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05-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,249
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 4342
Reply to: 4342
Haniwa Cybernetic Audio System

Here is a new Horn company Haniwa Cybernetic Audio System. As anyone else they present something “new”, “revolutionary”, “first in the world” and “no where else available”. I never have seen or heard them, though they are local in Massachusetts and perhaps I will come across to them sometimes. They will be also presented in NY next week. I will not be coming of course but it be heard.  The Cogent’s Steve caught them in California where they, according to Steve, were warming up this installation before to demo it in NY. I do not know if it is true but if it is then it would be commendable as the Morons usually drop at the show the dead cold new equipment that is usually revolting…. Anyhow, the Haniwa company:

http://www.haniwaaudio.com/

I read their presentation file:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/pdf/HaniwaWebBroch.pdf

I do not like some from it and I even found some of their comments quite bogus. Still, they are perfectly within their birth-rights to do whatever they do.  The more horns the merrier…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,037
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 4343
Reply to: 4342
Maxwell Maltz's LOUDspeakers
Cybernetic phase blah blah blah...

I (barely) managed to resist commenting about those pathetic little 4" drivers huffing away in that long narrow box, but I can't pass this one up!

Just the buzz-words alone; it's got to be a translation thing!

Too absolutely hilarious!

This one has all the makings for some great wagering lines, eg: 1) How long until the first glowing review?  2) Which will appear first, the review or the advertisement?  3) How much will the price go up after the review, as a percentage? 3a) as a dollar amount, etc. ad nauseum...

Anyone who's into digital processing, here's your chance to take a quantum leap [forward]...

Psycho!

Thanks for sharing

Best regards,
Paul S
05-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,249
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 4346
Reply to: 4343
The typical audio literature…
Well, I think it was juts a bad translational as some of the things they said in there are so off the wall they it sound as they were written by a 10 years old. I more interesting what 3” compression driver they used… I wonder if it is 3” exit, or 3” cone… of it is 2” driver but digitally modified and converted into 3” of the "vertual point source"… Oh, well…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 155
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 4
Post ID: 4347
Reply to: 4343
They will still offer so called "big sound "...
which most of horn guys just love  and you Paul with your OB's are not blessed with Wink .As to those pathetic pipes your right of course but whats really pathetic that in most areas ( accept bass and scale ) those pipes worth maybe $100 are in pair with most of high- end junk offerings on the market. Regards, W
05-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Ronnie
Stockholm
Posts 81
Joined on 06-30-2005

Post #: 5
Post ID: 4351
Reply to: 4342
Haniwa
Have you forgiven them for this model now? :-)

UglyHorn1.jpg
05-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,249
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 4355
Reply to: 4347
So what?
 Wojtek wrote:
.As to those pathetic pipes .... those pipes worth maybe $100 are in pair with most of high-end junk offerings on the market.
First of all it would be true only in hip-hope music. Second of all: so what that those pipes are in pair with most of high-end junk offerings on the market? It does not say anything positive about the pipes but rather it depicts the sad state of high-end offerings. I would not argue it… still I feel the job of a critic should not be to dig out and to glorifiy crap but to distinct good from bad... or at least try publicly to learn how to distinct ....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 155
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 7
Post ID: 4356
Reply to: 4355
So nothing
I just noted that they are not worst than majority of the market offerings which of course doesn't  make them any good neither. I think the article is directed for student budget listeners .Either pipes with digital amp or slick boombox.
05-16-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Henry
Posts 1
Joined on 01-27-2007

Post #: 8
Post ID: 4415
Reply to: 4342
I heard them
I've heard these Haniwa speakers on Sunday. They sounded terrible. My niece and her boyfriend went on Friday and couldn't get Kubo to play something other than classical music. When playing classical music, the sound was okay but kinda boomy. I found out why he insisted on his own musical selections on Sunday when I was successful in getting Kubo to play a Lisa Ono song from a CD. The bass that came out was so muddy and wooly and boomy as though it coming out of a barrel. Kubo ended up stopping the cd player midway through the song and handing me my disc back and saying that there was something wrong with the recording! Luckily for me I used that same song in many other rooms and it sounded absolutely awesome, particularly in the TAD speaker room using Model 2 speakers, which I thought were the best of the show.
05-16-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,249
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 4416
Reply to: 4415
Haniwa and TADs
 Henry wrote:
I've heard these Haniwa speakers on Sunday. They sounded terrible. My niece and her boyfriend went on Friday and couldn't get Kubo to play something other than classical music. When playing classical music, the sound was okay but kinda boomy. I found out why he insisted on his own musical selections on Sunday when I was successful in getting Kubo to play a Lisa Ono song from a CD. The bass that came out was so muddy and wooly and boomy as though it coming out of a barrel. Kubo ended up stopping the cd player midway through the song and handing me my disc back and saying that there was something wrong with the recording! Luckily for me I used that same song in many other rooms and it sounded absolutely awesome, particularly in the TAD speaker room using Model 2 speakers, which I thought were the best of the show.
Henry, the Haniwa speakers have a badly implemented direct radiator in severely “loaded” enclosure under bottom – they suppose to be condensed, discolored and reduced. However, the fact that Mr. Kubo played the only music he insisted is rather a positive indication – he knew what would be not dangers to play within his installation. There is nothing wrong with it.

Interesting that you mentioned the last TAD speakers. Since their initial release a few years ago then always demonstrates very good sound, I do like them and they do a lot of things very accurate. However, unfortunately they compress sound like hell, in fact they compress more violently that any other speakers I ever heard.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-16-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gregm
Greece
Posts 91
Joined on 02-16-2005

Post #: 10
Post ID: 4417
Reply to: 4343
"If the waveform is wrong, the sound is wrong..."

Mind boggling iteration! I.e. & eliminating common denominators, "If the sound is wrong... it is wrong."
Agreed. IMO they are right -- ain't no two ways about it.

The Cybernetic Audio System, on the other hand, uses a closed-loop feedback system to compensate for phase shift to optimize the sound

Hmmm, in the old days this would read like a "servo". However,
A microphone captures the speaker output in your listening area, feeding it into our FPIC-100 Digital Signal Processor.  (...)The result is the vivid reproduction of every note for a natural, room-filling sound.

I.e., a DSP in your system leads to sonic vividness. This reminds me of an old ad, "put a tiger in your tank" (for petrol).

Back to the $60k job.
The horns are tractrix. Strangely, the low freq horn doesn't look hugely larger than the mid horn, as one may expect given the probable disparity in frequencies covered... There is a width of 1.45m quoted in the blurb (i.e. the lower horn's diametre?) 
So, if that's a 1,45m tractrix, what's the trick for doing bass frequencies?

As presented, the tenor sings through the two horns, the soprano through the mid and much of this bumps into the tweet on its way out. (OK, I'm being picky.)

Promising (super)tweet, btw -- as far as I can see it. Interestingly, it seems to be sitting a few w/lengths away from its bigger brother (but if so, no problem -- we can dsp the disparity).

The jewel must be that 3" compression driver covering ~300-12kHz before handing over to the tweet. To echo Romy, what's that compression driver???


05-17-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,037
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 11
Post ID: 4426
Reply to: 4416
Violent "compression"?
Romy, no doubt the following derives wholly from my ignorance on the subject, but I have not been able to get away from a sense of "variable compression" with any compression horns I have tried.  By "variable compression" I mean that the compression effect is like a trombone that re-shapes notes according to frequency and volume and also sounds to me like a "trombone" with respect to dynamics, in a similar but not entirely parallel manner.

A while back I heard and found very interesting a ridiculously priced pair of large TAD "Pro Monitors".  They were quite aggressive, but they sounded to me less trombone-like than other horns I remembered at the time.   But, now that you mention it, there was a fairly consistent sort of "pressure" about the sound that made it somewhat menacing, even with lighter music.  Still, better tonal accuracy than I had heard from horns before, and pretty good continuity, too.

I have been keeping a weather eye out for horn talk I can relate to, and your mention of the TAD as "violently" compressing has me wondering how one avoids both the violent and the trombone-type compression.

Obviously, I have not heard every compression horn...

Best regards,
Paul S
05-18-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,249
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 4427
Reply to: 4426
It is not “compression” it is system builder's stupidity.

 Paul S wrote:
Romy, no doubt the following derives wholly from my ignorance on the subject, but I have not been able to get away from a sense of "variable compression" with any compression horns I have tried.  By "variable compression" I mean that the compression effect is like a trombone that re-shapes notes according to frequency and volume and also sounds to me like a "trombone" with respect to dynamics, in a similar but not entirely parallel manner.

A while back I heard and found very interesting a ridiculously priced pair of large TAD "Pro Monitors".  They were quite aggressive, but they sounded to me less trombone-like than other horns I remembered at the time.   But, now that you mention it, there was a fairly consistent sort of "pressure" about the sound that made it somewhat menacing, even with lighter music.  Still, better tonal accuracy than I had heard from horns before, and pretty good continuity, too.

I have been keeping a weather eye out for horn talk I can relate to, and your mention of the TAD as "violently" compressing has me wondering how one avoids both the violent and the trombone-type compression.

Obviously, I have not heard every compression horn...

There is not such a thing as “compression horn”, anyhow….

Paul, what you refer to when you talk about the “trombone dynamics” has nothing to do with horns but rather with the greed and partially stupidity of the horn builders. A horn has lower pass-through frequency that determined but the size of mouth, let call it Fpass. A horn has a driver with it’s electrical high pass filter, let call it Fcut. The proximity between the Fpass and Fcut is very important – I call it the “Horn No Man Lend”. It would depending from the type of driver, crossover type, the given octave, type of horn and many other factor and might vary in some case to be more then a hole octave. What the stupid people do is disregard that “Horn No Man Lend” making the crossover point to close to the horn’s Fpass. It is perfectly understandable why they do it – to get more frequency out of minimum size but it unfortunately severely screw up sound, making the horn to choke with exercise LF. So, the very next time when you see a proper horn (not the Altec/JBL piece of crap) that from you point of view demonstrate the “trombone dynamics” try to increase the crossover point at this horn for a half of a third of octave. In 95% of all cases the “trombone dynamics” will be gone. There are some other reasons why the ““trombone dynamics” might take please but still there are way to deal with it.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (12 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Looking at the pictures of playback installations...  Come on, teasers!...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  20086  07-17-2007
  »  New  An objective tool to trace gap better horn rate and cro..  An objective tool to trace gap better horn rate and cro...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  9540  10-05-2007
  »  New  Engaging the David Haigner’s ideas..  The degree of disagreement correction...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     7  46394  08-30-2009
  »  New  A new kid in the block: Sadurni Acoustics..  Axpona 2015...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     21  52095  08-22-2011
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