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In the Forum: Horn-Loaded Speakers
In the Thread: The 5-ways from Germany.
Post Subject: Small misunderstandings :)Posted by martinshorn on: 2/5/2018
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Folding introduce a bunch of resonating chambers and cost audio coloration in most of the cases that do MASK OUT the transient dynamics but folding itself should not have an impact to dynamics itself.

Might be the point here, masking (decay) reduces transients perceptional. Lets not be too picky.I very much perceive Klaus as an intuitive designer, not worrying about the mathematical explanation in the first place.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

All octaves with horns, made in same style? I am sorry, it is nonsense in my view. The lower you get in frequency the slower horn opening should be, I will stick with this rule. There is absolutely nothing that demands all change to be the same opening rate. For sure when the horns in the same style it does serves great optical benefit. You Klaus looks like did made the horns of the same style. Good for him and I am glad it works for him. However, there is absolutely no need to declare it as some kind of mandatory rule.

This is not to be understood as a visual feature. He very much refers to the tractrix function on one hand. And also about using round shapes.As you see in the lowest horn it definitely compromises some mouth size actually, he admits that. So it is a slower opening horn there, but basically due to size limitations.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Again, I do not agree with it. It is good that you do not use word synergy and the audio reviewers love to use. The section of the best driver in each individual channel does include the assurance that the drivers will be working together and should be evaluated together. Furthermore if proper evaluation is made then the selection of the “best drivers” should ONLY woks as complimentary pairs. There is absolutely no reason why the best drivers would be from a same barrel. 

In general, im talking out of memory, plus translation, free style. So be careful with taking my single words too serious. I wont repeat all this in front of a judge Wink Touchy thing, i hope i quote the most correctly to get "the rough idea" of what he meant.So, he definitely put a high priority on a collaboration harmony. And it is very obvious to hear that everything plays together and nothing stands out in its performance. For me, picking best in each job, was (likely for most people too) the standard. Till i got inspired here, to not only select for example a tweeter by its tweeting performance but also evaluate more how it would play with the rest. One tweeter that you may like, could not necessarily be the best in your horn system. And once disqualified in setup A, still it could be "the tweeter" in your totally different setup B some years later. Honestly, listening to the whole harmony of that composition, I feel this is a very inspiring thought!And not slightly, i think this was maybe the number 1 of his most important design philosophies!
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Good for him but in my books this is the biggest flow in his system. The problem is that he use very fragile drivers that fry like crazy, ask any Goto distributor and they will let you know that true statistics how many tweeter and MD drivers they replace diaphragms. Goto has very light and thin voice coils and they are spectacular. They are also unfortunately very fragile for current handling. This is where the “preferable” 4th order come from. In my view 4th order has too much damage, particularly with speaker level filtration.

Sure the filter steepness and XO point have to be seen together. In my view, only the 90 cycles XO on the lowest comp. driver was questionable.However, we listened very loud and it remained absolutely confident and laid back. So it seems to work well enough.We couldve turned it up another 10dB, but that wouldve been definately no joy for more than a minute.He said, in earlier days that compression driver even ran down to 20 cycles in a bigger horn, before the 15 inchers existed.So even that worked. But there it was definately stressed, limited and upper bass coloured by too big horn.
 
 Romy the Cat wrote:

...in my view we do not hear amplitude but phase.  With first order in LF we are much more involve room into play and we smear phase anomalies over speakers and room response. I am not insisting that I am right, I saying that it is debatable......
Possible. Would you be so kind to share what subjective methodology/principle you use to recognize “noticing group delay artefacts of phase problems” in LF.

Well there i have the opposite opinion Smile We do hear amplitude, not phase. We actually even hear the transient shape in amplitude terms, rather than the single tones amplitude. Imho our ear is not designed to be phase sensitive, unless you so excessively deform phase till it re-shapes the transients amplitude.I hear it the same way. Having made experiments to train my ear to phase artefacts without touching the amplitude i have my statement:Phase does not change tonality nor stage or room projection. Phase exclusively influences transient perception. In the heights, it can create metallic sharpness, while in lows smears initially crisp drum hits from "TAM" sound into a "T...ammmmmmm" (bouncy, rolling, fat, undefined).
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Sorry, I did not get this. Did you mean the back chamber? No one use phase plugs for 15 inch drivers. 

Well, i did Smile I perceived a phase-alike artefact of slow softness when the pre-chamber is too big (>5 liters... a 15 inch cone already got 8 liter volume of air within its diaphragm surface to the mounting frame...)A phase plug eliminates that prechamber "air bag" that softens the transient attack. But the phase plug also increases compression, made it sound a little stressed. So i did not know how to solve this.Klaus idea is great here and it sonically combines the best - let me show it via picture otherwise one cannot imagine:

This also explains the isobaric setup of both drivers.They use a conventional closed rear cabine. And radiate properly loaded into the horn.
cheersJosh

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