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  »  New  Evaluation of tractrix curves based on visual surface r..  Re: The Delay of Time Delay...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     17  101648  06-20-2006
  »  New  Open cell foam in horns and MF drivers..  Radian replacement for 2482...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     40  225505  01-25-2008
02-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 1
Post ID: 3710
Reply to: 3710
Does horn surface porosity influence sound ?

Romy

i read some time ago, you said wood horn with a certain porosity on surface is best sounding. I doubt abought that, as i thought the differences of finish  ore even material would affect sound in a way no perceivable.

today i saw a thread that confirms my feeling :

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12390&page=2

 " By the way, the listening tests performed by Keith Holland confirmed that in blind listening tests of various commercial horns, the material, wood, metal, fibreglass, etc was not correlateable with perceived quality. Knotty or not! "

rds angelo

02-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 487
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 2
Post ID: 3711
Reply to: 3710
Materials and sound
Regards,

This statement is so incendiary I just had to comment.

Given what a horn is designed acoustically to do, it only makes sense that it absolutely must be affected by the material used, since all materials have different reflective, absorptive, and resonant properties.

Any such test should be done with identical horns made of different materials.

With all due respect to Keith Holland, I wouldn't base my beliefs on what other people say about how speakers sound; I would listen for myself. 

I mean, just listen to Jim Thiel's speakers, as an example.

Cheers!
Adrian
02-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,337
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 3712
Reply to: 3710
OK, so what? Internet is cheap….

 angeloitacare wrote:

i read some time ago, you said wood horn with a certain porosity on surface is best sounding. I doubt abought that, as i thought the differences of finish  ore even material would affect sound in a way no perceivable.

today i saw a thread that confirms my feeling :

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12390&page=2

 " By the way, the listening tests performed by Keith Holland confirmed that in blind listening tests of various commercial horns, the material, wood, metal, fibreglass, etc was not correlateable with perceived quality. Knotty or not! "
Angelo,

You are perfectly within your constitutional rights to doubt that finish or even material of a surface affects sound. You feel free also to find positive sensations but cursing Internet discovering that there are some people out there who feel in the same way. I have no idea what practice of your own made you to feel that material or finish does not affect sound, I presume that you have no own experience on the subject, so feel to develop your “doubt” in any direction you wish. I have no idea what “listening tests” Keith Holland performed but I assure you that he is a fool, not to mention that he used blind tests the makes him a double fool.

However, I do not even suggest that you should make your own judgment on the subject as it looks like making decisions based up own experiences or own interests is not what the direction you tend to go. Internet is cheap; many random and accidental people run their mouths in there. Stop browsing…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
be
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts 86
Joined on 02-12-2007

Post #: 4
Post ID: 3714
Reply to: 3712
Does horn surface porosity influence sound ? Yes!
It is wrong to conclude from:
" By the way, the listening tests performed by Keith Holland confirmed that in blind listening tests of various commercial horns, the material, wood, metal, fibreglass, etc was not correlateable with perceived quality. Knotty or not! "
That Keith Holland does not think that the horn material has influence on sound quality.

02-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,070
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 3717
Reply to: 3714
Give those old pot metal Altec horns a go!
Really, this is too funny!

I actually thought that everyone who's seriously concerned with the matter knows that everything about a horn affects the sound, including the material the horn is made from.  Hell, that's one of the reasons I gave up on the damn things!  It about drove me nuts!

Not that the nay-sayers give a rat's ass, but the best material we came up with was TAR.

That hardly solves all your problems, but it is difficult to even imagine anyone thinking that "all horn material sounds alike".  It must/can only be that 1) The fidelity from their horns is so poor that the difference s are rendered nil.  2) They couldn't hear a difference to save their lives.

Who cares if they can't hear it, really?  But the "pronouncement" of their "deduction" is annoying.

Shades of Julian Hirsch! ("All amplifiers that measure the same, sound the same.")

Rubbish!

(BTW, this is in response to the initial post/idea, not the preceding post.)

Best regards,
Paul S
02-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 6
Post ID: 3718
Reply to: 3717
my concern is not the material, but the surface
hi Paul

i had already Altec horns, and comparing them to wood horns, they really sound poor. What i really doubt
is if someone is able to hear the difference between  high gloss finish/ high porosity surface of horns.
I really doubt abought that. I  cannot imagine that there is a percievable difference.

rds angelo
02-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,070
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 7
Post ID: 3719
Reply to: 3718
Perhaps this question should be turned on its head
Since the greatest differences in audio are among listeners, there is no need to argue whether such things are audible.

However: While it no stretch to say from personal experience that such things are audible, it is very much a stretch to say that if you can't hear differences then they are not audible, as a matter of simple logic.

We could begin by contrasting a very hard, super-smooth surface with a soft, grainy or nappy one, and run through frequencies until differences were cited by a "majority".  In fact, many "prominant" loudspeaker manufacturers have done just that, and they incorporate their findings in proprietary surface materials.  All this is old news in "pro audio" circles.

But even this extreme example would only serve to prove the rule, above.

Although it is annoying as Hell for me to realize how many variables affect horn performance, I am happy to bid blessed peace to those not cursed with the affliction.

It seems like we've gotten  several posts recently that take me back to the AA guy who wrote enthusiastically about exotic, mega-dollar, "full-range", single 4" driver speakers from "So-and-So San".  Then, to top it off, lots of people jumped onboard, eager to suck up and learn more.

God bless us, every one.

Best regards,
Paul S
02-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 269
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 3720
Reply to: 3718
A simple and easy test
 angeloitacare wrote:
hi Paul

i had already Altec horns, and comparing them to wood horns, they really sound poor. What i really doubt
is if someone is able to hear the difference between  high gloss finish/ high porosity surface of horns.
I really doubt abought that. I  cannot imagine that there is a percievable difference.

rds angelo
Maybe you have access to lashes of stone at home or next to it. Get a well polished one and a rough one, without any "mirror-like" surface. Place one besides your speakers in the area of the 1st reflection and listen. Then change that lash for the other one and listen again. You'll see that being the same kind of stone (granite or marble is as good as any other stone for this simple test), the way it's polished and finished afects to great extent how the sound is reflected, the frequencies reflected and the amount of reflection. This rules too into a horn. I haven't tried horns and I don't know for myself how the horn's finish modulates sound, but I'm sure it must make a difference. I tend to be more confident on Romy's judgements than any internet reviewer's.
02-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 9
Post ID: 3721
Reply to: 3720
will do soon my own experience
hi Antonio

good point. As i will make soon my own horns, this is a concern for me. The high gloss surface looks nicer, but
sound comes first.

rds Angelo
02-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,337
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 3722
Reply to: 3719
Here’s where the fault with “correlateable perceived quality” goes…

 be wrote:
It is wrong to conclude from:
" By the way, the listening tests performed by Keith Holland confirmed that in blind listening tests of various commercial horns, the material, wood, metal, fibreglass, etc was not correlateable with perceived quality. Knotty or not! " - That Keith Holland does not think that the horn material has influence on sound quality.

'Be', certainly you have a appoint here; however I would like to point out also a few things. First: Keith Holland used a blind listening test that is one of the inductions of a low listening intelligence. Second, Keith Holland (as said) used “various commercial horns” the means he used already finished horns. It is absolutely unintelligent to take two or more different commercial horns and juts listening them to make any conclusions about surface or materials…

 Paul S wrote:
It seems like we've gotten  several posts recently that take me back to the AA guy who wrote enthusiastically about ….

Yes, there are quite a lot of absolutely moronic posts/threads ay my site lately. It does not please me. I hope the posters will use own self-control and do not upload “empty post” with undeveloped context. My general recommendation is that if one feels that his post does not deserved to be mapped to the “Knowledge Tree ™ then do not even make this post…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gregm
Greece
Posts 91
Joined on 02-16-2005

Post #: 11
Post ID: 3745
Reply to: 3722
Yesterday's experience with a sort of horn and amplifiers
Coincidentally, yesterday (14th Feb in this part of the world) -- a timely coincidence as I only read the posts today.

A friend constructed a temporary 150Hz tractrix out of hard paper -- a 12hedron. This is not about the sound etc, the horn served for an application experiment -- inconsequential here (for info, it doesn't sound good, esp upper mids, as you probably expected).
The wife does not like the white paper, so we set to colour the horn, blue, inside & out. The sound effect changed. It's either the "magical blue" colour used, or simply that there is a different consistency, or whatever -- who cares at this junction. Frankly, I'm not suggesting anything more than that and nothing scientific -- this wasn't an experiment it was a painting session.


Shades of Julian Hirsch! ("All amplifiers that measure the same, sound the same.")

Rubbish!
Actually, this can be quite true. Depends how you take it. In fact, the statement can be seen as a tautology (or as an attention-seeking pronunciamento).

Most different (I mean model/product) amplifiers don't measure exactly the same anyway, and mostly the same amplifiers perform differently under different loads...*

Let's look at it this way: in theory, one can have amplifiers that measure exactly the same -- i.e. they're electrically and mechanically and otherwise (is there otherwise?) identical. So, "all identical amplifiers sound the same," and I would add "when used in identical applications".*

Or, put it this way to Mr Hirsch and others: "how same do "different" (models/product) amplifiers actually measure?" if you measure inside out?

Yesterday I was advised that apparently, "identical" amplifiers are not an easy thing to construct (the R&D of a large infrastructure supplier to Telcos and the defense sector is using some such devices at audio frequencies -- I don't know why and, frankly, I don't care).

Further: Taken outside MoronicTM conceptualisations, it follows from the quoted statement that, "amplifiers that do not measure the same may, or may not, sound different". Fascinating, groundbreaking observation!*

{BTW, this reminds me: aren't some people playing with "double triodes" in order to approach "identity" between two amplification channels?}

* "Disclaimer": admittedly and quite openly that I wish I could do away with the damn amplifiers and all the bs surrounding them. Likewise with the "de-amplifiers" (phono equalisers) which range from the miserable to the "not bad, really, hmmm"...

At least, with a speaker there is some ground for creative speculation and problems enough; but, no, we have to worry about that stupid amplification as well, and become rocket scientists regarding the applicability of each & every such stupid device in order to listen to some audio.
02-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 3749
Reply to: 3745
other possible materials that might be used.
http://hondaswap.com/computers-games...-itself-82599/
Page 1 of 1 (12 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Evaluation of tractrix curves based on visual surface r..  Re: The Delay of Time Delay...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     17  101648  06-20-2006
  »  New  Open cell foam in horns and MF drivers..  Radian replacement for 2482...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     40  225505  01-25-2008
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