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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  455603  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  426107  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  386293  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  88164  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  26252  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  77569  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  26219  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  48372  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  107806  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  12967  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  10241  10-27-2010
04-30-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 165
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 181
Post ID: 23205
Reply to: 23012
Klaudio Tangential Tonearm.
A curious tonearm from Klaudio, video (prototype?) and another video.



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
05-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 32
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 182
Post ID: 23206
Reply to: 23205
Pivot tangential arms
This is hardly a novel concept. The Thales tonearm and a few others have addressed this issue. All else being equal, the tangential approach would be superior, but the added mechanical complexity of marrying a pivot with a linear tracking system might end up as a worse compromise.

Best,
Kris 
06-09-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 165
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 183
Post ID: 23255
Reply to: 23206
Field Coil Loaded Tonearm
"PrimaryControl is presenting a new bearing technology, the world’s first field coil loaded unipivot tonearm. This technique provides high torsional stability and a low moment of inertia for the tonearm. Bearing chatter, caused by energy transfer in the unipivot bearing, is eliminated.

In combination with the new developed ultra low resonance armwand, it leads to a low frequency reproduction and a sonically performance unmatched by any other unipivot tonearm design."


I do not have idea if it is something worthy to pay attention, or the usual bullshitism.

Thank you!



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
06-12-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 165
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 184
Post ID: 23258
Reply to: 23255
PrimaryControl
I forgot to add the reference of the PrimaryControl tonearm.



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
07-18-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
biondo1962
Posts 1
Joined on 01-02-2012

Post #: 185
Post ID: 23331
Reply to: 6901
Versa dynamics
hello Richard, I hope not to bother you,
I have read your old post, please can you tell me if you still have a contact with the Versa turntables?
thank you very much
kind regards
04-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 234
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 186
Post ID: 25369
Reply to: 23255
The Kiss of Death List
Well, the Ultimate Turntable. I had the chance to listen to some personally. Most have one in common:
Overrated and hyped from deaf "reviewers"
And .... price tag has no direct comparison to sonic excellence ... or a lot of technical features which are good .... for nothing 

It's time for the Naked Truth



....the kiss of death....

In Analog we will find everything but in my opinion, lots of those units became a Boutique Character (expensive bottle, cheap fluid inside). All those expensive units have one in common (when we look back): 
GREAT Reviews, lots of Hype and at the end of Day it was more or less nothing to write home about (sonically). Some examples?

Goldmund Reference
The Mother of Hype, but the moving Arm changes Azimuth in every groove, the table itself has a good soundstage, but details are all smeared AND it destroys every cantilever after some time.

Rockport Sirius III
The American Altar, but the Arm wire inside is so stiff that the Arm can not track the inner 3 tracks properly, it skips, the only way out is to use a very heavy cartridge, but the cantilever will be destroyed very soon. And the sound is ultra thin, completely lifeless without any body. Great engineering, missing the sonic target by a mile.

Montegiro
A super expensive German Turntable 30k+, endless rave and hype and during its demo at the High End Show the bearing broke. A typical example for Boutique. Now they are available for 1/5th price, company is out of business.

Continuum
Framers Finest. I listened to it 3 times, professionally set up from the Importer. 
2x it was defect and the 3 time the connected Phonostage had a problem (or the Arm wire, Phonamp, Cartridge). I always said "Mono IS interesting"
Anyway, that Company is also more or less out of Business what Australians wrote me. Buy replacement Parts NOW.

Airtangent
The Mother of of all Airliners. Super, super expensive at that time, Hype endless, bloody knees from Audiophiles - from kneeling in front of it - was normal, even more expensive with optional remote VTA....but it never worked properly. The Airflow in some areas was not constant, so..well, you can imagine...

NVS
The Mother of a "Game-Changer" Product, defect bearing while RMAF but some wrote, even with that defect bearing it sounded fantastic (great or?) and in some discussions in Seattle area some buyers wrote how happy they are now "being a member of the Club."
A pity that the thread about was deleted (the distributor did demand that) 
No knowledge (from the whole Chain Manufacturer-Distributor-User) about shipping, no knowledge about platter mechanism, no damping was a result of that damage and honestly, buying a product from "Engineers" who have absolutely no idea about technical connections ...well, good luck.

Thorens Reference
The Audiophile Answer from Germany to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Heavy and it will show every visitor "Hey, I am something serious"
In real life you can get the identical sonic quality from every 2-3k$ turntable today. But the motor management is good.

Wood Arms
Well, let's face the truth, a piece of wood at a string or 'in long' for 16K$ has to be touched from God AND made from some ultra secret, mystic material, stolen 
from the NASA...Energy transfer? What is THAT, we want Emotion... well, Boutique,...Geometry? Pardon, WHAT? The best bearing is no bearing... blubber...
Of course you need a 12k+++ Cartridge to get the full sonic impact the Arm is able to deliver

Linn
Well, even after 30 years they find revolutionary 'improvements'...in a way the ARC Company in analog. To catch the same customer again and again, that's brilliant. Sonically? When you want a different sound, all you have to do is to open the window... ultra BS

Of course, all owners, no matter from what expensive product, will write that their unit is an exception and is working like a charm etc. But let's face the 
facts: It is the money what counts. 
The wealthy Audiophile likes to show others how clever he is and what expensive units he owns, he wants the Respect to be accepted as an "Experienced Audiophile" but at the end of day, he also wants money when he sells that Sonic Wonder. 
Who writes "Yes, I have that T3F, Rockport, ...and it is really inferior, but I like it?" 
No one.





Kind Regards
Stitch
04-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 187
Post ID: 25370
Reply to: 25369
I proposed to declare a phrase "beyond reasonable doubts" as an adjective
It is interesting that you call $30.000 plus dollars  "super expensive". A few days ago somebody sent me a link to a review of a new TechDAS  turntable with a price tag of $380.000.  I wonder what kind adjectives would you choose  to use for that? 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 234
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 188
Post ID: 25371
Reply to: 25370
Rolling the Dice
 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is interesting that you call $30.000 plus dollars  "super expensive". A few days ago somebody sent me a link to a review of a new TechDAS  turntable with a price tag of $380.000.  I wonder what kind adjectives would you choose  to use for that? 

Marketing.  To show "WE are the Best" and want to be taken serious.

This game is normal
(TechDas won't do the same story from AF-1 again, it started in Japan Sales Price 28000 USD, then came to USA for 50000, then Bob Graham lifted it to 70000 and now it is around 90.000, still the same unit, no serious mods even when they call it "Premium" or is that one even more expensive ? ...

An example to get reputation

History of Clearaudio Insider Cartridge


Suchy (founder) from Clearaudio had no reputation in analog, one day he was among his Distributors and showed them the Cartridge.They asked him about the price and got no answer.He asked them instead: "What is the most expensive Cartridge today?" (He didn't know it)The answer was Koetsu whatever for 8000....His answer followed after: "The Insider will be 15000 then!"

Then 'Review' followed from that Uber-cartridge ...and when a Dealer wanted to have it, he did not get it as a single item. He had to buy some other Clearaudio Carts as a bundle ....  that is business..

I listened to it btw. it is high output, no details, but the owner was very proud of it and did expect respecting him as an serious audiophile. 
It was one of my darkest - listening - moments to be honest.


Kind Regards
Stitch
04-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 306
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 189
Post ID: 25378
Reply to: 25370
Wasn't there another premium TT called the AirForce?
I thought the Forsell TT was called the AirForce. What happened to them? Are the descendants now called TechDas?

Maybe someone can clarify: what does a TT need to do other than provide freedom from vibration, a place for a tonearm and speed stability? Actually speed stability can be provided by an external driver.
04-22-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 190
Post ID: 25379
Reply to: 25371
I have my doubts about big turntables.
I is interesting that most of the “expensive” TTs, with a difference to a degree of Continuum go for just one topology: mass loading. Yes back a Lechitsky with a bunch of math and theory was postulating that belt drive is fundamentally less advanced transfer faction then idle roll.  The guys who were running EMT 92y were very happy. I do not know if the Lechitsky “theory” was accurate, and I have my very high suspicion against any “theory” that clown was selling. What however was very truthful in his saying the any belt topology progressively get better transfer faction with rising the platter inertia, momentum and essentially mass. So, if we have a graph of rising mass, rising platter manufacturing cost and rising quality then somewhere it will be a very nice sweat spot. I do feel that somewhere around the mass of Micro RX5000 and no air suspension the TTs perform at the level that more sophisticated than 99% of the setups out there. The old RX5000 was in vicinity of a $3K and in my view it is how a good TT should cost. If people have VERY high demands for LF reproduction, have a playback that can handle it, are looking for a specific type of LF and have evolved understanding HOW LF should sound then those people might demand some extra quality from TT but they are is very low minority, we are talking about a few people around the world… and they are not those who pay $250K for a turntable.  
 
I do not have a super sophisticated playback, I have smart playback and I have well defend objectives of what I want and how to hear when I am listening. Still, having in my estimation a well performing installation I very much insist that the level of my TT performance is not something that even remotely bothers me or make me to look somewhere else. If I willing to invest let say 100K to improve sound then TT will not be a suspicion factor or a target of my attention. What I am trying to say is that I never make a secret that THE ONLY sensible rational for any person to change anything in his playback is to exercise this principle: 
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432 
 
So, I really would like to see the indomitable pimps like Mike Fremer and alike to proclaims the their current TT does not do this or that and in order to eliminate that precise shortcoming they need another TT. 
 
Also, I have a very high certainty that many sonic characteristic that commonly attributed to expense TTs are in fact is not the characteristics of the actual TTs. I feel that type of LF is different between large and expensive TTs but it need to understand (at least it is how I feel) that it is not that one is necessary one is better and another is worse. It is like the type of bass you get from exponential upper bass horn vs tratrix. They have different bass but neither of them are limited factor and might be worked out.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-26-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 234
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 191
Post ID: 25382
Reply to: 25379
I have my doubts about big turntables.
Yes. It depends on what someone wants (and what can follow)
- i just want to listen to a record / music
This can be done with a cheap Rega Turntable

The Problem starts, when you try a "Upgrade" , hear a difference and - now very dangerous- you ask yourself, what is responsible for this difference?

And now you can go up and you will find everything, small, big, bigger, thin platter, thick platter, suspension or not, different materials, simple technical solutions, complicated solutions, some show this sonically, some that, some are reliable, some need patience ..... and so on and on.

Then you have the ads, the usual game ... the more you can spend, the better will be the sonic pleasure

And finally, there are differences .... and now you are in the chain of those, who live from selling that stuff.  And the comments like "i like it...or "distortion is not distortion, it is a rhythm, it sounds natural "

Honestly, I am among the sick ones.
But I know, it is a idiotic business (in general, with some exceptions)

Systems.jpg



Kind Regards
Stitch
05-12-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 234
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 192
Post ID: 25409
Reply to: 25382
TechDas AirForce Zero
Had the chance for a Listening Demo and it really is one of the Ultimate Turntables
From sonics (excellent, way better than AF1), from technical solutions (really a lot of brain inside) and unfortunately ... from Price (400.000 USD)

TechDas AF0 - 6.jpg


TechDas AF0 - 1.jpg


TechDas AF0 - 2.jpg

TechDas AF0 - 3.jpg


TechDas AF0 - 5.jpg


When I understood right
Air Bearing for
- Platter
- Motor
- Feet (before they started they removed the front plate and used a hand pump for something, I guess the feet)
Vacuum for the record
and
Vacuum to remove the air from the multi layer platter (120 kg)
(here they demonstrated with it & without it -> no more 'ringing'/coloration like previous models showed)




Kind Regards
Stitch
05-12-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 306
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 193
Post ID: 25411
Reply to: 25409
That's nice you have friends that view $400k as chump change
There does seem to be a fair consensus the Airforce Zero (not to be confused with Forsell) is a success. I assume its success is due to controlling vibration. I believe US $400k is a sale price as reviewers say it will be Over $400k, not including the base. How much does one have to lean over the front to put a record on the platter? It's hard to judge from the photos.
05-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,617
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 194
Post ID: 25413
Reply to: 25411
Save your adjectives....
I would take deferent position, it would not be a common position but I would stick with it. I do sincerely feel that not in the “expensive” TT that we attribute to the “thighs responsible for quality of sound” in really has nothing to do with sound, all those Vacuums, air suspicions, and the alleged expenses spent to accomplish it in fact not necessarily directly related to the sound of TT has. I think that it is perfectly possible to make great sounding TT  very cheap, we jest do not know how to do it and the people who feel that they do know how to do it will not invest into it. This way we have the mastodons for $400K with a lot of irrelevant technologies and we have absolutely no knowledge how in reality the TT sound. Do you see a person who spent $400K admitted that his new investment sound no better then DJ TT for $250. Let me give you an example. The same company a few years old make Air Force 1 TT, I think it was the first they make. It was also very expensive TT with the expected list of the technological “advancements”. Well, I know as now two people who ultimately familiar with Air Force 1 sound and have then on own possession for prolong time and both of them admitted that the Air Force 1 sound like shit and they were not able to get out of Air Force the sound they wanted. What is the deference between the AirForce Zero and the AirForce 1, I do not mean the technological difference but our perception difference? The AirForce Zero is the AirForce One in 10 years. Did the TechDas leabne over the last 10 years how to make the TT properly and recalled the AirForce 1? I did not think so. It is the same people, the same TT and the same mind frame multiplied by a complete uniformity public and lack of QA from industry observer. So, skip to admire the AirForce Zero and wait for 5 year and to upreciate the new AirForce sub Zero++ that will feature antigravity tonearm, foamed Palladium platter suspended in a bath of Mercury, superconducted wiring and the motor power from AirForce’s own tokamak.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 195
Post ID: 25414
Reply to: 25409
Sub zero
I'm impressed that you could tell. I thought the system it was playing through was one of the poorer ones. But the new turntable is expensive & shiny. I'm sure they'll sell plenty regardless.
05-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 306
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 196
Post ID: 25416
Reply to: 25414
Did I misunderstand?
I thought Stitch was commenting about an audition with someone who actually had the Zero TT in their home per the photos? Thus the industry demo system wouldn't be applicable here.
05-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,182
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 197
Post ID: 25418
Reply to: 25416
"Perceived Value"?
Regardless of how much something costs, buyers like to think they are "getting something for the money". In this case, of course, the buyer needs to be  think this is "the best" TT, at least for long enough for the check to clear.  What does "the best" mean?  Well, the problem for sellers here is to convince buyers to want the TT enough to offer the amount of money the sellers will actually accept.  If the thing actually "sounds good", who would be able to establish this conclusively? It is enough for sellers to get the money, I think; and enough for buyers to believe they own "the best".  That all the foregoing has nothing to do with a "least approach" to design and implementation driven by aesthetic listening is well noted. But then, who really does it this way, anyhow? Certainly nobody in the "high end".


Paul S
05-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 198
Post ID: 25419
Reply to: 25416
Show stopper
That looks like the show installation to me.
05-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 306
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 199
Post ID: 25421
Reply to: 25419
Thanks for the reply
I saw the drink cups and the framed photo next to the TT so it seemed that it was in someone's home. I guess we need Stich to chime back in on that. If it was a commercial presentation, then yes the system would be an issue because you don't know how it would sound with a different TT presumably.
05-14-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 234
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 200
Post ID: 25422
Reply to: 25413
I guess in 10 years we'll get a million $ Turntable ...
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Well, I know as now two people who ultimately familiar with Air Force 1 sound and have then on own possession for prolong time and both of them admitted that the Air Force 1 sound like shit and they were not able to get out of Air Force the sound they wanted.  

Is there a definition of "sound like shit"?
Or, what was their hope?
I did listen to AF-1 a few times, some say, the sound is "cold". Or sterile or something like that. Some think, it is like a leveler, it makes all records "equal".... 
The AF Zero is indeed different, way more detail (I guess it has to do with better damping from the platter). And a better timing. The tonal color was correct, even with Transistor units.
The price is like it is. fair or not, who cares? It is for those who can afford it. The only difference for me, it is not the sonic crap like other very expensive turntables offered which also got the merit of being a ultimate Turntable. 
They made it Seiko Style in modern, all metal. Probably you get the same sonic results with other material mixes and cheaper. When you find one who knows what is responsible for what in parts selection...


Kind Regards
Stitch
Page 10 of 11 (207 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 7 8 9 10 11 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  455603  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  426107  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  386293  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  88164  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  26252  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  Will not work...  Analog Playback Forum     14  77569  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  26219  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  48372  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  107806  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  12967  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  10241  10-27-2010
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