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05-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 21
Post ID: 18145
Reply to: 18143
People want(ed) TAD's
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and especially "perfectionists" markets like Germany. Sound is of a secondary importance. I bet the new driver from Cesarro will be field coil driver because that's what peoplewant NOW. They want "the best" and field coil is now the best. Roman , something tells me that you did not experiment with Tad (4001)driver at all simply discharging it after a short trial. It is totaly unsuited to tractrix horn and works  in 350-2k range. To use it like Cesarro did (if their horn is tractrix ) is  simply a bad idea and would probably require a tricky filtering and still is probably dead sounding. Kevin Scott with his Pinokio nose horn found maybe optimal solution for
TAD driver.Rgrds, W
05-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 18146
Reply to: 18145
Cesarro, field coil and TADs.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Wojtek wrote:
and especially "perfectionists" markets like Germany. Sound is of a secondary importance. I bet the new driver from Cesarro will be field coil driver because that's what peoplewant NOW. They want "the best" and field coil is now the best. Roman , something tells me that you did not experiment with Tad (4001)driver at all simply discharging it after a short trial. It is totaly unsuited to tractrix horn and works  in 350-2k range. To use it like Cesarro did (if their horn is tractrix ) is  simply a bad idea and would probably require a tricky filtering and still is probably dead sounding. Kevin Scott with his Pinokio nose horn found maybe optimal solution for TAD driver.Rgrds, W

I am not sure that Cesarro will go for field coil. I do not know how they think and what they are trying to accomplish. It very much might be field coil, juts because field coil is less expensive to make and more profitable to market. Neither field coil or new perm driver has no assurance or indication about the sound that it does, so there is no reason to speculate about it. The fact that Cesarro do want to departure from TADs is a good sight in my book but the new Cesarro driver might be even worse than TAD or to take Cesarro to the direction that might be wrong. Right or wrong – who knows? I am not intimately familiar with Cesarro in order to predict this next move.

About your defending TAD. Yes, you are correct I experimented and discarded with TAD after short trial and then only heard TAD in numerous installations of other people. As now I would not trust to myself 10 years back (when I was dealing with TADs myself) and I do not feel that other people who use TADs did get the best from TAD.  Why do I say it? Become I do want that anybody feel that my disregard of TAD shell mean anything. It is not about passing judgment but about an individual be able to accomplish what he is want to accomplish with sound unit this or that driver. If you or Kevin Scott, or whoever else were able to be happy using TADs than good for you guys. Any driver, absolutely ANY single driver requires working with it. You feel that you made TAD to work for whatever you were trying to achieve? I only appreciate it and I wish you share your experience and your objectives. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 18147
Reply to: 18135
Silbatone electronics.
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The el`Ol’s comments about Cessaro did not find a proper electronics to drive this TAD made me to ask: what electronics Silbatone uses? It never was part of attention of anybody and regardless if Silbatone demonstrate god or bad sound it might be interesting to know what they are trying to do from electronic perspective. It is kind of hard to assess what they do as I do not know what GIP drivers want o have as amplification, so only god knows how Silbatone drive them.

It looks like Silbatone produce own amplification and this site list a few models claiming “designs, parts quality is far beyond most commercially produced amplifiers” and “once-in-a-lifetime amplifier”. Thises statements we kind of never heard before from audio manufacture….  It looks like classic design and classic contemporary Hi-Fi implementation. They have SET and PP amps, have own preamp. The amps with all expected tube and as I understand they choke-loaded driver stage. I wonder if anybody heard them and if anything known about sonic inclinations of the Silbatone electronics. Also, Silbatone as commercial operation (if they do have any commercial traffic, which is not known) is nothing more than the Korean enthusiast who pays the bill and the blabbering idiot Joe Roberts who runs across the web like wounded in ass hyena and drooling saliva about his affiliation with  Silbatone. This type of alliance typically is not the setting where electronics is built. Most likely Silbatone outsources design and production of own electronics. I say “outsources” as this amps do not look like they were made in singular version just for own use but they rather are commercial, batch-made amps.  So, I wonder who made them for Silbatone…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 18149
Reply to: 18147
Amplifier design
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As I understand it the Silbatone amplifiers are, in part, the work of JC Morrison. Although very nicely made, its hard to judge if they have any serious intention of selling them. I don't think there is any commercial imperative to do that just as there doesn't seem to be any in freighting WE15's half way around the world. I get the impression that the owner just enjoys doing it and he can. I appreciated the opportunity to hear the system.  Never at any point did you sense that you were being sold anything. It was almost making the point that, 'you are unlikely to own this or even have the space for it but here it is anyway'. Certainly while I was in the room, and I went in a few times, they never made mention of the electronics and focussed entirely on the speakers. Most of the time they played the WE15, augmented by a large subwoofer carrying 2 x 30" EV units and 2 x 15". Each WE15 was being used with original WE555 units and carried a 597 above. They said the WE15 was originally intended to run between around 90 Hz and 7 KHz.

The rest of the time they played the smaller system whcih used newly produced GIP 594 mid drivers and new 597 replicas above. I'm not sure what the bass drivers were in those speaker or how they were loaded. The GIP drivers sounded fine although I think their implementation could be more interesting.

They played a wide range of music from Led Zeppelin to Maria Callas.


Also at the show were the LM Audio drivers another company (from China) making replica WE units. Sadly these weren't being played.
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 25
Post ID: 18150
Reply to: 18147
Silbatone electronics
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I found the Silbatone electronics was somewhere between the neutral sounding electronics Cessaro used and the super-warm electronics at the Anima room. About going away from tractrix: The Anima horn with the little paper cone driver looked more like exponential, with tractrix on top for the tweeter. One can say that Anima sounds muddy if one belong to the ones who like it very precise, but one can't say the mishmash of horn geometries sounds inconsistent.
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 18151
Reply to: 18149
Morrison, Silbatone, GIP , EV30....
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Thanks, Guy. JC Morrison? I am not familiar with this character well. All that I know about him the he pop up usually around Joe Roberts and they perfume act of public saliva liking. It does not say anything about his amps, however, neither about his objective and his design capacity. It is in way say that Silbatone did not progress with idea of rational, good and intelligent contemporary design. The 3-model that they introduces a few year back I think was a very good move but it look like they did not progress in that and went back to demo WE fragmentary. Well, it is what it is, the pimp Roberts love to facility his white-trash parties with beer-drinking ceremonies being surrounded by loudspeakers that someone else paid for - as long it stimulated his Korean partners I guess it is fine.  

I wonder if Silbatone would go for their own drivers. They employ GIP drivers and they might be fine driver but they are not accessible. I wonder if this Chinese LM Audio would do something that Silbatone would use and that would open Silbatone for reasonable price range available for public. Silbatone speakers are $10K-$20K acoustic systems but they can go there if the use some ridicules overpriced drivers that are insisted to be made in limited quantities, few per year.

BTW, this “large subwoofer carrying 2 x 30" EV” – I did not see it on the pictures. Was it sealed/infinite or it was in the way how the fool love to use it – in open baffle?

Rgs,
Romy teh Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 27
Post ID: 18152
Reply to: 18150
Pro drivers
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I wonder how far one could get to the traditional horn ideal (low-ranging compression driver plus some metal shimmer on top) with a BMS neodymium pure mid driver and a Celestion/Eighteensound/Beyma with aluminium diaphragm.
BTW, something with beryllium has been announced by Eighteensound.
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 18153
Reply to: 18151
More Silbatone
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Besides the single driver Aporia (which I haven't heard) I don't think Silbatone has made any speakers. So they don't 'employ' GIP drivers.  I think GIP is a separate Japanese company who have just been invited to participate at these German shows. They brought two of their own speaker systems and placed them alongside the WE system.

I met JC Morrison at the Euro Triode Festival in 2010 and he gave an interesting talk about getting a good result from the D3a. I think the Silbatone  pre-amp uses an LCR type equaliser with D3a's and a transformer volume control, but like the power amps, they deliberately won't make more than a handful of pieces.

The bass system had the two pairs of drivers facing each other into a 12" wide 6ft tall 'slot'. The drivers were open to the rear. I think this had been put together just prior to the show.

I get the impression that the venture is like a travelling museum to demonstrate the WE speakers. The owner, who I think was conducting the demonstration, did say that the WE15's were probably the third best speaker he had but that the better two would not have fitted through the doorway.

05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 18154
Reply to: 18153
The predictable attitude.
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 guy sergeant wrote:
The bass system had the two pairs of drivers facing each other into a 12" wide 6ft tall 'slot'. The drivers were open to the rear. I think this had been put together just prior to the show.
Ah, the slot-loaded, facing dipole with a baffle! I truly do not like those types of applications and only God know why people keep doing this foolishness. They see those things on photographs and drawings from 30s and the keep replicate it. Why don’t they make fire by hand-drilling dry wood? All of it just an indication the they have more loyalty to concepts then respect to actual results – the attitude that is very predictable and very unfortunate in that crowd.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 18155
Reply to: 18154
Bass results
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I heard far worse bass performance in a good number of other rooms at the show. If the intention was to give people an experience of how large scale music/sound reproduction was or could have been 70 or 80 years ago, then the arrangement they chose was probably quite successful. A modern LF system would have been inappropriate.

I do think that was the intention. People do seem to struggle with the idea that these people aren't really selling anything. I find that aspect quite funny. 

I suppose if you liked the results enough and were determined to make such a system for yourself, then you could buy drivers from GIP or LM Audio (or of course original units) and then build the horns. I found it very interesting to listen to but I wouldn't particularly want to copy it. 
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 18156
Reply to: 18155
Cesarro vs Silbatone
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 guy sergeant wrote:
If the intention was to give people an experience of how large scale music/sound reproduction was or could have been 70 or 80 years ago, then the arrangement they chose was probably quite successful. A modern LF system would have been inappropriate.

Hm, this is not what I would agree. In my view there is no such a thing as vintage or modern sonic result. There is better and worse sound and it is not necessarily results to the sound 70 ago or to the sound of our days.
 guy sergeant wrote:
I do think that was the intention. People do seem to struggle with the idea that these people aren't really selling anything. I find that aspect quite funny. 

Guy, I do not think you are accurate in it. I do presume that this Korean fellow who owns Silbatone has no commercial interests. But the people who do not have any interests do not try to prove anything to anybody. It is not the position that their chatterbox sales-pimp has.  I do think that they do not “selling anything” but not because they do not want but because I do not think that they can.  Pay attention that whatever Silbatone and the Companies associates do does not become a consciousness of audio design.  They are sort of freak show – one might observe the result and take note, or even get an inspiration but they do not deliver a solution, at least the solution that worth consider.  Cesarro or Jeffey Jackson a few years back (before he was fucked up by Joe Robert metastases) did progress the concept. Silbatone is unfortunately just hiding in closet. Do they sell anything or now is irrelevant in my view.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 18157
Reply to: 18156
Progress
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I don't think Silbatone has any obligation to 'progress' a concept in the same way that an art gallery or museum has no obligation to modify or improve on its exhibits. They are just showing what is or rather what was.

For what it's worth, I do think that the pre-amp contains some interesting ideas. Someone somewhere has allowed for investment in the materials necessary to make good wound components and, from what could be heard at the ETF, the pre-amp did deliver the performance that it promised. But, as they don't seem that keen to sell many it's largely irrelevant other than as an exercise in what might be done. I think it probably would stand comparison with most other pre-amps.  With regard to the power amps, I don't know enough about them to know whether the same can be said.

It is interesting to have the opportunity to hear an old speaker system such as the WE15 alongside supposedly the best other commercial offerings albeit at a show.  The Cessaro room was just along the corridor but I didn't find that engaged me at all. I can appreciate the thinking behind it and the quality of its construction but as a system I couldn't enjoy it.  On the other hand, I did think the Greek horns were working quite well.

I wasn't inspired by many of the other systems there. The Ocean Way speakers had some promise perhaps.

I'd like to see Silbatone attempting to make a large scale 'modern' speaker, perhaps even using the GIP drivers if those are what they like and addressing the shortcomings of the WE designs. They have the resources to do it but whether they will or not, I don't know.
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 33
Post ID: 18158
Reply to: 18156
The Mystic (On the Road Again)
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All this reminds me of any number of semi-secret repositories of "arcane knowledge" that may eventually be found by the relentless, dilligent seeker.  I do see this as a way of marketing something to people that will be pre-sold by the time they figure out how to buy.  Finally finding such a "library" (or Master, or Whatever...), is anyone ever truly surprised by the number of people that arrived earlier, or by the sadly dim collective mentality of the successful aspirants?  These days you can just google Hermes Tres Magistis, or Rosenkreuz, etc., etc., etc.

Do the people who worship these old speakers (and even the old electronics) ever play the old recordings through them?  If not, this seems like a missed opportunity.  Some of the old records actually are VERY fine.

Paul S
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 18159
Reply to: 18158
Original use
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I did wonder about what recordings would have been used through these speakers back in the late 20's. The electronic recording of music only began in around 1926, prior to that the recordings were entirely acoustic. (although some of those acoustic recordings are very good) Cinema sound would have been in its infancy and a bandwidth of 90 Hz to 7 KHz might have been perceived to be enough, for a while anyhow. I doubt that anyone would have been using the speakers in a domestic setting.

In Munich they did play some rather nice older recordings from the 50's at least.


EDIT. Not everyone liked the WE speakers. I spoke with several people including a couple of HiFi reviewers who thought they were terrible. But alot did like them and it is really the obligation of other manufacturers to come up with something that is demonstrably better.
05-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 35
Post ID: 18161
Reply to: 18159
Mecenas
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well maybe the rich Korean fellow just wants to advance the knowledge of audio as he knows it, by droping a bunch of cash at it, which never hurts!
They claim that Silabtone will sound like WE...pf  I read somehwere that they use Amorphous cores and silver windings  and that is the only way to get close, not better, to the original sound of the WE amplifiers,  which makes think, what were the original WE amps made of then?  And what makes them so hard to duplicate,  is it just the badge, the fashion, the aging of the parts: 
It seems that the GIP 555 does better the original WE 555, as accepted by the poeple that use the WE 15A, also the Italian reproductions made by Aldo seem to be at least as nice as the original WE 15A,  and he also makes some great vintage looking amps and preamps based on what sounds good from the original WE designs and getting rid of the extra baggage, which seems a good idea!

What is very interesting is the fact that the WE 15A is supposed to be a "Full Range Horn"  they claim it goes from 90 hz to 7khz,  but getting closer to the data it is more like 100 hz to 3 khz,  which sounds more terrestrial,  they have a must tweeter going in from soemwhere between 4 khz to 5 khz, and sub woofer just filling in, it seems open baffle sounds better with that horn.  I havent heard the system myself yet,  but have heard a lot of horns, even compression drivers doing 100 hz up to 15 khz and, while it is very nice, it is not as magical as all the claims.  Size does matter and I guess the huge horns will have something to say...

05-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
gordan
Posts 15
Joined on 01-29-2009

Post #: 36
Post ID: 18175
Reply to: 18159
Martion Orgon 2012?
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has anyone had a chance to peep into martion room? from some of the regular visitors of munich fair, i've heard that a sound quality in their room with their flagship system (4-way horns with 4 amps and active XO) was much much better than earlier years - and easily preferred over both cessaro and avantgarde presentation. 
guy, anyone?
05-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 37
Post ID: 18176
Reply to: 18175
Less Martion sound
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As far as I remember the former presentations in the latest version there is less softening by the amps without sacrificing tonal neutrality and the digitally controlled bass section has less problems with the room. Mr. Martion always plays a very broad range of music to show that the Orgon is not built for a certain purpose. Kitschy little girl with a guitar, jazz, samba band with large drums in original level, chorus, large orchestra, chamber music, disco sound for grown-ups. People who think SETs with 10% second order harmonic distortion sounds more "musical" probably listen to the little girl only.
After all a clear step ahead that makes the distance to the other horns even larger.
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