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10-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 21
Post ID: 17210
Reply to: 17209
There will be no weakness in this frame. Or it will belong in a bonfire.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,

First of all, as things stand in the sketch, the mast sits atop the legs, a horribly precarious position given the weight that will be applied away from the centre of mass of the structure. This sketch is an early one, just to give an idea of overall appearance, and I should not really have posted it given the weakness that would be inherent to that design, as you quite correctly point out.

The mast will in fact sink in between the two legs (the point of the cut-outs near the base of the mast) and it goes without saying that Russ will do what's necessary to strengthen the mast in the vertical plane. I have told Russ to make the mast firmly fixed enough to hold a total weight of 200kg at a distance of 50-80cm away from the centre of mass. I like the bracing that you make use of in your frame and if Russ feels it is necessary or helpful, I would be very happy to have these fitted to my frame. Thanks for the suggestion.

This frame cannot be weak and it will not be weak. If it is, I will make a lovely bonfire out of the whole thing without a moment's hesitation and the closest it will get to my place in France will be the smell of the croissant I will toast on it as it burns merrily away in my back garden here in the UK! I have two little ones. Their safety is of paramount importance and comes before any stupid audio project of mine.

Best regards
Rakesh

12-06-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JKnechtel
Posts 4
Joined on 12-07-2011

Post #: 22
Post ID: 17486
Reply to: 17210
Location, location, location
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rakesh,
I think your in the UK, amiright?  I see you are.  Never mind, was going to ask who your woodworker was.   I need to find someone similar here.  If your willing to share your plans for you stands, let me know.  I really like the look of the stand idea you have.   Still brainstorming here.   Josh
12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 23
Post ID: 17488
Reply to: 17486
Latest pictures of LVFrame and UB115 horns nearing completion
fiogf49gjkf0d

Josh,

Hope you have time enjoying your horns and new production Fane 8ms when not busy getting our world into more financial woe! Your query reminds me that it has been a long time I have not updated this thread and I am posting some of the latest pictures detailing the most recent development on the LVframe and UB115 horns. I try to share my time between the UK and France but it is true that Russ, my hornmaker maestro is based in the UK, half-way between Leeds and Sheffield. Still, if you are looking for a stress free solution to your need for a frame, I would suggest you contact Russ to discuss your needs.

The red you see in the photos is much darker in reality but flash photography makes that red looks lighter than it really is. One can see at the link below the Garnet Symphony 2 colour by Dulux, which is a deep red I was looking for to remind me of fine ruby red which I will also use to paint one feature wall in the room where the Rakeshorns system will eventually be in use: http://www.dulux.co.uk/colour/garnet_symphony_2

So here are the very latest pictures:


Rakeshorns- cut-out to fit supporting slat.jpg
Cut-out in horn for supporting adjustable rail

Rakeshorns - Panzerholz adjustable support.jpg
Adjustable Panzerholz rail

Rakeshorns - L & V cradle.jpg
Panzerholz rail sited in front rail on frame

Rakeshorns - side view 2.jpg
Supporting rail unobtrusive but enables both front to back and height adjustments

Rakeshorns - Mast with sample rods.jpg
Mast with sample rods, black anodised one will be used (to be calibrated - somehow)
Deep Red inside horn more like actual colour of horns once three more coats applied

Rakeshorns - Horn on frame.jpg
Nice feature: how curve at the front of leg echoes the curve of the horn

All in all, the pictures above give a good idea of the number of features that one might want to incorporate in the design of a frame for a multi-channel acoustic system such as the one I am working on. There is still a long way to go although I have made progress in other aspects of this project but these will have to wait for their own threads in due course.

Best regards
Rakesh

12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 24
Post ID: 17489
Reply to: 17210
LVFrame strength: Never mind Russell Crowe, Russ himself can swing off these with ease
fiogf49gjkf0d


 oxric wrote:
Hi Romy,

First of all, as things stand in the sketch, the mast sits atop the legs, a horribly precarious position given the weight that will be applied away from the centre of mass of the structure. This sketch is an early one, just to give an idea of overall appearance, and I should not really have posted it given the weakness that would be inherent to that design, as you quite correctly point out.

The mast will in fact sink in between the two legs (the point of the cut-outs near the base of the mast) and it goes without saying that Russ will do what's necessary to strengthen the mast in the vertical plane. I have told Russ to make the mast firmly fixed enough to hold a total weight of 200kg at a distance of 50-80cm away from the centre of mass. I like the bracing that you make use of in your frame and if Russ feels it is necessary or helpful, I would be very happy to have these fitted to my frame. Thanks for the suggestion.

This frame cannot be weak and it will not be weak. If it is, I will make a lovely bonfire out of the whole thing without a moment's hesitation and the closest it will get to my place in France will be the smell of the croissant I will toast on it as it burns merrily away in my back garden here in the UK! I have two little ones. Their safety is of paramount importance and comes before any stupid audio project of mine.

Best regards
Rakesh



Even after writing the above, I will confess to a slight doubt creeping in my mind following Romy's suggestion that the frame might be too weak as I sort of agreed that on paper it could appear that without some strengthening plate as he suggested the frame could not support the mast as this would in turn be supporting some heavy loads acting away from the centre of mass of the structure. So I told Russ that a requirement for me was that a grown-up adult male, say Russell Crowe, in full battle suit as in the opening scene of 'Gladiator' the movie, should be able to swing off a rod attached in the uppermost hole in the mast at a distance of 1m from the mast.

So that exactly what Russ did, except that Russell Crowe having chickened out at the last moment,  it behoved to Russ the brave creator pf my LVframe himself to bravely and selflessly offer himself to the experiment borne from my sick imagination. Here is what he had to say on coming out of this experiment with all limbs intact (e-mail slightly edited for reasons having to do with the relevant patents, intellectual property and copyright laws that protect all work that issue from Russ' legendary workshop):


Hi Rakesh...
 
I did a quick test of the strength of the stands this morning, I happen to have a 28mm diameter iron bar in the workshop so i used this in the top hole and supported my weight (65kg) at a distance of 1m from the mast (practically above the end of the legs) and there is absolutely no movement whatsoever! even by bouncing around the only movement is the iron bar bending and slight wobble as a result of my uneven workshop floor! so yes you could say it is strong enough! and there will be no need for mandatory safety helmets in the living room.
 
 
Russ.

For those who are more conversant with the arts of woodworking, I hereby unveil the ingenious system devised by Russ to support the mast and horns above which obviated the need for a supporting steel plate.

Rakeshorns - Mast support design.jpg


Best regards
Rakesh
12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 25
Post ID: 17490
Reply to: 17486
Reflections on design process of LVFrame
fiogf49gjkf0d
 JKnechtel wrote:
Rakesh,
I think your in the UK, amiright?  I see you are.  Never mind, was going to ask who your woodworker was.   I need to find someone similar here.  If your willing to share your plans for you stands, let me know.  I really like the look of the stand idea you have.   Still brainstorming here.   Josh


Elsewhere Josh also wrote:

 JKnechtel wrote:

I have large midbass horns and midrange horns made by elevenhorns.   I am still trying to figure out a stand idea.  I've read many creative ideas but I still haven't found the idea that inspires me.   I do like the all wood direction that Rakeshorn took.    I know Romy went metal based on aesthetics of not seeing the stands.  Personally I kind of like the aesthetics of Jesses'.   
Basically this thread is just a request for ideas, brainstorming as it was.






Hi Josh,

In response to your query, I was nearly tempted to start a new thread devoted to my frames as I think they are close to being so perfectly modular as to be able to accommodate most designs of multi-channel horn systems. It required a fair amount of thinking of what was required and I spent over the past few months several hours discussing my requirements with Russ Collinson. What was essential for making my frame design a success was having someone who could discuss ideas and quickly distinguish between the plausible and the impractical.

As for plans, whilst I am normally happy to provide plans, drawings and inventory list of everything I do for public use because I do not make a living out of this hobby, I would rather not do so on this occasion as the final result is so much the responsibility of the person with the real talent with wood and that is Russ. A design like this is inherently dangerous unless you know what you are doing and I do not have the slightest clue how Russ managed to get the strength required without the use of the triangular metal plates as Romy recommended and as I myself felt might be necessary.

In anything I do, I try to have as complete control as possible over every single design element. I will say this much however in the case of the design of Rakeshorns, especially of the LVFrame. Some design elements I left to Russ’s entire discretion and he came up with his own solutions. The two most important ones had to do with the strength of the frame structure and the adjustability of the UB115 horns in the horizontal and vertical planes. I like to be in full control of design and normally would never have left such important design decisions to the discretion of absolutely anyone. Russ gave me the confidence from the start that I could leave even the most critical decisions in his capable hands. With Russ, I went over what I required (in the case of the frame primarily safety for the children, and elegant minimalist looks and in the case of the cradle, fair amount of adjustability whilst being unobtrusive) and only today I have finally understood the solutions he came up with. I am astounded how his design here answered every single requirement of mine and managed to look better than I would have dared imagine possible.

In the end I decided not to start that new thread because I also think that one cannot dissociate the design of the frame from that of the entire acoustic system. In the photos that I have posted, you will have seen that there are a number of other ideas which are alluded to (see the rod samples), which will further be incorporated in the horns that will be custom made for this frame. I do however have other simpler ready-made horns which can be accommodated within this design without too much fuss.

In your search for the perfect frame, the most important requirement  is an ally, someone who is both an individual with the right skill set, but also a friend who will not mind discussing ideas and providing you with a harsh dose of reality every now and then. For me that was Russ.  Although he is somewhat a long way from you, I know that shipping abroad is actually not as bad as it sounds even for these horns and frames. I was surprised by just how decently priced shipping was when someone from Australia asked Russ to quote shipping of the large horns to his address there. My advice would be to talk to Russ and he will know exactly how best to modify the design of the LVFrame to accommodate your gorgeous horns by Jeffrey Jackson. I am quite willing to help you design the supporting rig to go with the frame if you like what I have designed although it is not implemented as yet  (for free of course).

About ‘brainstorming,’ although the term works well in most professional fields, I am slightly concerned about this approach applied to the design of a frame for an acoustic system like the one you have in mind. The suggestion is that a group of fairly disparate people with different requirements and priorities will come up with ideas and solutions from which the initiator will be able to pick the most promising ones. I am not too sure whether that approach would have worked in my case and I am very happy that I was able to approach the whole subject using my own understanding of my requirements as my only guide to the final design. Being clear about my requirements meant it was not possible on occasion to get distracted when other solutions presented themselves as I could see in a fraction of a second how they did not fit in with some of these requirements.

Josh, I do not know if any of this long post is any help to you or anyone else considering embarking on a similar project but I hope that having just gone through the still unfinished design of the UB115 horns and LVFrame that my reflections on my recent endeavours might be of some value.

Best regards
Rakesh
12-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 26
Post ID: 17491
Reply to: 17490
What's in a name? The LV in 'LVFrame' and Russo da Collinsoni's job application letter!
fiogf49gjkf0d

As with all our ventures in life, the measure of our success is in hindsight what would have I have done differently. Although it is fairly early days for me yet, at the moment, if I went back to the drawing board and had to start again, I would have ended up with exactly the same design. Of course, I would have had the main mast taller so there would be no joint at the end but the problem was my log of timber which could not provide me with the right length of mast and legs, given that it was riddled with old 6 inches long bolts which made the task of salvaging usable lengths of timber incredibly hard. I came that close to calling it quits but then Russ again saved the day!

As some of you may know, I called this frame the LVFrame because of its use of this incredibly hard wood, Lignum Vitae (latin for ‘wood of life’). In addition, you will see that the shape of the frame is actually the result of joining the two ‘L’ formed by the mast and two legs which then spread in the shape of a ‘V’ which is the cradle support for the UB115 horn. See picture below to see what I mean:

Rakeshorns - L & V cradle.jpg

 Today I realised that actually the name I chose was particularly suitable for another reason I could not have foreseen when I embarked on this project and came up with the acronym months ago. Only last week, I managed to obtain tickets for the sold-out and once in a lifetime exhibition looking at the paintings of Leonardo Da Vinci at the National Gallery in London, whilst the polymath genius was under the patronage of the Duke of Milan, Ludovico Sforza (‘Il Moro’). In some of his drawings detailing his preparatory work to his portraits, I am sure I saw sketches very reminiscent of what I and Russ have been been working on for a few months now except that we managed to finish what we set out to accomplish whereas Da Vinci did not complete 90% of the work and projects he started.  If I were to write a letter (the translated original letter by Leonardo Da Vinci from latin can be seen here, http://www.yuricareport.com/Institute/DaVinciLetter.html ) from Russ applying for that fateful position at the ‘Moro’s court in Milan, it would read as follows:

Letter from Russo Da Collinsoni
to the Duke of Milan Applying for a Position

Having, most illustrious lord, seen and considered the experiments of all those who pose as masters in the art of inventing instruments of war, and finding that their inventions differ in no way from those in common use, I am emboldened, without prejudice to anyone, to solicit an appointment of acquainting your Excellency with certain of my secrets.

1. I can construct  a frame which is very light, strong and portable, with which to pursue and defeat the enemy; which resists fire or assault, yet is easily removed and placed in position by means of the Levina castor wheels from Germanium. It is made of a combination of the most advanced materials known to mankind, some of which have not yet been discovered.
 

2. In case of a siege, the mast of the LVFrame can be cut into the shape of pontoons or a  series of aluminium or titanium rods can be affixed in strategically positioned and equally spaced holes to make scaling ladders and other similar contrivances.

3. If by reason of the elevation or the strength of its position a place cannot be bombarded, I can add extensions to this LVframe so it is in position to demolish every fortress if its foundations have not been set on stone.

4.With a simple modification,  I can also easily transform the UB115 and other horns into cannons which are light and easy of transport, of varyingcaliber, range, mobility, range, rate of fire, angle of fire and fireower  and which will cause great terror to the enemy, so that they suffer heavy loss and confusion.

5. I can noiselessly transport my LVFrame using its revolutionary polyurethane tread that isolates it from all enemy vibrations, to any prescribed point subterranean passages either straight or winding, over which my LVframe will silently glide move to achieve its most optimum position to bombard the enemy.

6. I can make armoured wagons which can be carried on the cradle of my LVFrame for carrying artillery, which shall break through the most serried ranks of the enemy, and so open a safe passage for my Low Frequency 18" driver based heavy artillery.

7. If occasion should arise, I can construct guns and mortars and light ordnance in shape both ornamental and useful and different from those in common use.

8. When it is impossible to use cannon I can with some simple modifications transform my LVFrame into a catapult, mangonels, trabocchi, and other instruments of admirable efficiency not in general use to which can be attached some heavy Alnico, Ferrite or Neodynium magnets with which to bambard and confuse the enemy—in short, as the occasion requires I can supply infinite means of attack and defense.
 

9. And if the fight should take place upon the sea I can attach to the mast of my LVFrame a superb sail that will carry your warship over the seas to seek out and destroy the enemy navy.
 

10. In time of peace, I believe that I can give you as complete satisfaction as anyone else in the ability to listen to any music that your mood fancies as my horns are capable of reproducing all beautiful music that you care to name at the touch of a button in places public and private.

Moreover, I would undertake the commission of the LVFrame, which shall endure with immortal glory and eternal honour the auspicious memory of your father and of the illustrious house of Sforza.—
And if any of the aforesaid things should seem to anyone impossible or impracticable, I offer myself as ready to make trial of them in your park or in whatever place shall please your Excellency, to whom I commend myself with all possible humility.


Russo Da Collinsoni of Barnsley

As you can tell, I am not slightly proud of this frame and its chosen nomenclature!
 
Best regards
Rakesh
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,966
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 17492
Reply to: 17488
Chicken legs… in barbeque souse?
fiogf49gjkf0d

It looks like nice your builder doe for you a nice work. The whole design is not what I personally would look in frame as I have slightly different preferences. To me the whole concept of the bottom legs, what I call chicken legs, is not elegant and remind me the character from old Russian folklore tales: Cabin on chicken legs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=1498#1498

Cabin_chicken_legs.gif

To me the lower legs, although they serve well understood purpose are kind of white flag of design as the purpose in a way defeats esthetic. It is like an American architecture in 30s – they built a wonderfully building and then they run ugly external fire escape around the facade.

Again, I approach from the position of my objective – I what the frame to be invisible and horns juts fly in air by themselves. This very much might not be your, Rakesh, objective, so whatever I say might be absolutely irrelevant to you and to your builder.

Regarding the strength. Looking at the building techniques I do not think that you will have any problem however when I say about strength I do not means that you will put the horns in the frame and the frame collapses or bends. When you go to a store and buy a brand new bad then it is dead firm and has not noises. However, after a few year of use you suddenly begin to hear noises and recognize that that wood is not so solid. The point is that the loudspeaker frame will be exposed to many microscopic vibrations and it might (or might not) weaken the joints as time goes by.

This is not criticism but the aspect that need to be considered. I am sure that with large contact surface and good wood it is possible to make the joint that will last move then a few life times…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 28
Post ID: 17493
Reply to: 17492
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent blokes
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

It looks like nice your builder doe for you a nice work. The whole design is not what I personally would look in frame as I have slightly different preferences. To me the whole concept of the bottom legs, what I call chicken legs, is not elegant and remind me the character from old Russian folklore tales: Cabin on chicken legs:

To me the lower legs, although they serve well understood purpose are kind of white flag of design as the purpose in a way defeats esthetic. It is like an American architecture in 30s – they built a wonderfully building and then they run ugly external fire escape around the facade.



I have not been exposed to the joys of reading either Russian children or Eastern literature where Baba-Yaga is some sort of archetypal cartoon character. My parents read to me classics such as 'Fables de La Fontaine' from where I progressed quickly to Tintin, Asterix, Mickey Mouse, then Marvel Comics. So your reference points are so far from mine that I am rather relieved you see in my design something which is not to your taste! 

The point of the splayed lower legs that you refer to so disparagingly is actually aesthetic as much as functional. They are wide enough to provide stability but narrow and high enough to be completely invisible from sight from the listening position.



 Romy the Cat wrote:

Again, I approach from the position of my objective – I what the frame to be invisible and horns juts fly in air by themselves. This very much might not be your, Rakesh, objective, so whatever I say might be absolutely irrelevant to you and to your builder.

The Cat


What is you say is not only irrelevant but quite wrong. The frame, legs and supporting rig are in the main invisible from the listening position and this was a design requirement from the very beginning. I do not dislike criticism of any sort, which is why I post here, but when it has no foundation, it's slightly pointless.


 Romy the Cat wrote:

It looks like nice your builder doe for you a nice work.

Regarding the strength. Looking at the building techniques I do not think that you will have any problem however when I say about strength I do not means that you will put the horns in the frame and the frame collapses or bends. When you go to a store and buy a brand new bad then it is dead firm and has not noises. However, after a few year of use you suddenly begin to hear noises and recognize that that wood is not so solid. The point is that the loudspeaker frame will be exposed to many microscopic vibrations and it might (or might not) weaken the joints as time goes by.

This is not criticism but the aspect that need to be considered. I am sure that with large contact surface and good wood it is possible to make the joint that will last move then a few life times…

The Cat


I do not know where you buy your bed and certainly have no interest in finding out what you do in it, but my bed and those that I tend to buy (it's true I am not buying them from your local discounted furniture shop in downtown Boston) do not creak, sag or loose their general functional integrity after a few years!

More to the point, I imagine you might conceivably be right about the joints weakening over time. If the LVFrame should last a few lifetimes before this becomes an issue, as you appear to suggest, I will be quite happy and will leave my great-great-great grandchildren to worry about this not quite perfect legacy of their ancestors. When problems should appear, it should be a relative simple matter to strengthen the structure with stiffening ribs as you suggested earlier. After all, one of the greatest work completed by Leonardo Da Vinci in his lifetime, 'The Last Supper' fell into ruins within 20 years or so because of the 'modular' time saving construction technique he utilised. So my slowly unravelling LVFrame will be in good company whilst it itself feels the passage of time.

Best regards
Rakesh
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,966
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 17494
Reply to: 17493
OK.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 oxric wrote:
What is you say is not only irrelevant but quite wrong. The frame, legs and supporting rig are in the main invisible from the listening position and this was a design requirement from the very beginning. I do not dislike criticism of any sort, which is why I post here, but when it has no foundation, it's slightly pointless.
 Well, “irrelevant”, “wrong”, “no foundation”, “pointless”… it is fine by me. As time goes by you will realize that those type of acoustic systems work the best when they are well extended into the room, peaty much in the mid of the rooms.  So, the absolute invisibility from the listening position is of cause is very important, in fact mandatory in my view. However, having the semi-identical loudspeaker in the middle of my room and living with it for years I feel you that side view is also important, at least for the room decor.  So, with my sincerity I think that at this point your opinions are irrelevant. Still, it is your project not my, if you like it then you like it. I comment upon it not because I would like to encourage you do something different but because I would like to expose to you the side of the subject that might be not too obvious to you at this point. I do express my reasons, you might completely discard them  but if you feel that my contribution is irrelevant and pointless then it does not encourage me provide any of my comments for the next time.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 30
Post ID: 17495
Reply to: 17494
You misunderstand me. As always. And it would be a shame if you did not comment anymore.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 oxric wrote:
What is you say is not only irrelevant but quite wrong. The frame, legs and supporting rig are in the main invisible from the listening position and this was a design requirement from the very beginning. I do not dislike criticism of any sort, which is why I post here, but when it has no foundation, it's slightly pointless.
 Well, “irrelevant”, “wrong”, “no foundation”, “pointless”… it is fine by me. As time goes by you will realize that those type of acoustic systems work the best when they are well extended into the room, peaty much in the mid of the rooms.  So, the absolute invisibility from the listening position is of cause is very important, in fact mandatory in my view. However, having the semi-identical loudspeaker in the middle of my room and living with it for years I feel you that side view is also important, at least for the room decor.  So, with my sincerity I think that at this point your opinions are irrelevant. Still, it is your project not my, if you like it then you like it. I comment upon it not because I would like to encourage you do something different but because I would like to expose to you the side of the subject that might be not too obvious to you at this point. I do express my reasons, you might completely discard them  but if you feel that my contribution is irrelevant and pointless then it does not encourage me provide any of my comments for the next time.

The Cat


Hi Romy,

The reason I post here and pretty much nowhere else is because I like your sincerity, and directness. It would be for me a real shame if you did not post your comments as you see fit. We may never agree but then again I learn a lot from your comments and your site generally. But you do as you wish...

I honestly have not given that much consideration to the 'side view' and although I think I will like what's there, you may be right that in the long term, I may prefer to have made different choices. Time will tell and if there is one thing about me, it is that I am not in the business of lying to myself as my understanding and tastes evolve over time. As I think you imply, the choice of timber for the frame immediately imposes a number of constraints on its design and I have said from the beginning that I see several advantages in constructing the frame out of steel for all the reasons you give, because of its freedom in terms of bulk and for cost considerations. In my case, the look and feel of wood trumped all these 'disadvantages' of making use of wood.

I am nearly ready to move on to the next stage of this project, but it looks as if my other 'fibreglass' hornbuilder from Germany, who was supposed to deliver my four pairs of 550/400/250/200 Hz horns months ago, will not be able to deliver until Christmas, when I will myself not be in France to take delivery. But this is the subject for another thread.

Thanks

Best regards
Rakesh

12-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JKnechtel
Posts 4
Joined on 12-07-2011

Post #: 31
Post ID: 17496
Reply to: 17495
LVFrame
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rakesh,
Thanks for sharing the photos of your stands.   Actually that helps me a great deal in understanding his joint.  I am a bit of a woodworker and am a big fan of doweled joints.  I do not feel you will have to worry about creaking over the years.  Modern glues and dowel joints are quite durable.  Think of chairs made of wood that have constant stress on them as people lean back or tip the chairs while in them.  The good ones don't get wobbly over the years.  
Aesthetics is a personal thing, but I actually quite like the look of your stands.  I wasn't sure I would until I saw the big horn pictured on it.  As yes I like the side view from that photo.  
One of the things I like about your stand is that it is made of wood.  I personally can work with wood and even do joints like those pictured (looks like he used the domino system from Festool) but I no nothing of working with steel.  
I also had in mind to make something more temporary while I piece together, measure, experiment with building the whole system and then commit final design when I have a bit better idea of the complete system.
Josh
12-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 17499
Reply to: 17496
Potential issues
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rakesh,

Two things I see that may or may not turn out to be an issue:

1) The relatively narrow stance of the front wheels; depending on how heavily you load the top of the frame, stability could be a bit on the limit when moving things around, especially on carpet. You will also very likely end up slightly shimming one side in order to get the mast completely vertical (you will be dealing with French floors...); jacking one side to shim it can be a bit tedious with a narrow stance.

2) The casters you selected are of the stem-mount variety; keep them tight! If they start backing out, the stem bends when pushing around the heavily loaded structure, again especially on carpeted floors, especially if there's a lot of padding. The bent stem then jams the steering function of the casters. Nevertheless, really good stem-mount casters will withstand this sort of abuse, in which case the caster mounting plate and mounting bore must also be up to the job. I wouldn't expect any catastrophic failures here but the plate might work loose over time. Above all, don't use the stems to level the frame; screw all stems in until the upper bearing races firmly contact the frame mounting surfaces; use shims between the wheels and the floor to make it all stand up straight.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 33
Post ID: 17500
Reply to: 17499
Miscast castors I hope these are not! But we will see soon enough.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Rakesh,

Two things I see that may or may not turn out to be an issue:

1) The relatively narrow stance of the front wheels; depending on how heavily you load the top of the frame, stability could be a bit on the limit when moving things around, especially on carpet. You will also very likely end up slightly shimming one side in order to get the mast completely vertical (you will be dealing with French floors...); jacking one side to shim it can be a bit tedious with a narrow stance.



Jessie,

This is also my worry and has been from the start. In the end, I decided to accept a compromise, that is keep the front span of the legs fairly narrow so that I would not have to see the castor wheels from the listening position. Obviously my hope is that the weight of the UB115 horn with a centre of mass away from the mast will act as a strong cantilever to the weight from above. Having lifted the horn today (it got delivered from a van by Russ and was transferred to a truck taking it to France in the same breath!), I realise it is not as heavy as I would have hoped, a mere 70kg or so. Still whilst moving the frame about with the horn placed on it, it felt fairly stable and easy to manoeuver. Russ in fact commented how misleading it was handling the combination as a light push would give it a fair amount of momentum.

The weight of the midrange horns as they are presently will not present a problem as the horns built for me by Hajo Steffen from Huertgenwald in Germany are made of fibreglass and are relatively light. I have been waiting for these horns to be delivered for nearly four months now and live in hope that this will happen before Christmas.

Eventually, I may well have heavier horns for the 'fundamental channel', maybe even a 180-200Hz made out of mdf or laminated birch ply, and then the narrow stance of the front cradle may well prove a problem.

I do have carpet in my front room in the UK and I know too well how much of a bane they are for most castor wheels available on the market but in my place in France I have had, thankfully, wooden flooring fitted earlier this year. How level the flooring is, in this centuries old, traditional alsatian house, I have not checked but will find out when I am there in a few days' time to accept delivery of the LVframe and UB115. The fitter, a maitre artisan of the 'Compagnons du Tour de France, a guild that dates back to the medieval ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnons_du_Tour_de_France), who happens to be a pilot in his spare time, seems to have done a really good job:

Rakeshorns parquet IMG_4756.jpg
Parquet installation and detail of my lounge/listening room in Ribeauville, France

Rakeshorns parquet2 IMG_4755.jpg
Parquet installation again

Rakeshorns parquet3 IMG_4759.JPG
Parquet installation - labour of love following the contour of the irregular stone walls around the rooms, with no convenient skirting board

I am sort of hoping that by some miracle that this house that does have not a single pair of parallel walls to its name anywhere over its four floors has perfectly level floors! I guess that if I am not that fortunate, I will just have to deal with uneven flooring by following your suggestion, that is shimming rather than using the stem to level the LVFrame if needs be.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:


2) The casters you selected are of the stem-mount variety; keep them tight! If they start backing out, the stem bends when pushing around the heavily loaded structure, again especially on carpeted floors, especially if there's a lot of padding. The bent stem then jams the steering function of the casters. Nevertheless, really good stem-mount casters will withstand this sort of abuse, in which case the caster mounting plate and mounting bore must also be up to the job. I wouldn't expect any catastrophic failures here but the plate might work loose over time. Above all, don't use the stems to level the frame; screw all stems in until the upper bearing races firmly contact the frame mounting surfaces; use shims between the wheels and the floor to make it all stand up straight.

jd*


Again, I chose the castor wheels after pretty much driving poor Russ round the bend, discarding hundreds of contenders because they were too industrial looking whilst he discarded just as many because they were not of the stem variety ( I wanted to have adjustable castor wheels precisely in case I encountered uneven floors but I feel given what you have said above that this would be rather ill-advised). I also needed castor wheels which could accomodate a total load of 400kg (my rough figures were based on 100kg for UB115 including back chamber, 100 kg for LVframe, 20-30 kg for lower MF, 10kg for tweeter, 30-50 kg for upper MF, and potentially 30-50kg for Injection channel plus 50kg safety margin) divided over three castor wheels even though the LVFrame would have four wheels.

I do not know how good these castors by Tente are supposed to be, but given that they seem to be a fairly huge German manufacturer that specialises in just castors and wheels, I suspect they ought to be very good indeed. When I came across Tente, http://www.tente.com, that makes a large range of castor for very different applications and end-users, after going through their extensive catalogue, I was immediately sold on the 'Levina' range of castors by the German castor specialist, the Levina being a range intended for institutional customers, not because it has 'LV' in its name but because it avoided the 'industrial  look' of most heavy load bearing castors, with a load capacity of 100kg (200kg static) per castor (Levina 5370PJP125P30-11)

http://www.tente.co.uk/EN/cat0/am5113.html

http://www.tente.co.uk/EN/pdfpages/5113/4/0/Catalog6_Page70_EN_tente.co.uk.pdf


As things currently stand, I have the silver/grey versions which Russ ordered as he believed that they were only available in that colour (I had the castors' 'chassis' painted black. However, thanks to your query, I now realise that as on the picture I kept referring to that they are available in graphite/black which are the ones I will be ordering to replace the current ones (as I also use these castors in a smaller version the two matching coffee tables I had made out of Lignum Vitae, I need to order 16 of these!).

I think that these castors will work a treat on my wooden flooring, given their intended market, and the amount of thought that went in their design (they won a design award in 2009), but will wait until I know more to report on their performance. Given that the mounting for these is fairly standard, I may be able to change to other better performing castors if need be eventually. If in the end, I don't feel completely happy with their looks, I may also still replace them with some appropriately designed feet, that will go on the frames once their fixed location has been established, as Romy suggested somewhere I think.

Thanks for the advice on how to use and mount these castors. I certainly did not realise that levelling them using the stem was a poor idea although on reflection, I can see that you are probably right. I remember some furniture castors I had fitted to some air suspended Arcici racks years ago and how they would not last a few days of use even though they were recommended and supplied by the rack manufacturer. In the end, I asked the British distributor to find some other heavy duty castors, which he duly did and which I still use to this day on all four Arcici racks I use in my main system. So I understand the need to find the right castors and hope these Levina ones will be up to the job (especially once they are all replaced with the so much sexier graphite/black ones!).

Best regards
Rakesh
12-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,966
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 17505
Reply to: 17500
Excellent walls.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Regarding the pictures above

Whatever it is but the walls in that room are very for listening room. The wall like this of cause would not defeat any “unlucky” or “less successful” loudspeaker positioning in the room. Still with the wal like this is much more fun to deal with.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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