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  »  New  Sansui TU-X1 Broadcast monitor...  Replace all audio coupling......  Off Air Audio Forum     46  301309  06-20-2007
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09-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1
Post ID: 8179
Reply to: 8179
TU-X1 setup
I have just today received the Sansui TU-X1 and set it up in my system.  It is very unusual sounding compared to other tuners I have heard.

It is very detailed and has excellent tonal balance.  It is accurate, but in a softly natural way, and it seems to have a natural way of unfolding the sounds which is at once soporific and envigorating.

Now, the interesting things is the way it presents the sounds, like small alien shapes.  I can best explain this thus: the presence expands and contracts with the sound, as if speaking or playing into the microphone at the time of the recording made a waveform that was reproduced, like a three dimensional object that exists only so long as there is light to shine on it.  Take away the light and it collapses to nothingness.  It lacks the reality of a singer or musician whose presence or motivations you can sense even in a dimly lit room.

Does this make sense?  Well, I am really just wondering if this is normal or perhaps there is something about the tuner that needs to be adjusted.  Records and CDs are playing normally, BTW.

Adrian
09-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 8181
Reply to: 8179
Debugging Sansui TU-X1

Adrian,

I am not sure if I understand you correctly but if I do then I did NOT experience this effect with both  of my TU-X1.  Does is exist only with one station? If yes, then the station might possess signal in some odd way…

You might check the output stage by driving the TU-X1’s internal generator and looking at the scope the cleanness of sinusoid. You can also to look what the whole tuner does with a clean wave. You need to buy a couple dozen dollars transmitter and set to TU-X1 a signal from generator.

Do not forget it is 30 years old devise and anything might be wrong with it. To me the absolutely the best way to check sound of tuner for defect is to hear piano play.  If anything is wrong then modulations and distortions are very auditable at the key strike attacks…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lwood
Posts 5
Joined on 11-25-2008

Post #: 3
Post ID: 8967
Reply to: 8179
You've got an issue...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, you've got an issue of some kind.  Start with getting an 'alignment' for it....not one that just aligns the tuner dial with the station
number, but a front end algnment....there should be someone in SF who can do this for $100.

My TU-X1 was the best tuner I've ever had, bar none.  Deep base, unbelievable soundstage depth, just a pure joy to listen to.

One thing all should know, DO NOT use the 75 ohm connector, you will get a better signal using the 300 ohm connectors, or have someone
do a 'balunectomy' for you...for help go to www.fmtunerinfo.com and you'll find the directions there.

Good luck, L'wood
11-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,104
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 4
Post ID: 8969
Reply to: 8179
Digital Effect or Caps?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian, how disappointing.

I have heard effects like this from digital processing, where "space" is not continuous but only happens when "there is an event in it", like the Hindu "breathing" of the Universe.  Stations certainly process their sound differently, and also differently at different times of day, etc., but they all process heavily.  Most use digital methods these days, including the strict "I/O" "gates" that produce the type of problem you describe (if I understand you correctly, of dourse).

I have also heard something like this - centering on ambience/space - with bad caps.

And one can't expect caps to live for 30 years; some of those caps are likely to be bad.

Good luck!

Best regards,
Paul S
11-26-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 8982
Reply to: 8179
The TU-X1's collapse?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Adrian, how do you find your TU-X1 after those two month? Did anything changed? Do you observer the same effect on all stations? How about switching it in mono?

I have to say that I can’t be happier with TU-X1. Particularly recently  after I spent time bitching  to program directors of my local classical stations about their sound quality and was able to get some very tangible improvement in their sound. If you can play 88/24 then I can send you some recording from my TU-X1 and you might comment if your “collapse to nothingness” effect manifests itself on my tuner and my stations. Who know, it might be learning and beneficial for both of us.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 6
Post ID: 9002
Reply to: 8982
TU-X1 two months after
fiogf49gjkf0d
Now two months later, it seems the unit in the first few weeks needed to settle in. The effect of collapsing sound images gradually has gone away. Now, the unit before it warms up still retains some of the "silky soft accuracy" character, but this subsequently fades to a position where I cannot identify any particular character of the tuner, and I hear just the music that is being played.

Adrian
11-28-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 9003
Reply to: 9002
The good Sansui tuner
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yep, the TU-X1 is just wonderful. Find someone to align it, have a good antenna, good attenuator (it is hard to use it without one) and headphones to set the attenuator right – it is all that might ever need from FM. BTW, are you planning to record anything? We here in Boston have a lot of KDFC Rick Malon’s broadcasts from Davies Symphony Hall via our local WHRB. Also, there are a lot of people out there who love to propose to modify and to improve the TU-X1. Be careful with it and might be done but very accurately. In fact I spoke with a few modification specialists and was a bit afraid what they proposed. My own modification projects when also not too far. The right modification for this tuner I did not see anybody propose.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-29-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 8
Post ID: 9006
Reply to: 9003
Modifying TU-X1?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Also, there are a lot of people out there who love to propose to modify and to improve the TU-X1. Be careful with it and might be done but very accurately. In fact I spoke with a few modification specialists and was a bit afraid what they proposed. My own modification projects when also not too far. The right modification for this tuner I did not see anybody propose. <BR><BR>The Cat
Honestly for now, the character of the tuner is unobtrusive enough that I notice mostly the problems I have with the preamplifier and the electricity. However, I would be interested about what you had thought at this point to be modified (I recall your experiments before and comparing your two Sansui tuners before and after, but I wonder how you feel now some time later).

If you know a specialist out in this area, then let me know. I was thinking to get the tuner aligned and have a local guy, Evgeniy, recommended to me to do it. However, I have not been unhappy with the sound to really want anyone to mess with the tuner at this point. Adrian
11-29-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 9008
Reply to: 9006
Some aged thoughts about TU-X1
fiogf49gjkf0d
 drdna wrote:
Honestly for now, the character of the tuner is unobtrusive enough that I notice mostly the problems I have with the preamplifier and the electricity. However, I would be interested about what you had thought at this point to be modified (I recall your experiments before and comparing your two Sansui tuners before and after, but I wonder how you feel now some time later).

Well, in my experimental modified TU-X1 at I’s best time was able to get sound identical or virtually identical to my stock version. So, it might be recognized a failure of modification objectives. However, my experimental TU-X1 did not sound as good as my main TU-X1 in stock version – so go figure… My modifications were not really modifications, but just parts swapping in critical locations of output stage. In fact I did not see anybody propose any more or less making sense modification of TU-X1, like moving the automated gain control sensor behind the second filter, instead of having it before it. (This is why the tuner inclined for easy overload). Still, flipping the part on shell be very accurate as the parts that Sansui used in TU-X1 are very good. I for instance was trying to replace the PS filtering caps but after a while I put the original caps back – trios vintage top of the line Nichicon are extremely good. My attitude with my main TU-X1 is “do not harm” as I pretty much have no complains of frustration to it’s sound and I would be pity to loose what I have now from this tuner. I have some people told me about specific mods but none of them were able to describe to me the Sonic benefits they were able to get after their mods in the terms that I would consider not idiotic. I told them about it and they stopped recommend me the modes, I wonder why…

I sold my “experimental” TU-X1. My main TU-X1 now works together with quite modified Rohde & Schwarz tuner and decoder, offering practically identical sound but slightly different quietly of reception that all together boil down in the amount if background noise. Why do I mention the Schwarz? Because it is very nice for sake of reference if one would like to have tuner “modified” to have another then TU-X1 tuner with the very same sound – it always nice to monitor how far the modification take you forward or backward. The reason I say it because sometimes in future I am planning to have one modification done with my main TU-X1. I was thinking to replace the 10uF electrolytic cap right after detector and before the decoder with wet tantalum. They worked phenomenal in Schwarz. That is all that I consider for my TU-X1.

TU-X1_Circuit.jpg

Ok, what my main TU-X1 has different from the stock version - very few mods and they mostly logical. The out pots are bypassed – there is no need for them not to mention that they add output impedance to this tuner. The DC blocking capacitors after the out stage are bypassed as well. Those caps are not necessary as it has just 45mV before them - there is no need to block it. Even in my case what I have A/D processor after the TU-X1 the very minor DC is not a big deal as Pacific Microsonics has own DC canceling input bias. I also so not use (if I rember corectly) any resistors after the Sansui’s output op-mps. They are old and “slow” type op-mps  and they might drive load without any oscillation comforting resistors, at least I do not measured or heard any oscillation in my case with my cables. Still to be on a save side I would have there 20-50R resistor. (The originals R17 of 560R is shorted in my TU-X1 as I would like to have as low output impedance as possible). The last mod that I have is the change of output feedback resistor to get more voltage out of the tuner. My TU-X1 give I think 8-9dB more then stock version. It is just a freakishness of mine – I like all my sources to have similar output in order do not use volume control too much when I switch sources….
 drdna wrote:
If you know a specialist out in this area, then let me know. I was thinking to get the tuner aligned and have a local guy, Evgeniy, recommended to me to do it. However, I have not been unhappy with the sound to really want anyone to mess with the tuner at this point.
Alignment of a tuner by a person why knows what he does is absolutely necessary and never heard. In worst case you will have juts more selectivity and sensitivity. More sensitivity – less noise, I do not think you would complain. The aliment of front end, IF and setting the separation in AMX stage shell not mess anything with tuner if the person is knows what he does. It is also very good to have you aliment alignment technical locally as you certainly do NOT what to ship the tuner after it was aligned.

The Cat

PS: If some would find for me a source where I might buy those output op-amps I would appreciate it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 10
Post ID: 9087
Reply to: 9008
TU-X1 modifications
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
My attitude with my main TU-X1 is “do not harm” as I pretty much have no complains of frustration to it’s sound and I would be pity to loose what I have now from this tuner. I have some people told me about specific mods but none of them were able to describe to me the Sonic benefits they were able to get after their mods in the terms that I would consider not idiotic.
After reading about the TU-X1 heavily modified in:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=9084#9084

I was considering whether to send th tuner to this Mr. Chow at

http://www.componentplususa.com/pages/upgrades.html

but of course I am hesitant because, after I have the TU-X1 because of its wonderful tone. I do not want that to be lost with some upgrade to "better parts" like the prominently mentioned Blackgate capacitors. It would be helpful to hear about some experiences with before and after the modifications.

The TU-X1 continues to evolve in its sound over the time I have had it. Initially I had the odd character of expanding and collapsing images in the soundstage. Now, the soundstage is very much not an issue, that is to say it has become less obvious overall in listening. At the same time, the liveliness or "random" factor in the sound has diminished as well. I cannot complain about the tonal balance; the sounds are very precisely soft and silky without being excessively emphasized. It seems correct, but it is somehow less involving emotionally.

Adrian
12-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 9089
Reply to: 9087
Why don’t you do it yourself?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:

 Romy the Cat wrote:
 
My attitude with my main TU-X1 is “do not harm” as I pretty much have no complains of frustration to it’s sound and I would be pity to loose what I have now from this tuner. I have some people told me about specific mods but none of them were able to describe to me the Sonic benefits they were able to get after their mods in the terms that I would consider not idiotic. 
 
After reading about the TU-X1 heavily modified in:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=9084#9084

I was considering whether to send th tuner to this Mr. Chow at

http://www.componentplususa.com/pages/upgrades.html

but of course I am hesitant because, after I have the TU-X1 because of its wonderful tone. I do not want that to be lost with some upgrade to "better parts" like the prominently mentioned Blackgate capacitors. It would be helpful to hear about some experiences with before and after the modifications.

The TU-X1 continues to evolve in its sound over the time I have had it. Initially I had the odd character of expanding and collapsing images in the soundstage. Now, the soundstage is very much not an issue, that is to say it has become less obvious overall in listening. At the same time, the liveliness or "random" factor in the sound has diminished as well. I cannot complain about the tonal balance; the sounds are very precisely soft and silky without being excessively emphasized. It seems correct, but it is somehow less involving emotionally.

Adrian

Well, it might be something is still not right with your TU-X1 or person some is not right with me. My TU-X1 is the most “involving” among all of audio sources and I have no absolutely no complain in this department.

Regarding the modifications – I do not know. If you tuner was not alight then it is unquestionably need to be done to make sure that the tuner dose what it topology permits. As far as the parts swapping – you are at your own to decide.  I would call Mr. Chow and would ask his views how the specific part exchange will let sonically lead to specific sonic consequences. I would see how comfortably he will be defending his modifications.

You see there is a catch in all of it. It takes a different mindset to properly align tuner and to voice tuner with parts. To properly align tuner any BS about the tuner sound and sonic character shell be dropped and person shell be motivated and fallow only he his knowledge of RF sections and his ability to properly measure proposer things, his ability (and willingness) to interpret the measurements, and his ability (and willingness) to react upon the interpretations. It sound like it is hay nerdy work but in fact it is not and a good alignment in many instances is very creative process, but the process that is very much bounded with objectively of fact. Many technicians who do good alignment do not even listed to tuner and it is what I would prefer. To make the assessment what parts after detector might be exchanged in order to make it sound “different” usually requires another side of brain… It is possible that it might be done by one person but I would be cautious with those expectations.

BTW, you can make your own changes of some parts on your TU-X1, after it was aligned. It is very simple, he TU-X1 has very easy access, the schematic is available and the parts are well marked. You can do one per time and tom observes what happens in very well-controlled conditions. The parts change in output section will not affect your alignment.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 12
Post ID: 9097
Reply to: 9089
Modifications of TU-X1
fiogf49gjkf0d
I sent Mr Chow an e-mail, but have received no reply yet. However, the interesting thing is that tonight the music on the local classical channel was fantastic. Maybe the electricity was particularly good today? I think I am still very much in the learning stage of getting to know the sound of the TU-X1.

The variation of sound with electricity, however, more than ever I find intriguing regarding in what way small signal variations and noise can impact the sound. I believe that if we can systematically analyze the effects, we can come to a solution.

Adrian
12-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 9099
Reply to: 9097
TU-X1 as a cultural realty transmission machine.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
I sent Mr Chow an e-mail, but have received no reply yet. However, the interesting thing is that tonight the music on the local classical channel was fantastic. Maybe the electricity was particularly good today? I think I am still very much in the learning stage of getting to know the sound of the TU-X1.

The variation of sound with electricity, however, more than ever I find intriguing regarding in what way small signal variations and noise can impact the sound. I believe that if we can systematically analyze the effects, we can come to a solution.

I found that my TU-X1 is much less susceptive to electricity problems then my other sources. I have no idea why. I generally have no problems or concerns about the TU-X1, I do not like some aspects of its front end but it is another subject. Sound-wide I feel it is perfect.  Still, I am also at learning stage of getting to know Sound via TU-X1. I was not home entire Friday but I have scheduled the BSO’s matinee live broadest. Today I head what it was and it was fantastic and in a way unique as it was the ONLY concert and on Saturday it was completely different program

The concert started with Schubert’s Fantasie in F minor for piano four-hands. It was played by Daniel Barenboim and believe or not but by James Levine himself. What the Sound they produced! It was true a celebration! Then Daniel Barenboim proceed to Beethoven’s Piano Concerto No. 3 with BSO and Levine’s conducting.  Very good play! You want more celebration? You can not get more than this: the next in concert was world premiere of Elliot Carter’s “Interventions for piano and orchestra”. This premiere was dedicated to Carter 100 birthday on that took place on Thursday and Elliot Carter himself was on the stage at the “Interventions…” premiere. It needs to be heard LIVE to get all that Boston Symphony atmosphere and how all that “human electricity” intermingles with music. The concert finished by Levine leading BSO with Stravinsky’s “Rite of Spring”, that was OK but I am sure it would be more fun if Stravinsky was sitting at the second balcony…

I mean a tuner is not only about sonic effect but also about some “realty transmission” and “realty preservation” if you record live broadcast. There is something about TU-X1 that make it very powerful tool in this journey…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 9108
Reply to: 9006
Practical TU-X1 modification
fiogf49gjkf0d

 drdna wrote:
However, I would be interested about what you had thought at this point to be modified...&nbsp;

Adrian,

here is the LIVE recording from today via TU-X1 (the file is 94Meg in 24/88). Even considering that you do not know how our Boston Handel and Haydn Society sounds in Symphony Hall, still, purely abstractly, what– what specific character of sound you would like to modify of improved?

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=90bf495150d17540d2db6fb9a8902bda

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 15
Post ID: 9109
Reply to: 9108
Live radio, we need more of it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
here is the LIVE recording from today via TU-X1. Purely abstractly, what– what specific character of sound you would like to modify of improved?
Of course it is NOT being compared to playing directly through the TU-X1, so this is a caveat which must be considered. However:

Compared to the broadcasts on my TU-X1, this live broadcast is simply dramatically more alive, more dynamic, more involving. One cannot help but be drawn into the music emotionally and begin to think immediately about the compositional structure. I found it impossible not to do so. This is not happening at all with my TU-X1 currently. My engagement with the music is possible but remains an effort.

The timbre is correct: violins are identified as such, etc. The singers have the sound of living people. With my TU-X1, the musicians lack the breath of life. The attack and decay of notes is not quite correct and is overall dulled and rounded, and there is a subtle grain I would describe as sort of a thin glaze coating the sound. Subtle transients are entirely lost.

The placement of musicians in relation to the microphones is crisp. The sound is natural, as one would hear with musicians playing live. With my TU-X1, the three dimensionality of sounds is accurate, but I must strain identify it. It remains an artificial construct.

In contrast, it lacks a certain cohesion on massed strings and voices, and there is a bit of sibilance I would like to eliminate, but this may be the .wav playback.

However, it does not resolve whether my TU-X1 needs fixing or whether my local radio station is to blame.

Sad
Adrian
12-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 9110
Reply to: 9109
Debugging the imagination blockage with TU-X1
fiogf49gjkf0d

Adrian,

when you comment that “live broadcast is simply dramatically more alive, more dynamic, more involving. One cannot help but be drawn into the music emotionally and begin to think immediately about the compositional structure” then did you made a general assumption you described your practical experiences with another tuner? Was this another tuner getting the station?  I mean what you getting your station with TU-X1 and experience this “imagination blockage” then can you run another tuner from the same antenna and to get “think immediately about the compositional structure”. I mean that if was the case then it would be worth to look into design idiosyncrasies of that another tuner and to see what in it might be so in like to your  particular station and to your particular load.  It is also possible that your tuner is not aligned, it will do it. Look at the following site and get estimate how strong your stations:

http://www.radio-locator.com/

With the max out of your antenna, do you get 100% signal’s strength on the TU-X1 meter?  Doe you multipath is moving when a strong modulation going through? Do you have any auditable background FM noise? Do you use an antenna attenuator? I just try to estimate the state of your TU-X1.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 17
Post ID: 9111
Reply to: 9110
State of the live broadcast
fiogf49gjkf0d
I began to research live broadcasts in my area, and I found there is one station that broadcasts live every Saturday morning some local folk music, readings, sort of variety show, from a local club I have actually been to in Berkeley. I had no idea. So it will be instructive to listen next weekend, when I believe they will be broadcasting a performance of zydeco music. Still, it is better than nothing.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Then can you run another tuner from the same antenna.
Well, I have sold the Sequerra. The Magnum Dynalab continues to sound as it always has, very much a tuner for the sounds, but not the Sound. It does not solve any problems, in fact TU-X1 is superior in this respect.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is also possible that your tuner is not aligned, it will do it.
Probably, huh.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
With the max out of your antenna, do you get 100% signal’s strength on the TU-X1 meter? Does you multipath is moving when a strong modulation going through? Do you have any audible background FM noise? Do you use an antenna attenuator?
I checked several local stations with good strength. The meter goes up to the max, with good movement of the multipath. There is absolutely no background noise; it is black quiet. No attenuator was used.

Adrian
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  »  New  Sansui TU-X1 Broadcast monitor...  Replace all audio coupling......  Off Air Audio Forum     46  301309  06-20-2007
  »  New  The FM Stereo and Multiplex MPX decoders..  The new life of Rohde & Schwarz decoder....  Off Air Audio Forum     12  103114  05-02-2008
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