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  »  New  Contributing factors in compressed sound..  Contributing factors of compressed sound....  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  24474  08-23-2007
  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  173024  09-09-2007
  »  New  DeCompressor - Puncher Processor for WaveLab..  Talking about the free cheese …...  Didital Things  Forum     1  15710  10-04-2009
10-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,285
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 8493
Reply to: 8493
How idiots destroy sound.

At my site I many times span the subject that not the regress of engineering accomplishments is something that screws up sound nowadays and keep up in Dark Age of sound reproduction but rather a penetration of idiots in the sphere of professional audio. Sure they do not care mostly but even among those who cares many just too stupid to know the deference. After the years Americans begin to learn what happen if a government is idiot, However, as much as citizens are unwilling hostages of governments we, the  audio users, are hostages  and subordinates of the audio professionals who OWN sonic aspect of musical event, the  professionals who record and publish recordings.

Well, I might almost understand when the audio-professionals vandalize sound in order to make money. What I however never was able to understand why those idiots vandalize sound without any reasons: juts best the fucking can! This pisses me a lot. If a person has his stupid hands on a gain control then it does NOT mean that he need to ride it up and down juts ONLY because he is able to do so. It was so then would the fact that I own a gun (I do not) give me a rights to shot people?

The case to point.  Today BSO played M6. In the very end of the Final movement, right before the last touch of the double basses there is a long pose and a very strong final blow. That blow rises from silence and a good orchestra starting very much together produce almost DC-like sound. BSO did fine but it was broadcasted like a sparrows’ fart. Well, the compression has eaten it you say. Well not really. The blow’s maxima is at minus .9dB and some other fragments on the broadcast go up to .12dB.  Whatever calibration of this limiter is there was some room in there. So, what happen? What happen was that some kind of idiot who was sitting in the broadcast booth decided right before the blow to increase the gain for a few DBs that male the compressor to kick on sooner, it is juts my presumption. It is very well seen at the image below and it is very well heard at the file that I upload.

It is what I always say: any technology in hands of barbarian produces barbarian results…

http://www.mediafire.com/?v0mtnmyikz2   (MP3 file of a 3.3meg)

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 2
Post ID: 8495
Reply to: 8493
Loudness war
Hello Romy!

Here is an example from pop music:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
But It could be possible you don´t hear the difference. I originally listened to it on an other one´s computer and it was impressive. During listening to it again on my computer now I didn´t even hear a difference. My player is very good in suppressing the metallic-sounding fourier artefacts, but seems to kill dynamics completely. So with pleasing-sounding data reduced audio your complains seem to be obsolete.

BTW:
In the EU they want to switch off FM radio in 2012, what about the US?

Oliver
10-14-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,285
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 8502
Reply to: 8495
Some fans are complaining...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122228767729272339.html
 
"Music released today typically has a dynamic range only a fourth to an eighth as wide as that of the 1990s."


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Andy Simpson
Posts 42
Joined on 10-21-2007

Post #: 4
Post ID: 8574
Reply to: 8493
Sounds like....
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

At my site I many times span the subject that not the regress of engineering accomplishments is something that screws up sound nowadays and keep up in Dark Age of sound reproduction but rather a penetration of idiots in the sphere of professional audio. Sure they do not care mostly but even among those who cares many just too stupid to know the deference. After the years Americans begin to learn what happen if a government is idiot, However, as much as citizens are unwilling hostages of governments we, the  audio users, are hostages  and subordinates of the audio professionals who OWN sonic aspect of musical event, the  professionals who record and publish recordings.

Well, I might almost understand when the audio-professionals vandalize sound in order to make money. What I however never was able to understand why those idiots vandalize sound without any reasons: juts best the fucking can! This pisses me a lot. If a person has his stupid hands on a gain control then it does NOT mean that he need to ride it up and down juts ONLY because he is able to do so. It was so then would the fact that I own a gun (I do not) give me a rights to shot people?

The case to point.  Today BSO played M6. In the very end of the Final movement, right before the last touch of the double basses there is a long pose and a very strong final blow. That blow rises from silence and a good orchestra starting very much together produce almost DC-like sound. BSO did fine but it was broadcasted like a sparrows’ fart. Well, the compression has eaten it you say. Well not really. The blow’s maxima is at minus .9dB and some other fragments on the broadcast go up to .12dB.  Whatever calibration of this limiter is there was some room in there. So, what happen? What happen was that some kind of idiot who was sitting in the broadcast booth decided right before the blow to increase the gain for a few DBs that male the compressor to kick on sooner, it is juts my presumption. It is very well seen at the image below and it is very well heard at the file that I upload.

It is what I always say: any technology in hands of barbarian produces barbarian results…

http://www.mediafire.com/?v0mtnmyikz2   (MP3 file of a 3.3meg)

The Cat


This sounds/looks like the work of a noise-gate combined with a compressor (or 10) and about 25 mics....

Andy
10-23-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Andy Simpson
Posts 42
Joined on 10-21-2007

Post #: 5
Post ID: 8605
Reply to: 8574
Second thoughts....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Having made my last comment based on what I 'heard' via my laptop speakers, I took the clip to the workshop monitors last night to have a further listen - not to examine the weird processing, but to come to a refreshed idea of what kind of sound comes out of the average broadcast.

My first impression was that you were more right than me. Actually, to me it sounded something like a mic-channel was turned on & off again (but could still have been a noise-gate opening & closing with an interpolated 'ramp').

My second impression was of incredulity that this could pass for professional recording, not only in the accidents but in the general quality.

My third thought was to ask, do you find this listenable (generally speaking)?

Andy
10-23-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,285
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 8609
Reply to: 8605
Well, I will see more in a few days...
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Andy Simpson wrote:
Having made my last comment based on what I 'heard' via my laptop speakers, I took the clip to the workshop monitors last night to have a further listen - not to examine the weird processing, but to come to a refreshed idea of what kind of sound comes out of the average broadcast.

My first impression was that you were more right than me. Actually, to me it sounded something like a mic-channel was turned on & off again (but could still have been a noise-gate opening & closing with an interpolated 'ramp').

My second impression was of incredulity that this could pass for professional recording, not only in the accidents but in the general quality.

My third thought was to ask, do you find this listenable (generally speaking)?


Andy,

Yes, it is what I was thinking: they had many microphones and before the blast they turn some of them on to highlight some sections or instrument but the microphones were too hot and when the blast went off it was killed by compressor, which was sitting on the whole signal. I would agree with your second and thought impression – it is bad but it is not indicative for “professional broadcasts”. Yes, it is hardly listenable.

BTW, in 2 days the very same concert will be broadcasted buy different station live-to-tape. It would be VERY interning to see what change to sound it will be. I do not know if it was the problem with recording or the problem with post-recording possessing. It was “live” but it was WCRB – he station that does a LOT with signal before sent it out. Not the last is that WCRB broad in the same band in HD – something that brings incredible amount of noise in FM band, even with very postdetection filters. It a few days it will be WGBH’s live-to-tape broadcast – it very different sonic culture and I am interested about the result.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-24-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Andy Simpson
Posts 42
Joined on 10-21-2007

Post #: 7
Post ID: 8618
Reply to: 8609
The chances of improvement with different barbarians?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Andy,

Yes, it is what I was thinking: they had many microphones and before the blast they turn some of them on to highlight some sections or instrument but the microphones were too hot and when the blast went off it was killed by compressor, which was sitting on the whole signal. I would agree with your second and thought impression – it is bad but it is not indicative for “professional broadcasts”. Yes, it is hardly listenable.

BTW, in 2 days the very same concert will be broadcasted buy different station live-to-tape. It would be VERY interning to see what change to sound it will be. I do not know if it was the problem with recording or the problem with post-recording possessing. It was “live” but it was WCRB – he station that does a LOT with signal before sent it out. Not the last is that WCRB broad in the same band in HD – something that brings incredible amount of noise in FM band, even with very postdetection filters. It a few days it will be WGBH’s live-to-tape broadcast – it very different sonic culture and I am interested about the result.

The Cat


It will be interesting to see 'what happens' and how the two can be compared.

I'm still amazed at such incompetence at this level but not surprised.

Andy
10-26-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,285
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 8632
Reply to: 8609
A 'different sonic culture' = other type of garbage
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:

BTW, in 2 days the very same concert will be broadcasted buy different station live-to-tape. It would be VERY interning to see what change to sound it will be. I do not know if it was the problem with recording or the problem with post-recording possessing. It was “live” but it was WCRB – he station that does a LOT with signal before sent it out. Not the last is that WCRB broad in the same band in HD – something that brings incredible amount of noise in FM band, even with very postdetection filters. It a few days it will be WGBH’s live-to-tape broadcast – it very different sonic culture and I am interested about the result.

So, what, the WGBH did broadcasted the M6 live-to-tape with…horrible sound. Did they destroy the whole sound purely intentionally?  The finals final blow however was not screwed up – the graph even does not look as the same music as the compressor needed time to recover perhaps. The small MP3 file of the same fragment is attached. I have no idea what those idiots do that with sound, interestingly that it is absolutely unnecessary for them to do what they do. Why the fuck they do it I have no idea! If they were doctor then it might be a malpractice charge but here is a complete un-punishable barbarism going on…

http://www.mediafire.com/?t1xuycq9my8 The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Andy Simpson
Posts 42
Joined on 10-21-2007

Post #: 9
Post ID: 8643
Reply to: 8632
Malpractice - did you complain to the station involved?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

So, what, the WGBH did broadcasted the M6 live-to-tape with…horrible sound. Did they destroy the whole sound purely intentionally?  The finals final blow however was not screwed up – the graph even does not look as the same music as the compressor needed time to recover perhaps. The small MP3 file of the same fragment is attached. I have no idea what those idiots do that with sound, interestingly that it is absolutely unnecessary for them to do what they do. Why the fuck they do it I have no idea! If they were doctor then it might be a malpractice charge but here is a complete un-punishable barbarism going on… The caT


Often, live to tape means that a multi-mic setup is 'mixed' live and the stereo 'mix' is recorded (eg. to DAT) at the pre-broadcast processors stage. This usually means that 'mixing mistakes', which are encouraged by the multi-mic setup, are recorded and present in any subsequent broadcast.

It is most likely that the errors of the 'mixing engineer' were made without the spotlight of the heavy broadcast compression/limiting/eq and he himself would most likely be horrified to find how his mistakes became extremely obvious under this processing.

In my view, the engineer should be monitoring at the post-broadcast stage, where he can hear the effects of his work via the heavy broadcast processing, but he may not have been able or paid to do that.

This is something like a woman who applies heavy makeup in a bathroom with a 40w lightbulb, or worse, by candlelight, and is then seen in bright daylight.

Andy
11-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Vasyachkin
Brooklyn, NY, USA
Posts 47
Joined on 10-16-2008

Post #: 10
Post ID: 8831
Reply to: 8493
Playing with knobs
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
If a person has his stupid hands on a gain control then it does NOT mean that he need to ride it up and down juts ONLY because he is able to do so.


but Romy, he has to make it look like he is working hard. he can't just sit there and watch the knob. he would get fired for sleeping on the job Smile

here is a song about playing with the knob for you:

http://www.box.net/shared/static/rcfnybp9o7.mp3



visit my site:

http://www.diy-av.net
Page 1 of 1 (10 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Contributing factors in compressed sound..  Contributing factors of compressed sound....  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  24474  08-23-2007
  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  173024  09-09-2007
  »  New  DeCompressor - Puncher Processor for WaveLab..  Talking about the free cheese …...  Didital Things  Forum     1  15710  10-04-2009
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