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02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 24673
Reply to: 24672
Not really.
 martinshorn wrote:
I agree its a relief to hear finally someone describing something. Because all the mysterious dust around it makes one really curious …
Josh, I do not see any mysterious dust around Goto drivers and it is not because my blindness but become the mysterious dust not really exists. The Sound character of Goto drivers is well known and there is no mystery in there. However, anybody who play with audio seriously knows that the sound a playback make is not derive strictly from quality and character of drivers, amplifier, turntables or any other specific entity but rather form a composite overview of the system owner   about the sound he would like to accomplish and from his capacity to do it. THAT is the area what in my view the Goto owners slip most of the time. They pile up their Goto drivers with no sense of what they do and whatever thir playbacks sound they do not sound even close to what how they might sound, the recent example of that idiot from Moscow was very typical and very characteristic. I am not tailing about this Germans fellow that you visited, I am taking about a typical Goto owner and the system idea that are patronized by the Goto manufacture are emblematically horrible. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 24674
Reply to: 24672
Sound vs Sounds + more about Goto
 martinshorn wrote:
This is at least how i (surprisingly) perceived Goto: very wild - though not colored, respectively. And very important how you choose your words - the way of presentation. This is a fine but important difference to "having own sound" which i perceive like coloration. Which really wasnt the case. So ill remember that phrase, a very good one!
I would not agree with this comment as well. Let agree that "having own sound" and “colored” is not the same things. I would not even use the "having own sound" but rather "having own presentation" and ended Goto do have own presentation or own sound. There is nothing wrong in the concept of having own sound of the word Sound is understood properly. Vienna, Chicago, Leningrad and Prague orchestras, each of them have own presentation and own sound but I do not think anybody would call it “coloration”. Own sound is a character of Sound but colorations as characteristics of sounds. It is Sound vs Sounds and unfortunately in audio we seldom talk about Sound and mostly talk about sounds. There is another interesting twist in this ploy that should not be forgotten. In orchestral Sound it is perfectly fine to have colorations from Sounds in audio it is not fine. The reason is because the orchestral Sounds are created by people, they are aligned with human intentions and they have no structural consistency. The orchestral coloration at one specific musical moment might or might not be resulting with orchestral coloration during another musical event. In audio it is very different. If you driver, room, filter or amplifier has a specific coloration at a given dynamic and frequency region then this coloration will be there ALL TIME and this coloration has structural and harmonic consistency. 
 
So, returning to your Goto drivers. Like anything else in Audio they have own Sound, own sounds and own presentation. It is up to a system owner to navigate all of it and make some characters more prevailing and some less. I agree, Goto have less sounds colorations then Altecs for instance that is expected considering the magnetic force, moving mass  and presumably quality of assembly. But this is not what I find interesting in Goto. The most remarkable in my view about Goto is that they somebody render the character of the sound despite that they are not too sophisticated in pure colors department. I know that you was very impressed how colorfully Goto were but it is not my experience. Still, somehow, being colors challenged Goto somehow does not give an impression of color insufficiency. I think this is a very interesting character of Goto sound. Here is an illustration for you that I would associate with Goto sound. There is no firework of colors in the image below but no one would feel that the image has a shortage of colors.


GotoSound_WinterImage.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 23
Post ID: 24675
Reply to: 24674
Some more background on that system
Hi Romy,

Again, good words (don't want to kiss your ass Wink ). Though, I get your point and agree, one should not think that this winter picture means Goto sound cold (u never know what one could read out of it) .

What Klaus also highlighted, is the importance to him to unlimit dynamics - in order to achieve the most live-alike sound.
First of all, he noticed that Goto pleases him the most with uncompressed transient attacks more than other drivers.
Of course this means to have horns in all octaves. To also have maximum dynamics in lows.
Same importance to him was not to fold any horn, because folding costs you some dynamics (even if you fold and filter well to prevent coloration), you always loose dynamic in a fold.
Designated amps (Active) are of course non-negotiable to support this further. It took him many mocups and trash to find this final ones.

Then it was important to have all octaves with horns, made in same style. One of his secrets was, to design all channels coherent, meaning having the same character.
All drivers shall have the same flavor. For him, it is better to choose e.g. a tweeter that plays a little less good but matches the rest, rather than taking the best in each channel but not merging into one harmonic total. That's why it was important to choose all drivers Goto, and all preferably from the same series with same diaphragm material. He admits, there was one better tweeter model in the goto-portfolio, but he wouldn't like to disturb the harmony they all have together as one.
Many people make the mistake to pick the best, neglecting the collaboration. My ears could very much confirm consistency in all channels.

He also prefers filter of 4th order, and crosses in the very latest version with 90-300-1600-6600 cycles all in same filter typology.
The time alignment is being precisely "absolute" between super tweeter and tweeter (6600).
The alignment between tweeter and midrange is done "relative" to have the mouth almost aligned (prevent reflections) but still slightly offset. To merge both at the 1600 cycles in one positive non cancelation period of the wave. So the tweeter is only slightly set back, however it improved the phase response a lot.
A similar relative alignment is done between mid-bass-sub channels, where rather the mouth is aligned but you have a smooth continuous increasement of groupdelay downwards.
Considering the phase-shift of 4th order, it very well might be a smooth transition without "stairs" in the groupdelay.
He had an engineer doing the precise final alignment with measurements for timing only.

I must say, I'm trained noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems especially in the lows. And I could not hear any smeared transients. Considering that bad filters often cause 10 times worse effects than such 4 meter offset in the lows, this even sounds logical. I was surprised with this too.

Last but not least, I was very happy to have someone confirming my vague theory, the basshorn pre-chamber very much influences the sound in terms of speed and transient.
Prechamber volumes must be avoided and are not to be overcome with phase plugs. He designed the long bass horn 4 meter long from driver to mouth. Utilizing 2 x 15 inch Gotos. But the horn continues further behind the drivers to infinite small size. So that actually no pre chamber exists, just the drivers have an offset from the point-zero, as much as needed to fit the big drivers onto the horn.
Also adding a slight advantage, one driver plays with front-face in phase, the other 15 incher plays out of phase with the rear-side. This cancels out any remaining assymetric behavior of the bigger heavier non-compression drivers. My ears also confirm the superb lightness and speed and ease of precision in the whole bass. So as the consistency of flavors, this was pointed by me before he even explained the design typology behind to achieve this (!)


These are his first fundamental principles of that setup that came to my mind for now.
I must say, it is nice to see and understand, that a systems quality is not about the individual component but the harmony of combination.
So in a way, I did not listen to "goto". I did listen to Klaus' individual composition.
And people fallen in obsession with a specific brand should very much remember this.
It is what you design out of it, not which component you can afford.
I would not be surprised if Klaus had built similar quality with non-goto drivers, but same understanding of design principles.


cheers
Josh
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 24676
Reply to: 24675
Interesting, educational but in many aspects debatable in my view
 martinshorn wrote:
What Klaus also highlighted, is the importance to him to unlimit dynamics - in order to achieve the most live-alike sound. First of all, he noticed that Goto pleases him the most with uncompressed transient attacks more than other drivers. Of course this means to have horns in all octaves. To also have maximum dynamics in lows. Same importance to him was not to fold any horn, because folding costs you some dynamics (even if you fold and filter well to prevent coloration), you always loose dynamic in a fold. 
I do not know if I agree with it. There is no doubts about dynamics, here is your Klaus is correct and you are pitching to a converted. The “maximum dynamics in lows” is a complicated subject but I would not debate it. Where I disagree is that “folding costs you some dynamics” and “you always loose dynamic in a fold. Folding introduce a bunch of resonating chambers and cost audio coloration in most of the cases that do MASK OUT the transient dynamics but folding itself should not have an impact to dynamics itself.
 martinshorn wrote:
Then it was important to have all octaves with horns, made in same style. One of his secrets was, to design all channels coherent, meaning having the same character. 
All octaves with horns, made in same style? I am sorry, it is nonsense in my view. The lower you get in frequency the slower horn opening should be, I will stick with this rule. There is absolutely nothing that demands all change to be the same opening rate. For sure when the horns in the same style it does serves great optical benefit. You Klaus looks like did made the horns of the same style. Good for him and I am glad it works for him. However, there is absolutely no need to declare it as some kind of mandatory rule.
 martinshorn wrote:
All drivers shall have the same flavor. For him, it is better to choose e.g. a tweeter that plays a little less good but matches the rest, rather than taking the best in each channel but not merging into one harmonic total. That's why it was important to choose all drivers Goto, and all preferably from the same series with same diaphragm material. He admits, there was one better tweeter model in the goto-portfolio, but he wouldn't like to disturb the harmony they all have together as one. Many people make the mistake to pick the best, neglecting the collaboration. My ears could very much confirm consistency in all channels. 
Again, I do not agree with it. It is good that you do not use word synergy and the audio reviewers love to use. The section of the best driver in each individual channel does include the assurance that the drivers will be working together and should be evaluated together. Furthermore if proper evaluation is made then the selection of the “best drivers” should ONLY woks as complimentary pairs. There is absolutely no reason why the best drivers would be from a same barrel. 
 martinshorn wrote:
He also prefers filter of 4th order, and crosses in the very latest version with 90-300-1600-6600 cycles all in same filter typology. 
Good for him but in my books this is the biggest flow in his system. The problem is that he use very fragile drivers that fry like crazy, ask any Goto distributor and they will let you know that true statistics how many tweeter and MD drivers they replace diaphragms. Goto has very light and thin voice coils and they are spectacular. They are also unfortunately very fragile for current handling. This is where the “preferable” 4th order come from. In my view 4th order has too much damage, particularly with speaker level filtration.
 martinshorn wrote:
The time alignment is being precisely "absolute" between super tweeter and tweeter (6600). The alignment between tweeter and midrange is done "relative" to have the mouth almost aligned (prevent reflections) but still slightly offset. To merge both at the 1600 cycles in one positive non cancelation period of the wave. So the tweeter is only slightly set back, however it improved the phase response a lot. A similar relative alignment is done between mid-bass-sub channels, where rather the mouth is aligned but you have a smooth continuous increasement of groupdelay downwards. Considering the phase-shift of 4th order, it very well might be a smooth transition without "stairs" in the groupdelay.  
Well, I am glad that he does not present it as a mandatory requirement :-). With the size of his horns and with the way how the system is organized for sure the time alignment is very hard to of ever possible. It is what it is, we all were there. It is very much debatable if the 4th order helps the smooth transition in LF. The dreadful “stairs” are afraid but they are the amplitude problem and in my view we do not hear amplitude but phase.  With first order in LF we are much more involve room into play and we smear phase anomalies over speakers and room response. I am not insisting that I am right, I saying that it is debatable.
 martinshorn wrote:
I must say, I'm trained noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems especially in the lows. And I could not hear any smeared transients. Considering that bad filters often cause 10 times worse effects than such 4 meter offset in the lows, this even sounds logical. I was surprised with this too. 
Possible. Would you be so kind to share what subjective methodology/principle you use to recognize “noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems” in LF.
 martinshorn wrote:
Last but not least, I was very happy to have someone confirming my vague theory, the basshorn pre-chamber very much influences the sound in terms of speed and transient. Prechamber volumes must be avoided and are not to be overcome with phase plugs. He designed the long bass horn 4 meter long from driver to mouth. Utilizing 2 x 15 inch Gotos. But the horn continues further behind the drivers to infinite small size. So that actually no pre chamber exists, just the drivers have an offset from the point-zero, as much as needed to fit the big drivers onto the horn. 
Sorry, I did not get this. Did you mean the back chamber? No one use phase plugs for 15 inch drivers. If he use 2 x 15 inch drivers and no front chamber then he has a huge throat size and his horns do not use his Goto as compression drivers but have direct radiators blowing into a pipe. I am not saying that it is bad but then he has very low horns equalization and he very much might not need to use the horns but just direct radiators.
 martinshorn wrote:
Also adding a slight advantage, one driver plays with front-face in phase, the other 15 incher plays out of phase with the rear-side. This cancels out any remaining assymetric behavior of the bigger heavier non-compression drivers. My ears also confirm the superb lightness and speed and ease of precision in the whole bass. So as the consistency of flavors, this was pointed by me before he even explained the design typology behind to achieve this (!) 
Yes, the sandwich woofer is known topology and it with many mini monitors make bass to be “large”. I do not have an experience to use in horns, it does sound very interesting. Also, it make more sense about him using  2 x 15 inch drivers, so it would effectively use one 15 inch driver (thank God that he has no 30 sq inch throat!!!) and another 15 inch driver acts as active back chamber wall. Very sexy but I would not predict the result until I try. Some open baffle people use the techniques to virtually extend the baffle size, putting the drivers at 90 degree to baffle and with small space between them. They however use the drivers in-phase, if you know what I mean…
 martinshorn wrote:
I did listen to Klaus' individual composition. And people fallen in obsession with a specific brand should very much remember this. 
Yes, this is a very valid and very useful comment.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 25
Post ID: 24677
Reply to: 24676
Small misunderstandings :)
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Folding introduce a bunch of resonating chambers and cost audio coloration in most of the cases that do MASK OUT the transient dynamics but folding itself should not have an impact to dynamics itself.

Might be the point here, masking (decay) reduces transients perceptional. Lets not be too picky.I very much perceive Klaus as an intuitive designer, not worrying about the mathematical explanation in the first place.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

All octaves with horns, made in same style? I am sorry, it is nonsense in my view. The lower you get in frequency the slower horn opening should be, I will stick with this rule. There is absolutely nothing that demands all change to be the same opening rate. For sure when the horns in the same style it does serves great optical benefit. You Klaus looks like did made the horns of the same style. Good for him and I am glad it works for him. However, there is absolutely no need to declare it as some kind of mandatory rule.

This is not to be understood as a visual feature. He very much refers to the tractrix function on one hand. And also about using round shapes.As you see in the lowest horn it definitely compromises some mouth size actually, he admits that. So it is a slower opening horn there, but basically due to size limitations.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Again, I do not agree with it. It is good that you do not use word synergy and the audio reviewers love to use. The section of the best driver in each individual channel does include the assurance that the drivers will be working together and should be evaluated together. Furthermore if proper evaluation is made then the selection of the “best drivers” should ONLY woks as complimentary pairs. There is absolutely no reason why the best drivers would be from a same barrel. 

In general, im talking out of memory, plus translation, free style. So be careful with taking my single words too serious. I wont repeat all this in front of a judge Wink Touchy thing, i hope i quote the most correctly to get "the rough idea" of what he meant.So, he definitely put a high priority on a collaboration harmony. And it is very obvious to hear that everything plays together and nothing stands out in its performance. For me, picking best in each job, was (likely for most people too) the standard. Till i got inspired here, to not only select for example a tweeter by its tweeting performance but also evaluate more how it would play with the rest. One tweeter that you may like, could not necessarily be the best in your horn system. And once disqualified in setup A, still it could be "the tweeter" in your totally different setup B some years later. Honestly, listening to the whole harmony of that composition, I feel this is a very inspiring thought!And not slightly, i think this was maybe the number 1 of his most important design philosophies!
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Good for him but in my books this is the biggest flow in his system. The problem is that he use very fragile drivers that fry like crazy, ask any Goto distributor and they will let you know that true statistics how many tweeter and MD drivers they replace diaphragms. Goto has very light and thin voice coils and they are spectacular. They are also unfortunately very fragile for current handling. This is where the “preferable” 4th order come from. In my view 4th order has too much damage, particularly with speaker level filtration.

Sure the filter steepness and XO point have to be seen together. In my view, only the 90 cycles XO on the lowest comp. driver was questionable.However, we listened very loud and it remained absolutely confident and laid back. So it seems to work well enough.We couldve turned it up another 10dB, but that wouldve been definately no joy for more than a minute.He said, in earlier days that compression driver even ran down to 20 cycles in a bigger horn, before the 15 inchers existed.So even that worked. But there it was definately stressed, limited and upper bass coloured by too big horn.
 
 Romy the Cat wrote:

...in my view we do not hear amplitude but phase.  With first order in LF we are much more involve room into play and we smear phase anomalies over speakers and room response. I am not insisting that I am right, I saying that it is debatable......
Possible. Would you be so kind to share what subjective methodology/principle you use to recognize “noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems” in LF.

Well there i have the opposite opinion Smile We do hear amplitude, not phase. We actually even hear the transient shape in amplitude terms, rather than the single tones amplitude. Imho our ear is not designed to be phase sensitive, unless you so excessively deform phase till it re-shapes the transients amplitude.I hear it the same way. Having made experiments to train my ear to phase artefacts without touching the amplitude i have my statement:Phase does not change tonality nor stage or room projection. Phase exclusively influences transient perception. In the heights, it can create metallic sharpness, while in lows smears initially crisp drum hits from "TAM" sound into a "T...ammmmmmm" (bouncy, rolling, fat, undefined).
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Sorry, I did not get this. Did you mean the back chamber? No one use phase plugs for 15 inch drivers. 

Well, i did Smile I perceived a phase-alike artefact of slow softness when the pre-chamber is too big (>5 liters... a 15 inch cone already got 8 liter volume of air within its diaphragm surface to the mounting frame...)A phase plug eliminates that prechamber "air bag" that softens the transient attack. But the phase plug also increases compression, made it sound a little stressed. So i did not know how to solve this.Klaus idea is great here and it sonically combines the best - let me show it via picture otherwise one cannot imagine:

This also explains the isobaric setup of both drivers.They use a conventional closed rear cabine. And radiate properly loaded into the horn.
cheersJosh
02-05-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 24678
Reply to: 24677
Very inspiring bass drivers loading.
 martinshorn wrote:
This also explains the isobaric setup of both drivers.They use a conventional closed rear cabine. And radiate properly loaded into the horn.
Sorry, I did not understand the loading you described, I thought it is one after another along the horn axis. After you depicted I got it I got it. In my view, this is absolutely brilliant configuration for bass drivers. I never heard such a configuration but from what I know it is a wonderful decision. If I do my midbass horn I would do something similar. It should be a real pain in ass trying to guess what should be the size of that triangular back chamber but it is doable. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 24679
Reply to: 24678
About the Germany Loading.
I keep thinking about the type of the loading the guy from Germany used. I am not sure if I agree with Josh that the absence of front chamber if the key for the success that Josh describes. Let analyze it. 
 
The front chamber for LF drivers is not bad at all. The frequency at which the LF drivers operate makes the front chamber very much irrelevant. I case of dual 15” drives the front chamber always in play and throat size become huge and consequentially the horn become huge. In case the Germany Loading (as Josh described above) the Germany front chamber is not there, it is not good or bad, it is not there. There is of cause a very strong resonance opportunity as the location where the horn close in the back but the space behind (the horn tail) is very smalls and the resonance will be too high to care.
Josh claims to his liking of the result from the horn very much and he feels that it is become there is no front chamber. However, horn used a driver that Josh does not know and therefore I do not feel that Josh has a methodological reason to associate a reported good sound from the horn with the lack of front chamber. I feel if a person knows that sound of a driver as a direct radiator on sealed configuration and see the equalization response coming from a horn then a person can claim that a given type of loading was successful. Without knowing all of it is is very difficult to attribute causality for good sound. If sound is bad then it is frequently easy to say why but if sound if good then we need to be very conservative to reverence one or another narrow parameter. 
 
Please, do not feel that I question the Josh judgment about the sound he heard. Furthermore I do find that the Germany Loading is dazzling and very much deserves attention. (I would not use the driver in opposite phase and keep the horn channel free from second driver’s basket). What I do assert is that the good result that Josh report from this horn NOT NECESSARY derive from the fact the horn does not have a classical front chamber.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 163
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 28
Post ID: 24680
Reply to: 24674
Ghost.
GOTO make me feel it renders the musicians like they are ghosts. They are all in there but floating and slightly transparent.

I think the reason for that is GOTO does very interesting things at highs and mid-highs but while it goes down at the frequencies it start losing colors, or sounding more and more none.

At the same time I feel ALE does almost exactly the opposite. That does interesting things from lowers to low-mids and then start to sound none while going up at the frequencies, but in the ALE particular case the thing is more like sounding vintage or lazy.

With those particular characteristics, and if those are not just (my) impressions but something true, there is a quality hole exactly in the mid-range (for my taste at least). Maybe the Vitavox S2 (or GIP-594A or GIP-9101) would the ideal partner, how knows?



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
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Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 24681
Reply to: 24680
Goto vs S2
I would like to pass my observation about the whole notion of Goto vs S2. Some might feel that that my observations would be less relevant as I personally did not experiment with Goto drivers. So, there is no reason for you to read further. I head a few Goto installations and I have quite good experience to deal with Goto sound vicariously. I spoke with a number of very knowledgeable Goto users about Goto, including Reinhard , the gentleman who owns or co-own the playback under discussion of this thread. I do hear well what those people say. I also dealt a numbers of idiots Goto users and I do have a very good truck to get from them the information that I need and the fools did not even understand what was going on. Still, I do not have my personal experience with Goto (in my playback) and this should be taken under consideration. 
 
I meant to replay about it to Josh after his comments about Goto superior tonal quality but something made me not to do it. The truth to be told (as I see it) that Goto is not really a tonal driver and this very much made it very different from S2. We in audio are very much accustomed to tonal drivers. The more spectra or colors drives can furnish with introducing a permanent coloration the better driver is. Of cause the dynamic contrasts and the rest of it are factors but the fertility of color potency is a super important feature. The S2 is super reach in colors and if it is used properly it has no permanent colorations. I took the notion of chromic expression further then I have seen anywhere else by intestinally compromising some other aspects of playback, introducing the injection channel. It was very deliberate move. I would argue if I did it because I find even S2 not colorful enough or because there are other reason… I can advocate both sides. What important however is that my playback with S2 to a great degree made with chromatic objectives. 
 
The Goto drivers in my view are not chromatic at all. What we, the people with chromatic objectives value in sound, in my view, do not exist in Goto and if I compare Goto, having colors in my mind, even to some good vintage JBL drivers then Goto would not the winner. All known to me drivers, even the top of the line RCA MI, WE 9XX, Klangfilm KL are all tonal drivers. Goto is not. Still, listening Gotos I, being a very much tonal person, somehow have no frustration about the apparent lack of Goto colors. The reachness of tone just evaporate from my mind when I heard Goto and it is very strange about those drivers. I have no explanation how they do it but I have a suspicion that it is all about the Goto diaphragm suspension, the unique combination of material, thickness, magic force driving the VC made the sound very uniquely “plastic”, but in a very good meaning of the word. This atonal, “plastic” and super dynamic sound is very appealing and somehow make brain do not worry about colors. I hate to use word “plastic” as it is condescending and I have no negative meaning saying it. The TAD do sound “plastic” or “synthetic” but in bad way. Goto, if they do not have that very remarkable dynamics, would be sounding like top of the line TADs, but they do not. They have own “synthetic” sound but it is very natural and very attractive sound, which very much bring a questions: if “synthetic” is good then should I keep calling it “synthetic”? 
 
To me listening Goto is like touching a Teflon surface, it is very pleasurable. Following the same association to me listening S2 is like patting a brashed porcupine. Well, none of them live sound but for sure the Teflon is more pleasurable to touch.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,163
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 30
Post ID: 24682
Reply to: 24681
Texture
A somehow-related thing is "texture", and - of course - what we want is the "availability" of a range of musically relevant textures rather than textural "overlay".  The S2 and the Altec 808 had this potential, but I never heard it from the JBL 375, which was prized for its "smoothness".  Greedy listener that I am, I want both colors and texture, which sum along with "shape" to make "timbre".

Paul S
02-11-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 31
Post ID: 24683
Reply to: 24681
Woof...
Hi Roman, hi all...
... very interesting topic... 
I recently made the contact between Josh and Klaus and his Goto system... I experienced Klaus' system three times and also if someway blaming his choices about using only and exclusively "liquid music" and quite to my surprise my mild blaming just lasted a few seconds after every listening sessions at Klaus' place.
Sound - thanking Mr. Speth's well-conceived large 100 square meters auditorium and large MDF straight horns, more than the notorious Goto's drivers - is unique in naturalness and trueness!
The Goto drivers in my view are not chromatic at all. What we, the people with chromatic objectives value in sound, in my view, do not exist in Goto and if I compare Goto, having colors in my mind, even to some good vintage JBL drivers then Goto would not the winner. All known to me drivers, even the top of the line RCA MI, WE 9XX, Klangfilm KL are all tonal drivers. Goto is not. Still, listening Gotos I, being a very much tonal person, somehow have no frustration about the apparent lack of Goto colors. The reachness of tone just evaporate from my mind when I heard Goto and it is very strange about those drivers. I have no explanation how they do it but I have a suspicion that it is all about the Goto diaphragm suspension, the unique combination of material, thickness, magic force driving the VC made the sound very uniquely “plastic”, but in a very good meaning of the word. This atonal, “plastic” and super dynamic sound is very appealing and somehow make brain do not worry about colors. I hate to use word “plastic” as it is condescending and I have no negative meaning saying it. The TAD do sound “plastic” or “synthetic” but in bad way. Goto, if they do not have that very remarkable dynamics, would be sounding like top of the line TADs, but they do not. They have own “synthetic” sound but it is very natural and very attractive sound, which very much bring a questions: if “synthetic” is good then should I keep calling it “synthetic”? 
The above "plastic", "syntetic" so-called neutral character is simply a description of sort... sure very interesting, but let me say, quite academic... the FRP suspension give, well: suspension to beryllium or titanium diaphragm, period.
... sure not a plastic, homogenised sound... yet "plastic", plasticity is a good, correct description - i.e. looking, in awe, among the musical building, the notes, the pauses... 
To my ears, as also a Goto user since 2005, neutrality isn't coldness or unmusical overall sound.
Let me make a comparison with studio microphones: B&K/DPA 4006 are very clean sounding, sporting a very linear 20-20Khz frequency response... a Neumann U47 is coloured in comparison and its frequency response is dips and spikes... a mess.
Both sounds very, very well... I had a long experience with vintage Altecs', RCA MIs' and Westrex' drivers and horns, and several Telefunken', Goodmans' Axiom 80 and Siemens speakers... tasted the "textured" and the Goto "plastic" sound.
To my ears Goto's make something others, ALE included, doesn't: their sound is so unfatiguing and smooth and quick and various that they never supersede them to a Martin or a Lowden acoustic guitar or to a Stradivari or a Guarneri violin... what's on disc or tape arrives in spades to the listener, not only the scholar but also and most of all to the occasional listener. 
My five cents and appreciation for usual insight only at Romy's is well "here".
   


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
02-12-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 32
Post ID: 24684
Reply to: 24683
Explanation of magic dust...
Hi everyone,
Ive been tracking this exciting conversation for some days. One from outside may think this is weird, we are making a lot of air about some sound-description without getting to the point. Im (or was) normally more rational. And if I read something like that years ago id just leave that page SmileNow, in the beginning i wrote, there is not much description about Goto Sound in the web. 

I understand now why. There actually is. Like "oh that air, that soul, that mystique aura of plasticity...." and I thought "and what? wheres the point? speak sense, cut the BS"... and that made me think there is no (serious) sound description of Goto.Well then I heard em and i cannot do it any better Big Smile hehe. There is nothing wrong about Goto and it would be an ordinary boring thing if not after 30 minutes it suddenly soaks you into the rabbit hole of excessive joy that is hard to put in words. That just for the ones reading this here thinking the same "what the heck theyre talking about" ...

OK. My 2 cents on Romans earlier words. Thats right, i mightve been influenced by other things than the prechamber, i didnt have a comparison.Let me add, i mentioned the speed of sound to Klaus. Then he mentioned the chambers. And that he had visitors that where so inspired that they copied the whole 1:1 and it didnt sound right. It turned out, they used a classical prechamber. So that ruined it...Still i believe i mightve also heard to 100 squaremeter "hall" that basically lacks all the usual 40-120 cycle room modes that bounce and decay into headache in any normal small room. Thats my assumption.

Next, on the later posts, i was kind of laughing that of all possible paramters you guys first attack the suspension.Well Klaus himself said Goto sounds like that because of its huge magnets.To me that all makes little sense. Suspension and magnet shouldnt be overestimated. Especially that no matter how big you scale any magnet in its physical dimensions... it will not guarantee you any bigger force in the gap reaching the voice coil. Coz thats a lot bound to efficient concentration of flux by hard strong special iron etc, tiny gap size, etc. So if you look at the Goto specs, their magnets (though big looking) are not any stronger than the usual JBL, TAD, Lowther, whatever... 

I was thinking about it though. The general setup of good horn design, many ways to run only very few octaves per driver.... etc prevents a lot of coloration by principle (honk at the bottom, breakup on the top). That explains to me the general cleanliness and lack of any disturbance or coloration.Still, it doesnt play "sterile" like a TAD. I assume 2 things to blame. One is the titanium. That rings way earlier, resulting in very little very short decay resonance already octaves below the typical breakup point of a specific diaphragm size. As they run all very narrow bands like <=2 octaves, and a very constand growth of dia-sizes downwards the bands... it likely distributes gentle resonances across the whole audio spectrum evenly distributed. With a scale so small you cant distinguish a coloration standing out to annoyance, still feel this vibrant something adding a spice to the colors like that rough texture. Almost smooth, yet exciting.
The other thing that may contribute and really sets Goto apart from usual compression drivers, is the "compression".Normal drivers and phaseplug design is so much different than what Goto does. At least nowadays. Goto still uses compression chamber design from WE times like half century ago. They play the whole diaphragm against a flat blocking surface, squeeeze with incredible high compression through some holes. No good in modern perception. That may cause a normal working design that only in case of sudden dynamic peaks of very short & high level create second harmonics and even IM distortion. That would explain the special dynamics in perception.

I do not want to write negative. Just to find a rational explanation.

cheers,Josh
02-12-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 24685
Reply to: 24684
It is all about us labeling own perception.
Josh, I am not sure what you want to say. If you looking to name the reason why you like the sound of Gotos then you are guessing as much as anybody else. I can tell you even more. I very confident that the Goto folks themselves are guessing. I do not think that exist some kind of proper formulations that would responsible for better compression driver sound. It is were then we would not have so many products that do not sound good. Goto, as any other makers have some self-convinced set of knowhow that they stick with and that looks like give them result that make the brand recognizable. If you, they are or anybody else would name the “secret” that they have then they all will be wrong – there is no secret. What does exits is a very delicate balance of multiple and in some instances accidental parameters that in some case do produce good results. The parameters include the geometry of magnate assembly, the type of magnets, and the type of diaphragms the type of plastic suspension, the type of suspension fiber-reinforcement, the quality of gap aliment, the geometry and execution of exit channels, the type and execution of phase-plug id it was used, etc, etc, etc… There are many other factors and all of them in combination make sound. There is no one who can tell you how it should be. People juts do the things, get some kind or result and all that they do is just label result with a trade name. I am absolutely convinced that there is no one who can actively navigate a compression driver design to a specific requested sound. They all are in way accidents. Still, if you ask me to single out the most prominent characteristic then their plastic suspension projected to the diaphragm damping would be it. BTW, it would be “it” in any other compression driver....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-12-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 34
Post ID: 24686
Reply to: 24685
Buy or die
Hi Romy. 
Sure but its nice figuring out main contributor to specific sounds. Inspiring DIY people to change flavors to their prefs. I dont like the buy or die mindset. I just managed after lot of time & money to get my components to copy the vox olympian. Just before assembly i heard this Goto monster and dont want to continue anymore Big Smile Now... i dont want to rush and buy Goto now. 
I rather want to think and analize what contributed to my perception. How to get there. What created this charme. Most likely the things that are totally different to others, rather than things which are the same everywhere.  
But yes, youre right that there are way too many factors to blame one only. Its the harmony of many. Just that you guys started saying "its the suspension"... and i think thats way too simple.  
cheers, Josh
02-12-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 24687
Reply to: 24686
I think you are focusing on wrong things....
 martinshorn wrote:
I just managed after lot of time & money to get my components to copy the vox olympian.  Just before assembly i heard this Goto monster and dont want to continue anymore 
Josh, Josh, Josh… come on! We are not in the business to build the “best playback in the universe” like that celebrated retard from Moscow formulated it. You should not be going from listening room to listening room, from hand to hand, trying to find who get better sound and try to imitate it. What you heard in Olympian was not necessary the Olympian itself and what you herd in in the German playback was not Goto drivers. Do not repeat mistakes that were made by so many unfortunate people in audio – copying external evidences of sonic successes and not aligning them with own spiritual objective. Honestly, from the way how you sound I do not feel that you need to touch audio design for a while and I very much do not mean to be condescending or disrespectful to what you look like trying to do. 
 
A day after tomorrow your cousins from Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin will play in Frankfurt am Main Bruckner 6. In two days they will repeat it in Hamburg. On Feb 18 Frankfurter Museumsorchester will be doing Bruckner 7 in Frankfurt. Forget about your audio. Forget about sound. Listen some Bruckner, make love to whoever you love, raise your kids, be integrated  and embraced with the universe you live and then trey to make you own playback that would reflect your own feeling about you, world, sound, music. There is no drama or tragedy in playback making and you for sure should not be using anybody cable elevator as somebody that you would lose sleep over. A superior result that you witnessed in somebody else playback should not be an obstruction or hitch for your personal interests how sound should sound in your listening room, serving your objective and yout visions how sound should be served. 
 
I do not bring me as an example for imitation but I think I might tell how I feel.. I have an OK sound in my listening room. Anytime when I hear in somebody’s else listening room a “better” sound it does not make me to want destroy my playback or to modify it in accordance to other people reference points. Your playback is your personal item, it is like your toothbrush or underwear, it is no one business what it is and if you see that other people use different then you items then why should you care? 
 
I understand that listening different playbacks sometime extend you understanding of what is possible to do it audio. But it also says that you had limited sense of identity about own actions before you heard other people playback. Let me to give you as association. You have a committed love relationship with wife, girlfriend, or a partners and your feeling you have to this person mollifies you who are. Then you get an exposure to let say $20K per nigh escort girl who in flash demonstrate to you some “reference points” that most likely your partner never will be able to top. What does it mean for your ability to enjoy the relationship with your permanent partner? 
 
 
All, that I am saying is stop looking at anybody. Build a playback that reflects you, satisfies you and that will render for you music in the way how you want it to be. All the rest is rubbish. If you do what I advise you to do then traveling to different places and listening different, even much better, playback inhalations will give you totally different level of pleasures. You will not be worrying how much better or worse another person playback sound but you will be curios what another person listen while he is listening…



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-12-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 36
Post ID: 24688
Reply to: 24687
Couldve told me yesterday ;-)
Hi Romy. You hit some point. But thats half obsolete. I shouldntve tried to gather the stuff for the VO copy. That visit to Klaus opened my eyes. I already switched my priorities a view times. From tonality, then resolution, to latest color (VO) but now i see its the dynamics being the core of enjoying music with your heart.Listening to Klaus Gotos was not some other fancy desireable thing. Maybe it was not clear on which scale that thing is performing "good".Remember your first big bang in audio that woke you up, since that you target good speakers?I feel like before we have been fighting about whos got the better bluetooth boombox, JBL here Vitavox there... whatever. That system from Klaus is that big bang, after which you have no way back. And you cant tell anyone "go do your own boombox"... no way.But youre right in the aspect that ill have to find my own way. First problem (most will share) that i dont have a 100sqm room. So there is only one way to create a similar size-depth-width-and distance of stage: a multicell horn. So I already discovered several potential deviations for a "domestic adaptation". Call that "my way"... Anyhow, most important step for now was to stop all the stuff, just hang out, enjoy some red wine in paris, and do something totally else for a couple of weeks! 
Cheers, Josh
02-13-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 37
Post ID: 24690
Reply to: 24688
All is not lost
Hi Josh,

I think it is all a matter of perspective.  Personally, I would be very surprised if the key elements of the sound of that system that so impressed you is due to the Goto drivers.  There are at least three more important things:  that big room that make it possible to use enormous bass horns without equalisation; Klaus and friends' apparent ability to discriminate sound and their objectives about sound; 30 years of trial and error.  The big horns do not make sense if your room is anything less than enormous.

I am in the late stages of duplicating Macondo and Melquiades DSET.  This project is not about building my 'end of game' acoustic system, rather it is about building the starting point to those ends.  With the right technique and honest appraisal of results and methods I hope to be able to craft Macondo Melquiades to satisfy my circumstances and requirements.  In no way do I expect to be completely happy once I get the first sound and I will have to work hard at it to get the end result, perhaps changing channels and other things along the way.  So perhaps you could treat your Faux Olympian in the same way?  Those components certainly have an awful lot of potential and are likely a very good starting point for your highly dynamic system sans Goto.  The Vitavox stuff is even the building board for Macondo so there seems to be more than one way to get good results from them.  

Cheers,
Anthony
02-13-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 24691
Reply to: 24688
Be careful...
 martinshorn wrote:
I already switched my priorities a view times. From tonality, then resolution, to latest color (VO) but now i see its the dynamics being the core of enjoying music with your heart.
Well, I very much assure you that what you call “dynamics” is not the very last stop in a man priorities. The dynamics to great degree derives from magnetic force projected to moving mass. Goto operates at the top limit of magnetic force the very much as a few other drivers. You can’t magnetize the gap more than 2.4T and it very much might be done by very moderate size of magnets. Some VC assembly, diaphragms and the most important the diaphragms suspension make all difference. TAD has the same 2.4T in gap but the code and the suspicion that make it sound like the driver submerged in silicone lubricant. Goto looks like have it under control, good for them. Anyhow, having just “dynamics”, at least as you understand it now, is a bit barbaric way to demand from audio. The greatest dynamics is wonderful but it should be projected very clever to harmonic slowness in sound. This is very delicate balance and I have seen a lot of audio people who slipped in this endeavor. You can get “great dynamics” by using overly-idle OPT, OTL amps, overly magnetized filed-coils and by a few other things but if all needs to be properly balanced with some dynamic release, some sort of “slowness” that need to be very delicately factor into the sound. Listen live sound, you have no resolution or dynamics… 
 
I do not claim that with Goto dynamics it is impossible to normal sound and do not get that typical for Goto Wagner-style elevated speech. I think it is pososble. If I employed Goto it would be the main fight for me. I do not know how other people, including your Klaus dealt with it. If you want to educate yourself how typically people deal with Goto Dynamics then I do encourage you read at Russian site a long thread of the guy from Moscow. It is superbly educational and I reads like a history of disease and the most spectacular of all that each stage of his meatls audio illness is very good illustrated with audio clips of his sound.  A few year ago he bought all possible compression drivers, including a pile of Gotos and brainlessly put random drivers in random horns, record at his phone the sound he got. He has bad taste, bad hands, methodologically disturbed and has a lot of other problems and I do encourage you to listen the sound that he demonstrates at his clips. This is very typical sound from ignorant people with magnetically overcharged drivers. Your infatuation with dynamics and resolution might very much lead to it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-13-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,549
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 24692
Reply to: 24690
Another Kid?
 anthony wrote:
Those components certainly have an awful lot of potential and are likely a very good starting point for your highly dynamic system sans Goto.  The Vitavox stuff is even the building board for Macondo so there seems to be more than one way to get good results from them.

If you would like to make a conversion or experiments with Goto drivers then it would be a bit difficult to you in context of the frame you chose to use. The Vitavox drivers that you use have diaphragms in back but Goto have diaphragms in front. It is not hard to pick up some Goto drivers, they show up from time to time at used market and cost no more than anything else but to accommodate the time aliment with them is a bitch. Also, Goto have much narrow bandwidth and MF needs to be split by upper MF and Lower MF. So, all together to try Gotos would require to re-architect the whole system integration. The second is loading. Goto always stay with slow opening exponential horns that are horrible in my view. To load the Gotos in contemporary fast opening horns (Tratrix, Lahorns…) gives looks like better result but to a degree and it provides lower throat resistance and with ultra-light Goto diaphragms it feels the diaphragms are less front-loaded then they should be. The result is overly-fast sound… So, it is very possible that if someone want to experiment with Goto then it should not be in context of any current playback but starting a dedicated test playback specifically made to experiment with Goto drivers.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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