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  »  New  Where are our good phonostages?..  Omnigon Tubes...  Analog Playback Forum     61  525801  05-31-2004
12-12-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 3297
Reply to: 2453
I need a new 7788-7721 (perhabs) phonostage…

I decided to make this post in this thread (you are at a second page of the thread) about the “second-type” phonostage. My needs for a Santa’s bring me a nice “second-type” phonostage really got stronger. If you remember my 7788-7721 tow stages, phonostage with air caps?

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?postID=41#41

I had been use it for a couple hears as my “second-type” phonostage. It had problem that it has one input. It delivered very much first class performance but…. It died recently. I checks tubes, they are ok and all operational parameter are fine but sound went very dramatically south on this correctors.  I accidentally left the PS of this corrector on with disconnected phonostage. The PS had no bleeder and it was … input choke LCRC. So, instead of 400V it was running I wide open at... should be near 500V… on the 16 caps of 450V/450uF each… Did I tell that I left it like this for 2 weeks?  Ironically none of the caps got shorted but the corrector sound absolutely horrible after this… I do not really wiling to fix it as I would like to have a phonostage with multi-input. Perhaps it would make sense to re-package it in another enclosure with 4 inputs….

The problem is that I do not want to do it anymore. It would be so cool if I fund somebody to whom I might give a fully developed circuit, with parts, instructions and design incisures, some money and then juts pick it up is a couple weeks. I relay hat to build this again. Initially to build that two sated corrector with the magnificent 7788-7721, trying to learn how to get sound out of it was “almost fun” but to build already known circuit is boring like hell… Are anybody out there? Besides making some money I would provide pars for two correctors and you might get for yourself a very-very seriously sound phonostage… How else I could solicit you? How about that I promise do not insult you on my sire for the next 3 years? :-)

The only hesitation I might have is that my 7788-7721 is 66dB gain, not enough…. Perish I would put one more gain stag in there…. Anyhow, any offers and proposals would be considered….
 
Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-12-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 171
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 22
Post ID: 3298
Reply to: 3297
Well...
If you're willing to send it to the deep Midwest (Detroit) I could assemble the circuit for you and ship it back. Regards, Wojtek
12-13-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 3301
Reply to: 3298
That pain in ass Cat

I have seen what kind cars Detroit makes…

I kidding. Thanks, Wojteck, I will consider it. I have to visualize what it will be. I know that it will be >80gain and it will be useing my long-time-ago-prepared capacitors but there are some problems that I need to address in the design before everything will be clear. This corrector will be slightly different then the previous 7788-7721 not to mention that dispute of the elephant size of some elements I would like to make it very-very compact. I need to sleep with some ideas for a couple weeks before I clearly learn what exactly I need. Unfortunately it might be not just “assembling” but assembling perusing some very isocratic (considering the size) objectives. I might be a pain in ass…. I can clearly see it even now….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-14-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 171
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 24
Post ID: 3302
Reply to: 3301
It looks like you could have some "fun" by doing it yourself....
I drive Honda (like most immigrants) and would not consider having a domestic car. Looking at your Melquiades pics I think I can match west coast's standards ;0) but you have to clearly know what you want as I won't be able (looking at your objectives) to help with development of the circuit.Regards, Wojtek
12-14-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 3303
Reply to: 3297
Finding space for my 'second' phonocorrector.

I spent today a couple hours trying to resolve a quantity with my analog setup. As you remember in the mid of this thread:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?postID=2015#2015

I was proud that I eventually found a good configuration for my Micro-Seiki Double Deck TT. However, I had no space for a second phonostage on the upper deck and to run all cartridge cables to lower deck was not that I would like to do.  Since I am contemplation now a “final” second phonostage that would be able to run all my 5 arms I really wanted to locate it as close as possible to TT. However, since the corrector it will be around vacuum capacitors and it will be quite large for two stages deign the quantity was to find an extra space on my top shelf, with the reach of tonearms cables. After a few hours of mingling with various configurations I came across the following:

I like what I got a lot. My main reference arm with its reference corrector is unaffected and on left from my main phonocorrector there is plenty of space to put a lager “second” phonostage for the rest of the arms. Now, since the space for the second phonostage is not a factor I might go crazy and come up with something “pushy” – who know, perhaps with its 80dB on two stages it will be able to “violate” the sound of the “first phonostage”…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 4440
Reply to: 2453
I bought the “second-type” phonostage. Well, sort of....

OK, I did it. I bought the “second-type” phonostage.

As many of you know I do not reconnect the cables and my first “reference” phonostages is custom made 2-845PT with Expressive SU2 transformer practically hard-bund with my reference arm and my reference MC cartridge. My mono “reference” phonostages is “Aulasaulalaraula” – the  two stager around 7788-7721 with air caps – a phenomenal performer and I would like to keep it as it, thanks Got it’s 66dB of gain is perfect for 3mV out of SPU Mono.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=41

So, I need a second stereo phonostages for the rest of my arms. I have borrowed some and liked none of them.  I have a very specific requirement to it including the very specific shape and the location of the input outputs – it is the only shape that I might fit in my rack. So, between the shape, performance and very limited amount of blood I was wiling to invest in the project I have seen nothing that make me satisfied.

Eventually six month ago I desisted to make one more “Aulasaulalaraula” correct and do not sacrifice for anything. I was searching the ways to get 10 more db from the “Aulasaulalaraula”, probably I will be able to get 3more db… Still, I relay hare those DIY crap and was looking some incentives or help to render the project that is being on hold for a while.

Well, I am wiling to inform you that I got the incentives – I have bought my dream “second-type” phonostage. (The picture is below). The real-estate wise it is absolutely EXACTLY what I was looking for. The layout of the chasses is perfection to my objective as well, each single hole exactly where I need it to be. It is Chinese-made MC/MM phonostages, I have no idea about the phonostage’s name or performances – I bought it explicitly because it is the “ready to go chassis” where I will put my Aulasaulalaraula phonostage.

The last question would be how much this case cost? Ironically it cost less then the money I usually pay for my custom enclosures. The price for this Chinese phonostages is $170, I hardly believe it could be beaten…




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-23-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,257
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 4441
Reply to: 4440
Well, I hope you will at least listen to it...
before you gut it.

How funny would it be if it turned out to be any good, or even not bad?

Since they all seem to need endless hours of tweaking, who knows, maybe you've got something here.

In any case, the chassis looks quite solid, and the industrial engineering is pretty nice, too.

I'll say a few words about my MM-only K&K if I ever get it tuned and integrated (and if I ever get the same performance twice in a row...).

Best regards,
Paul S
05-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 4442
Reply to: 4441
chassis

it might be tricky for this (as it is) to work well as a phono stage!  It also seems rather involved for a line stage too. (too much gain?) The chassis does look substantial though.  Presumably the valves are pcb mounted inside? What will you do, make a subchassis to replace the pcb & put your phono stage onto that?

There are several far east based suppliers of metal chassis that can be bought as 'one off's' from ebay shops now.

 

05-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 4443
Reply to: 4442
oops
apologies, didn't see the sockets in the other end! I have seen chinese linestages that have this many tubes.  Be interesting to learn how well it works as is.
05-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 4444
Reply to: 4441
Of course I will give some listening to this thing

 Paul S wrote:
How funny would it be if it turned out to be any good, or even not bad?

Of course I will give some listening to this thing. They claim 65dB gain on 12AX7 and 12AU7 and 84dB noise. I do not know how true it will be. Who knows…. This would be very nice of this thing turn out to sound well and adding to it a 10-15 db transformer would resolve all my needs. I doubt that it will sound OK, though I have very limited experience with Chinese hi-hi.  Still, for $170 – how bad should it be? I paid juts for the 3 custom boxes of my 834PT $270….

BTW, the sad irony but the well performing phonostages should not cost a lot. That entire BS that the Industry and their writing idiots invented around phonostages is very bogus. A phonostages is a filter with a buffer – how complex should it be?!!! A RIAA stage for a full function preamp should not be more then $500 and a full-functional phonocorrector should no more then $1000-$1500. There is nothing in 60dB MM phonocorrector complex or expensive to be making them expensive. To build any 2 stage or 2 stage + follower corrector is sub $100 task… What the people do when they trying to push $10K or $20K phonocorrector? They do not necessary sound better.... Anyhow it is depressing irony that playing my reference arm of my quite OK performing analog setup I use a RIAA that coasted me even less then the set of boxed for it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,257
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 31
Post ID: 4445
Reply to: 4444
The price of excellence
I am with you on this one.  I am also very suspicious of gigantic, 4-chassis phono stages if only because I just wonder why the need for all those damn noisy parts, along with concommitment connections?

So it really pisses me off to admit that the "best" phono stage I have heard is probably the Boulder, which costs more than most cars!  I suppose it's common knowledge that the Boulder uses ultra-spec op amps, just like the ($$$$!) Palcette "Active" buffer amps; but then, so does that little English jobbie, "The Goof", or whatever they call it.

Otherwise, I find that it's always a matter of choosing my problems versus available strengths, and then just plugging away at it, just like most of my other components, so why over pay going in?

I don't entirely trust my aural memory, but I will make the offhand observation that - other than that stupid Boulder - I have not heard any real "improvements" in phono stages since the first Berning pre/phono hybrid.  Not that it matters, but this one typically had +/- .25 dB RIAA, and I can't help but wonder why others seem to have so much trouble with this.

I have looked at and wondered about the DACT, along with its super-quiet power supplies, whether it could be tweaked into something usable.  It is quite small, that's for sure, and not too expensive.

IMO, "high end" phono stages are right up there with "high end" cables, running neck and neck for the most ridiculous claims and pricing vs actual cost.  But then, most of the audio "manufacturers" these days are primarily marketing agencies, anyway.

I am currently trying the K&K, which at least keeps the cost down by no ads/direct selling from the actual designer/manufacturer.

Generally, I can't think of another place in audio where one can so consistently pay more and get less.

Best regards,
Paul S
07-26-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 4818
Reply to: 4440
The phonostage in Hunan style.

It'll is truly entertaining. I received today this Chinese phonostage, which turned out has a name, a box, a manual and believe you or not but the phonostage itself! It calls Yaion MS12B. Did I forget to tell that it cost $170?

Actually I am very pleased with what I see as it has a perfect shape was perfect location of all necessary inputs and outputs. It looks pretty much how it was promised. It even works, I mean the tubes heating, that pilot light are flashing and it amplifies the signal. I even open the bottom of the unit and frankly speaking the assembling is perfectly reasonable. I mean: all fan incuding for $170!


It did not listen this phonocorrector yet, but it also did not blow up right as I turned it on. So, salute to you, the Chinese folks.  It will be fun to try listening it in a couple days; probably I will put in there better 12AX7 and better 12AU7…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 4833
Reply to: 4818
The Sound of the Yaion MS12B phonostage.

Yaion_MS12B_phonostage.JPG


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,257
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 34
Post ID: 4834
Reply to: 4833
So you got a nice chassis at a decent price...
You keep coming back to the 85 dB thing, and I am curious to know how you intend to get that kind of gain without including a preliminary boost from a step-up transformer; at least, that's what I have understood you were saying.

Then, how do you plan to knock it back down to <40 dB, net?

Are you going to use the gain to try line-level X-overs?

I know you have a concept...


Best regards,
Paul S
07-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 4835
Reply to: 4834
I don't know why I never thought about it before…

The two stages 7788-7721 phonostge can go at near 70dB and it were what I was intended to put in that Chinese chassis. I would like 6-10db more. A transformer? A semiconductor gain stage? A third tube stage? I do not know…

Actually reticently, two says ago, an idea stroked me and I am currently evaluating it. It is very possible that if I accept this idea then I would not need a second-type phonostage. Since I still can not see anything that would touch the Sound of my “first” phonostage I was thinking to repackage the Second Expressive Technologies transformer and two EAR-T, making the tandem reusable with other arms (now it is imposable). It would be very simple to do and it will not compromise the loading demands from different arms. I do not know why I never thought about it before…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 4880
Reply to: 4835
unusual phono stages
Has anyone had the opportunity to listen to this device and form any impressions?

http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/sg.html

I recall that Win Labs made something similar in the late 70's but I never heard one.
03-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 7018
Reply to: 2453
Rowen Absolute as a “second-type” phonostage?

Since my  First, “End of Life" Phonostage will be done soon ( my mechanism has been doing the box for 3 month)

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=5856

I think again what will be the Second Phonostage to care my other arms with no re-plaguing. There is one interesting option but I know nothing about it. I hope some of the European visitors if my site would hear anything about this phonocorrector.

There is a Swiss company Rowen that makes an interesting phonostage:

http://www.rowen.ch/rowen/rowen.php?c=phono&l=d

It has a separate PS, can take 3 arms (2MC and one MM) and let to set loading for each input. I have no knowledge about the topology, active elements, gains, output impedance, noise, sound quality, price or anything else that I would be interested. The size and the functionalities look right. Do not tell me that it cost more then $100-$1500. Did anyone hear this thing or anything that Rowen does? Do they have US rep? Do they have any info in English?

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,734
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 7036
Reply to: 7018
Rowen's North American Distributor

It turned out that Rowen has the US rep - Steven Swabacker from Hi Sierra Hi-Fi.  The Sierra Hi-Fi has web site:    

http://hisierrahifi.com/index.html

The site has not a lot of information about the Rowen RIAA corrector but it is what it is. At least I mears that it has 64dB gain. My European sources told me that the Rowen Absolute Phono costs around 4,000 Swiss Fracs. No one I know heard it though….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Altius
Posts 1
Joined on 07-09-2010

Post #: 39
Post ID: 13956
Reply to: 2453
BBC Proms
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BBC Proms 2010
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