manufacture horns today turn prays to BMS, TAD, 180-Sound, TOA, B&C, Radian, Eminence, Beyma, JBL, RCF and a few others, laying to themselves and others that they “modify” them, believing that their delusional tweaking of those divers make any serious difference in delivered sound. They pray to those drivers however not because they are OK but because they are the only drivers that are available commercially.

I do not like contemporary compression drivers as I feel they do not have necessary total quality. I have no idea where “tone” comes in compression drivers, well I have an idea but I can’t manage Tone intentionally. I have never also seen others able to produce Tone in compression drivers by request.

Sure, the vintage drivers are very much NOT free from problems; in fact they are much more complex in use then the contemporary drivers. Still, I feel that some (very few of them) vintage drivers are more fertile.  The exotic price that some vintage drivers have developed recently is certainly an ugly factor but first of not all of exotic and expensive drivers are worth to buy. Second the higher price for the vintage drivers is not a really a higher price if do not subscribe the BS fetish that many brainless Morons spread about the vintage drivers – with “right” driver do not look for anything else and it save a lot of money.

So, in the end I do suggest to try some “exotic vintage drivers” some of them do have merit. The biggest problem in vintage compression drivers is not the price but inability of people to provide true information about vintage drivers as many people who share information about vintage drivers mostly juts swell anxiety and fetish…


http://www.romythecat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=4685

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4014

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2546

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2694

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 2 of 2 (29 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Exceptional loudspeakers drivers..  Compression tweeters...  Audio Discussions  Forum     34  314515  06-12-2006
  »  New  The Ridiculous Japa-Brazilian horn. ..  I think you are misting the other side of the picture....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     54  303921  03-02-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  196637  04-30-2007
  »  New  Building a new music room..  Here is my take for a room that I would like to deal wi...  Playback Listening  Forum     20  108512  10-16-2007
  »  New  The European Triode Festival’s horns..  Assholes, learn from Grande Castine...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     47  407773  12-13-2007
  »  New  Make your own horns?..  I have no wet dreams about horns…...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  20511  01-22-2008
  »  New  About bass horns by Johan Dreyer..  There are lowest bass horns and there are not lowest b...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  70668  02-11-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Sorry, no images any more....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     56  515896  04-23-2009
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1604580  07-26-2009
  »  New  Experience Music Horn Installation @ VSAC..  RCA MI-1428B vs Vitavox S2...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     25  201731  05-27-2008
  »  New  My Multi-way Horns..  Faital chamber/ratio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  99015  11-29-2009
  »  New  Many Mani's options: My first horns..  Well, you need to read a whole book....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     27  106705  01-20-2010
  »  New  New speaker system..  One more horn speaker system to look at...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  68904  03-16-2010
  »  New  Dedicated Music Room Build..  Show it....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  42055  03-03-2011
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