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  »  New  A revision of playback with reverberation injection or ..  Lexicon MX400...  Playback Listening  Forum     82  19827  08-03-2021
07-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 21
Post ID: 26207
Reply to: 26206
Sonic Level 2 and Car Audio Success
Sure, we can "overcome" the "sonic obstacles" and wind up in Audio Heaven, and there seems to be any number of ways this can happen. I really wish I knew how to make this continuous! Of course, many experienced people have sung the praises of Dr. Gaw's installation, so there must be enough There there to carry over from session to session, and person to person. I will bet that my brother's old "Hollywood style" system, at his previous mansion, would not hold a Level 2 candle to Bill's system. But some booze, good conversation, and the theater presentation always did the trick when I was there. And, like you said, it can also happen in a car, which is really amazing, also very thought provoking, if you think about it. At this exact point, I am taking a big gamble with present Level 2 "settings", hoping I can "get more" from Level 2 information without screwing up what I already have. When I thought my cartridge was a goner, I was so frustrated, I did not know if I would keep going. My friend Mark, who sometimes participates on this board, makes the best "digital copies" I have heard, and he might help me to "digitize" my music. But I would have to hear something that I have not heard yet before I went completely over to a fully-processed digital system of any kind. At the same time, as I've said here many times, I think the ULF might be the most fruitful place for digital exploration. (This does not mean I have reversed my position on SET bass, by the way). Personally, I have no idea where to start with digital manipulation of RT60, especially at Bill's level, while keeping what I like about what I have. That's why I stay tuned to this station!


Paul S
07-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 299
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 22
Post ID: 26208
Reply to: 26207
Without photos it never happened...
Bill, or Romy, what I am missing here is some kind of visual of the setup whether photos or a hand-drawn sketch.  I'm intrigued and would like to know more about it, especially in terms of its use with two channel and surround sound.  I am using a pair of decent JBL 8" monitors as surrounds with my Macondo/Melquiades, but the system falls short in terms of sound quality and engagement when playing concert blu-rays and I cannot think of one time where after experimenting I did not play the concert in stereo rather than surround.  Could be any number of things lining up to squash my enjoyment, I know, but some insight into a multichannel system that "works" would be invaluable, especially one based on horns. 
07-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 26210
Reply to: 26208
Wow, that was an interesting week
Indeed, it was. I never thought that visiting my local friends 2 weeks ago would open in me at Pandora box for acute audio obsession.  For the last 2 weeks my brain operates in Romy the Cat version 20 years ago, when I was doing audio full-time. Some things that I heard in Bills House made me to think, and when I want something I think about it semi-literally for 24 hours. During the last 2 weeks I did a lot of listening, a lot of thinking, a lot of learning what is available out there and digging in myself trying to associate everything together in compile it into some kind of applied conclusion. I think I did it and I think I like the result a lot. The problem, in context of midia we socialize, I feel kind of that it is too much work to download everything I have in my head into writing. So, as I have time I will make audio or video file then I explain all permutations of my new idias.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 102
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 24
Post ID: 26211
Reply to: 26210
Wow, interesting things are coming :)
I myself missed Romy of the past! I'm very happy that you're motivated again, I'm sure many people are waiting for new ideas.
07-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 26212
Reply to: 26211
Here is 40 min I just recorded....
Here is 40 min I just recorded; it is 2.3G mp4 video file.  It is all yours. It saved to me 2 hours of writing and to you 6 hours deciphering what the hell you were reading. You might download it from:

https://youtu.be/ZRDbNZ7den4



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 26213
Reply to: 26212
Whoda Thunkit?!?
Thanks for sharing, Romy! "Micro" and "macro" "schematics" would be a nice adjunct, to show how you hook up electronics and speakers, as well as speaker positioning. Of course, lots of recordings are treated with synthetic reverb, so those are getting "extra reverb" with your injection system. Since you mention "just cheap speakers" for the reverb, I suppose you have not re-deployed your Tannoy injection speakers for use as delay injection? I'm not entirely clear, but I think you said you use the Barringer for delay, and the amp for that channel is "just an amp", without delay capabilities? Ironically, plenty of the "normal" surround systems do have delay options for the rear channels. Again, I'm hoping the "macro schematic" will clear up where you put the delayed speakers, and you will say +/- what relative level you run them.


Best regards,
Paul S
07-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 26214
Reply to: 26213
Here it comes....
ReverbChenalls.png


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 26215
Reply to: 26214
Some questions...
There are some questions that I am looking answers and I do not have a firm position so far:

1)      How the quality of reverberation channels speakers and their amplification impact sound or the depth of the psychoacoustic trickery. 
2)      Are all sound field processors equal and if they not then what characteristic is more important. 
3)      Do all manufacturers use the same sound field algorithms? 
4)      The time alignment looks like completely irrelevant for reverberation channels speakers 
5)      Do prod reverbs more interesting then hi-fi makers? The Behringer Virtualizer 3D FX2000 for instance can do much more then Yamaha DSP Z9  and if you use something like Z9   for reverberation  injection then you do not use 99% of Z9  unit. 
6)      Are any sound field processors that permits to bypass the AD/DA conversion and run it direct? I ask as I have a LOT of run to use current sound field processor to run my reverberation channels with no proceeding. They do very convent -180 degree pilot playback that I running all time nowadays.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 29
Post ID: 26216
Reply to: 26215
Live At The Village Gate
Much clearer with the drawings; thanks again, Romy. So, if I listen to my old jazz LPs recorded live at The Village Gate with the DSP-Z9 on that setting I would be getting a double dose of ambience, along with the extra stuff the recording engineers threw in to make the LP sound "realistic"? As to your question about the standardized sound field processing, the answer is no, of course. Not to mention "normal" stereo is a proprietary mix-down in the first place, and it typically includes "artistic" "cross pollination" of right and left channels to make swell stereo. Also, digital sources are no more standardized, end to end, than analog sources. What I'm saying is, we might never get to the bottom of all this stuff, and we'll probably have to do what we do get done by ear, with more or less random efforts, at least for a while, until we can establish "what matters" amongst varying variables, until we can consistently implement and predict acceptable results.

For those trying this at home, Romy has a zillion input/output, fully buffered, active Placette pre-amp, with a pass-through, for keeping output impedance, gain and isolation where one needs it to be to do this. YMMV. Any "pro-type" mixer board should do, as well; but plenty of home stereo pre-amps will not do it.

So far, the more I learn about this "system", the less I know, apart from "it works". Kinda like the PP3000...


Paul S
07-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 26217
Reply to: 26216
Not sure what you are trying to say...
Paul, I think you are taken it in a wrong direction in my view. It is absolutely relevant what your main speakers do, play mono, or stereo, how and why it was mixed. It is what it is, and we do not interact with main sound in any way or form. It feels to me that we do not use the Village Gate or any other short reverberation time programs as it has two short delays and the sound of reverberation channels become to “talk” with sound of main channels. You want the sound from main and reverberation channels to be completely separated entities that has nothing in common in terms of “primary sound”. You should “hear” your reverberation channels only when you abruptly stop music. The objective of reverberation channels is not change primary sound but to trick your mind and put your perception in the condition what you perceive the primary sound differently.  I am not expert with the subject, and I juts begin to experiment with it but that is what I feel so far.
 
I am not sure what you wanted to say by comparing reverberation channels with PP3000. Whoever was lucky to get properly working PP3000 know what this machine can do. Again, I am not trying to convince neither you or anybody else and what you do in terms of your own experiments, or you own believes is only your business. From what I hear now is that you are repeat the patters that you had with PP300:  express a lot of skepticism without trying the PP3000. I understand that in case of PP3000 it was a high entrance fee lottery with very low chance to win but in case of reverberation channels there is practically no entrance fee.  All that you need is $50 worth old receiver with psychoacoustic futures, most of them from end 80s and 90s. I think your skepticism would be much more valuable if you try it and then express your judgement.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 26218
Reply to: 26217
Not Skeptical but Amazed!
No, I see the comparison with PP3000 just as you've described it. I actually love it that in both cases they "just do the job", and I especially love it that in this case it really is "very little" to get it going, as well. My "tone" is not due to skepticism, rather I am gob smacked, even tickled, that your solution simply circumvents all the "considerations" that are built into our media and our playback systems (and our "thinking" on these matters), and the resultant complexities that have frustrated so many for so long. It's the proverbial cutting of the Surround Gordian Knot. Congratulations, and Thanks Again!


Best regards,
Paul S
07-31-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 26219
Reply to: 26217
Hm....
In context of my recent discovery how to use and what kind of benefits of reverberation channels have to sound reproduction I have a few interesting ideas how faulty entire high-end premises is. It is not a funny judgment but it is certainly a different perspective expressed from very much jungle of high-end audio. I am contemplating to make a public presentation of concept and probably to load it at you too for something for this, we are talking about public benefits. Can you give me reasons not to do it?



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-31-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 33
Post ID: 26220
Reply to: 26219
Do It!
HL Menken was kind of a jerk in some ways, but he also got a lot right, including: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nobody_ever_went_broke_underestimating_the_intelligence_of_the_American_people

Although, these days, I think first of Fox News when I hear this, it certainly applies to "high end hi-fi", as well.

Sure, in truth, plenty of people have gone broke trying to market "high end" hi-fi. But plenty of people went broke over-spending on "high end" hi-fi gear, too. And, as Clark said, these losses pretty much amount to "a tax on stupidity", since 99% of punters have no idea what they've gotten themselves into, in the first place. It's always time for some coherent commentary on the shitstorm of disinformation that is "high end audio", and any useful directives would be a real windfall, for those with ears who can also hear. Since the original idea here all along has been to discuss sound, listening, and music in the context of audio, it's not like this would be any kind of change. More like hitting the re-set button on the computer. No sponsors to placate. Can't beat the venue.


Best regards
Paul S
07-31-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 26221
Reply to: 26220
Strange development.
Well, I feel very interesting. I had a lot in my mind before recording the video above and even though I shared a small portion if of it took for me remarkable fast to do it and I did not go over the pain of writing it or thinking about what I saying. I am contemplating now to open my own youtube channel with video version of my site. The mission and intend of my video channel will not change but the communication might be much simplified.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-01-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 35
Post ID: 26222
Reply to: 26221
What About the Library!?!
This site is absolutely the best collected thinking and "information library" on hi-fi I have found, in almost 60 years at this, and your writing, belabored or not, is at the heart of it. Having edited and published a non-profit, monthly "literary journal and calendar" for 10 years, I can certainly understand why you want a change. I hope everyone took notes. While I wouldn't say the "long format" is the key here, I do believe it keeps the usual quipping down, encourages people to dig a little deeper.  YouTube has "everything" on it, all right; but the responses rarely seem to add anything. Won't know 'til you try it. One thing for sure, people just love videos; you'd probably "pick up traffic". With your family situation and the schedule it implies, I've been amazed at your output!

Best regards,
Paul S
08-01-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 26223
Reply to: 26222
I flipped the video above from my gDrive to youtube
https://youtu.be/ZRDbNZ7den4


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 399
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 37
Post ID: 26224
Reply to: 26221
The Art of Video?
Maybe it is just me but I cannot help thinking that videos simply take up more time and space for the same content. Let us take Romys video. 40 minutes. How many pages would have been a post with identical content? How long would it take me to read and understand that written content? When reading, I can scan content, focus on things that are more difficult and then put the pieces together. With a video, there is no pre scan. In the case of Romy‘s video, I watched it twice - 80 minutes and I still need to go back again for some details. If I wanted to post a video response (which will not happen as on this subject I have no well formed ideas), I would have an investment of many hours compared to minutes for blog text. Sure, that is my problem - or is it?
Granted, it is more fun to see someone talking, story telling. For a personal diary with optional feedback, this format has its charm. I know that there is technology to create running transcripts from text. I am not sure that this would accomplish the same thing as it is more like a presentation where someone just reads the slides.
With the video we also do not have full text search. Goodsoundclub has been a searchable resource for me.
One last point, seeing and hearing Romy „muse“ about a subject is also entertaining. A voice, a picture makes a more complete experience even if there is not more „meat“.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
08-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 26226
Reply to: 26224
A painting...
Thanks, rowuk, I need to admit that it is very new to me, and it is possible that many things that I do are wrong in context to more experienced video posters. This is also very interesting to run own mouth on a subject without preparing or thinking what I will be saying next. Writing takes longer and should have some sense; speaking is more forgiving and so much more liberating... I love the idea of video response. I still thinking about all of it. I do think there that are subjects for writing and there are for speaking. Speaking, at least in format and manner that I do is more suitable for painting a picture with a large brash….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 39
Post ID: 26227
Reply to: 26226
A Cloud of Ideas? A Charged Cloud!
We had some background for the video on this site, I think, some of it, perhaps, starting with the injection channel, years ago. I do wonder how much a "cold call" viewer, with no "background" of this video, would take away from it. I hope we will figure this out. The big thing for me is that it "clearly" tells us that we can have the benefits from surround by simply splitting the right and left stereo channels and adding that output behind us, but delayed. Pretty effing simple, if you ask me, and a real "up yours" to those who try to profit from the prevailing BS and obfuscation.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-02-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,914
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 26228
Reply to: 26219
Behringer Virtualizer
The last couple days I have experimented with Behringer Virtualizer 3D FX2000 High-Performance 3D Multi-Engine Effects Processor. It is pro machine, very non expensive that allows doing the same as Yamaha field processors can do. I was hoping to up my quality game in terms of processing quality. I was a bit disappointed the Behringer runs at 48K vs Yamaha at 44K, I expected at least a full 2X. Still I think the AD and DA should be better in Behringer. It is not to mention that Behringer allows configuring some params that Yamaha would not even dream.
 
I have sent the Behringer back today for 3 reasons.
 
1)      I did not detect any sonic advancement of Behringer vs Yamaha in any practical sonic terms.
2)      For reverberation field injection I need a remote control. Period!
3)      Behringer has so much params calibrate that I become kind of bored with it.
 
Still, if you celebrate your own anal retentiveness more than I do mine then you can experiment with it. Let me know if you find any configuration that you feel works out for you and give any advantage over Yamaha processors.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  A revision of playback with reverberation injection or ..  Lexicon MX400...  Playback Listening  Forum     82  19827  08-03-2021
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