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  »  New  The loudspeakers for a powerful SET..  Mission Accomplished?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     48  272240  04-11-2008
01-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 21
Post ID: 6485
Reply to: 6484
Glycerol and moisture
I have even done the opposite with cones I found harsh-sounding: Apply a layer of glycerol and let it pour in, so that it has the tendency to suck moisture out of the air. The disadvantage: Sound becomes very dependent on humidity.
01-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 6487
Reply to: 6485
The cones soaking


The cone soaking is a whole another subject all together. It is possible to make amassing changes with drivers, from taking the sound out off roof to complete killing sound. I know that effect Glycerin has to paper cone. There are hundreds of other comical compounds and method, starting from steaming the cones and ending with the deep soaking the cones in something like Chitine or floor polishers. I personally still prefer extensive way of dealing with drivers using better driver as is.

BTW, another candidate for a good direct radiator MF drives might be those new Feastrex Japanese drivers. If do not let them to run in extremes’ and do not peruse that foolish “full-range” idea then it might be interning. Still it is unknown to me how they sound and the most important how they might be integrated with other drivers (TAD 1201). It does not look like Greg around anymore but if he is it would be interesting to learn which direction he went.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,103
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 23
Post ID: 6494
Reply to: 6487
Changing driver sound with dope
As late as the 1960s every self-respecting hi-fi nut had a "secret recipe" for "speaker dope".  My own guru would not give me his exact recipe for speaker dope but insisted that developing the stuff was a rite of passage I had to go through myself.

To make a long story short, I ruined quite a few otherwise-decent drivers by doping the cones and/or putting "dots", "radial lines", "steps", etc. on them with substances ranging from damar varnish and/or expensive artist oils to the "dope" and special "Pactra" paints then used for balsa-and-paper model airplanes.

Such treatment does indeed change the sound.  I realized too late that the key to good sound is to start with a driver that  delivers good sound/performance in a certain range and then to limit that  driver to that range.  Too bad I couldn't figure out crossovers and amplification - let alone the horns -  suitable to exploit my hard-won "knowledge".  I also found it is a rough go to get the right "basis" when starting with smaller than a 10" driver as a "pivot point" for a direct radiator system, and nothing I have done to any smaller driver so far has yielded the balance of weight, texture and color available from a good 10", without the dope, if any of those things seem important.

FWIW, I started "seriously" with 2-way A-7s, trying to get 800 Hz out of 515s and (obviously) trying to run 808s down to meet that, and I also tried the 500 Hz "stock option".  I hope it is obvious to all readers that this excercise was doomed from the beginning, and no special type or amount of "dope" was ever going to make it work.

If only for re-sale value I recommend against painting or soaking diaphragms of vintage drivers.  If you happen to have a good-sounding vintage driver/diaphragm/cone do not expect it is simply "replaceable".

I think - looking back - that the key to evaluating and developing the "best" a vintage driver has to offer is first tuning into its best rather than trying mainly to mitigate its shortcomings.  Yes, its "best" might well be a narrower range than its "specs" indicate; but my experience indicates that ANY sort of doping will kill the best an un-doped driver can do, even if doping "improves certain other things.

As an annoying adjunct, my guru had "doped" 515s that were remarkable in that they sounded great; but they were also very unlike any others I heard before or since.

So, given that you basically get one "treatment" per diaphragm, how much time and money do you have to throw at doping?

Best regards,
Paul S
01-31-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,103
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 24
Post ID: 6510
Reply to: 6494
Oops; it should also be noted
Some oils and solvents break down paper, glue and/or rubber surrounds, and some "oils" will leech clear into voice coils.

Good luck,
Paul S
12-27-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 80
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 25
Post ID: 22901
Reply to: 6327
Symmetric config speakers
Dear Romy,
Albeit with almost 10 years delay what you think of Gryphon speakers with same configuration?
01-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 137
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 26
Post ID: 24638
Reply to: 22901
TAD TM-1201 observations
There seems to be a lack of useful feedback on the actual sound quality of these oddball, relatively rare TAD mids. So I think it would be helpful to share some basic observations I gather after listening to them for a couple of days. I install these 1201 on an open baffle so I could compare to Tannoy 12" paper coax, also being on a similar open baffle (using only the woofer section and bypassing tannoy crossover).

I had them powered by a 30w push pull tube amp and DSP processor for flexibility of setting the crossover filters. I set the filters to 6db/oct at 150hz and 1.5khz.

It's an understatement that I don't like the 1201 sound. It's probably the most unpleasant sound I heard at home from a single driver. When the German distributor told me the sound is "fast and loud" I thought that may be a good start to describe. But the main problem I have with this driver is that as soon as I start listening to any music material that I like, I want to turn off this thing after 2 minutes. At first what stands out is the truly high sensitivity and the clarity of attack of all sounds. However, everything sounds loud and compressed, as thought the music that I know so well has compressed the hell out of it and then converted to mp3 of medium bitrate. It's a flat, loud sound with little spacial development, as clearly evident when comparing to the lowly 12" paper tannoy.

There is no sustain of any note, no harmonic development, just an on/off type of behavior that really creates an aggressive, hard to enjoy environment. I did not measure this thing and I don't care about that as I see no point of investigating for myself any further. It may be this this is acceptable in a mastering studio monitor where the values are based on dissecting the recording but for reproducing something that resembles natural tone and timbre, this is an awful midrange.  Beautiful midrage it is not.

I did compare to the paper Tannoys. What is clear is the significant sensitivity advantage and midrange resolution but of only the attack of the notes. Maybe it's related to the low Qm of the TAD? I don't know.

So do not rush to purchase TM-1201, in fact if I got them for free, I would sell them at the first opportunity. I don't want to say this is a piece of shit driver but it sure sound like one. Over engineered in the wrong direction? 


01-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 24639
Reply to: 24638
TAD direct radiators are garbidge.
 noviygera wrote:
… everything sounds loud and compressed, as thought the music that I know so well has compressed the hell out of it….

Well, as far as I concerned, you have characterized ANY TAD non-compression driver.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Scott L
Posts 17
Joined on 02-26-2008

Post #: 28
Post ID: 24640
Reply to: 24638
Open baffle is garbage
 noviygera wrote:
There seems to be a lack of useful feedback on the actual sound quality of these oddball, relatively rare TAD mids. So I think it would be helpful to share some basic observations I gather after listening to them for a couple of days. I install these 1201 on an open baffle so I could compare to Tannoy 12" paper coax, also being on a similar open baffle (using only the woofer section and bypassing tannoy crossover).

I had them powered by a 30w push pull tube amp and DSP processor for flexibility of setting the crossover filters. I set the filters to 6db/oct at 150hz and 1.5khz.

It's an understatement that I don't like the 1201 sound. It's probably the most unpleasant sound I heard at home from a single driver. When the German distributor told me the sound is "fast and loud" I thought that may be a good start to describe. But the main problem I have with this driver is that as soon as I start listening to any music material that I like, I want to turn off this thing after 2 minutes. At first what stands out is the truly high sensitivity and the clarity of attack of all sounds. However, everything sounds loud and compressed, as thought the music that I know so well has compressed the hell out of it and then converted to mp3 of medium bitrate. It's a flat, loud sound with little spacial development, as clearly evident when comparing to the lowly 12" paper tannoy.

There is no sustain of any note, no harmonic development, just an on/off type of behavior that really creates an aggressive, hard to enjoy environment. I did not measure this thing and I don't care about that as I see no point of investigating for myself any further. It may be this this is acceptable in a mastering studio monitor where the values are based on dissecting the recording but for reproducing something that resembles natural tone and timbre, this is an awful midrange.  Beautiful midrage it is not.

I did compare to the paper Tannoys. What is clear is the significant sensitivity advantage and midrange resolution but of only the attack of the notes. Maybe it's related to the low Qm of the TAD? I don't know.

So do not rush to purchase TM-1201, in fact if I got them for free, I would sell them at the first opportunity. I don't want to say this is a piece of shit driver but it sure sound like one. Over engineered in the wrong direction? 




You are accurately describing the sound of a driver that is intended to be used in a sealed enclosure, but instead on a open baffle. You broke the rule known as "There shall be no Di Pole Ness".
01-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,103
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 29
Post ID: 24642
Reply to: 24640
The Actual "Rule"
Not to "defend" di-pole, but just to clarify, the "Rule" is: Thou Shalt Listen to Thy Results and Be Guided Thereby.  Just like "horns" or following Horn Resp won't get you a good sounding horn system.

For most, it is probably best to stick to the topology a favored driver is "designed for".  However, good-sounding drivers are few and far between, no matter the preferred topology, and there are more ways to mess up the sound of even good sounding drivers than there are ways to integrate those drivers into systems and rooms.  At  least this is the case where  one is after "advanced" results.




Best regards
Paul S
01-21-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 137
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 30
Post ID: 24644
Reply to: 24642
I am skeptical but...
I agree the dipol is generally a wrong direction for entire speaker system but I thought it a good way to evaluate a specific driver's sound and character. I am I wrong here? 

The box should only increase the bass range and provide additional damping. TM-1201 already sounds incredibly overdapmped.If it sounds like crap on a panel, putting in the sealed box will magically change it's sound quality? I am very skeptical about this but if I am wrong, I can build a box and listen again but. Why would it sound better on a box?
01-21-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,103
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 24645
Reply to: 24644
The Sound of a Given Driver
A given driver might sound very different  when it's deployed in different ways, so putting it in a box just might make it sound "better" to you (vs. OB), for your particular application.  But why did you choose this driver?  What about its sound attracted you in the first place, and how was it deployed when you decided to try it out for yourself?  How does the cone handle the "scratch and tap" test?


Paul S
01-21-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Scott L
Posts 17
Joined on 02-26-2008

Post #: 32
Post ID: 24646
Reply to: 24645
1201
Operating a driver in an open baffle will cause front-to-back sound wave cancellation, aka the acoustical short circuit. In addition to this, a plane board baffle offers zero air load to the drivers cone. This is not good. That's why it sounded like crap.

I actually owned a pair of these 1201's for quite a while. They are excellent drivers, but they are also specialized mid range drivers. They don't sound like 12 inch woofers at all. The reason that I bought the pair that I had, was for a couple of reasons. They were highly recommended to mate with my Stage Accompany SA-8535 ribbon drivers, and I knew a guy locally, who had a pristine pair and willing to sell to me for a very fair price.

Tapping the cone resulted in a neutral sound. Having said that, they are still a 12 inch cone being used for mid range.  I found that the higher I used them in the their recommended frequency range, the more "cone cry" they exhibited. 2500Hz was still a compromise, as it was suggested to me to cross them at 1.2K, but I use an active crossover system, and decided to pursue another avenue all together, rather than to re-configure my unit for the crossover frequency change.

There is also quite a bit of discussion on the merit of this driver as being used as a mid-bass horn driver, but I never did try it.
01-21-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,103
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 33
Post ID: 24647
Reply to: 24646
The Neutral Sounding Driver
The best-sounding drivers I've heard will amplify a wide range of sounds from scratching or tapping differently at different points on the cone, or even from tapping or rubbing the driver frame.  And never mind OB, some throw amazing tonal range and color in "free air", meaning no baffle at all.  Of course they aren't doing LF like this, but some of the 12" might do incredible cello.  OB itself might be a way to get a lot from some drivers, albeit the "acoustic short" must be dealt with somehow, usually with another driver.  I don't know the 1201, but there are drivers that might be OK in OB, given they are properly helped by the overall speaker/system in a given room.

I have not heard the ribbons nor the MF drivers you've mentioned, but I would typically not run a 12" that high nor ribbons so low as to try that.




Best regards,
Paul
Page 2 of 2 (33 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2
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  »  New  The loudspeakers for a powerful SET..  Mission Accomplished?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     48  272240  04-11-2008
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