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06-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


United Kingdom
Posts 65
Joined on 12-06-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2534
Reply to: 2534
Rightsizing from extreme systems....
Folks,

It is really amusing. Here I am busy myself for a while and am not looking and suddenly Roman talks about Mini Monitors and secondar phonostages.

It is even funnier if you realise taht I am on a similar kick right now, simply because I am working on some mainstream commercial gear (design, tuning) and I felt I needed to go back onto a basic, level playing field (and I did not fancy testing the audible clipping behaviour of a 200W per channel RMS into a reactive load using my Supravox Fieldcoil open Baffle Speakers (rated at 20W RMS & with 96db/2.83V/1m sensitivity).

Unlike Roman I did sit down and build it all myself....

So, right now, apart from the Amplifier and CD Player I'm actually working on, I have quickly knockewd up a small (12 Liter net) minimonitor using the DiyHifisupply "NeoFone" Full range driver and a medium (25 Liter net) 2-Way which you can imagine as a cross of the Sonus Faber Extra passive radiator, the Dynaudio BM15 Studio Monitor and the SLS S8R Ribbon Studio Monitor.

I use a chinese made 9.5" woofer that could be a Dynaudio 24W100 Esotec Woofer (if DA had ever made one) and a 5" ribbon with an 8" X 12" passive radiator. Crossover at 2KHz, appx 4th order Linkwitz Riley acoustically, as the ribbon is hornloaded the drivers are pretty well timealigned as well.

I also build on the quick a slighty ammended and improved version of my Analog Addicts Phonostage and I must say it is still as good as I remember it. It is very small (old case from Hayes Modem and a "brick on a cable" supply transformer from an HP Inkjet printer (sized about 10 times too large), always on and quiet.

The whole system actually sounds rather decent, much better than it has any right to do.

Anyway, I'll be watching Romans new adventures with interrest....

Ciao T

PS, Roman, my commercial Products include "tubes looking at you" and "you looking at tubes" windows, I hope that's okay, I would not like to be sued by you AND Micr$oft [you cannot put these windows here - we have them trademarked]

PPS, Brian C, if you read this, get in touch please.

PPPS, Now playing apropriatly Alan Parsons Project "Psychobabble" at Mach 2 on Spinal Tap....


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
06-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2540
Reply to: 2534
It is not about rightsizing from extreme systems but ....
....obtaining the same extreme results by the different means, although I do not know yet if it is possible….

T, I do not think that it is possible to get from 9.5" woofer and passive radiator a good sound in context of small monitor. A passive radiator absolutely is the same bass-reflex design with the same problems, probably with minimized port noise. Also, that 9.5" woofer to do well 3000Kx and to do well 40Hz should be very different driver with very different characteristics. Those drivers would require even different enclosure damping methods…. That is way I initially decided do not even ask a monitor to do bass and use it ONLY as MF source. The bass would be provided by a dedicated sealed monitor with the optimized low Fs driver, place in the very same crossover mode as the main MF monitor. So my idea of monitors is basically 4 monitors and I do not think that one monitor is a fruitful direction to got regardless of methods that might  be used.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


United Kingdom
Posts 65
Joined on 12-06-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 2541
Reply to: 2540
Re: It is not about rightsizing from extreme systems but ....
Hi,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
....obtaining the same extreme results by the different means, although I do not know yet if it is possible….


My point exactly.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Also, that 9.5" woofer to do well 3000Kx and to do well 40Hz should be very different driver with very different characteristics.

 
Depends, the one I actually picked is rather unusual. By using a 4" Voice coil you have in effect a 4" diameter dome radiator in the middel and another 2" wide ring radiator around it. This means for the same cone material thickness you get the same stiffness as a conventional 5" driver using similar materials.

So, it will do pretty well at both 40Hz and 3KHz.

As for PR, it is a system of resonant reinforcement of low frequencies, just like bass reflex, transmission line or horn loading.... ;-)

My smaller speaker gets used with a sub and thus gets into your line.

But as you know, I prefer fewer ways over more.

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
06-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 2543
Reply to: 2541
Re: Making an inclosure....my experience
T, also if you knockewd up a small monitor then let me give you a lead that you might or not might find worth attention. I did a few monitors in my past and I have learned that whatever boards or woofs I used it always had sound and partially if you whent for LF in your monitor. I did not hear an LF enclosures that did not screw up a lower mid range. I invented a very effective way to deal with it. For instance my monitor was one 1-cub foot with middle braces. I placed it down and via a hole for LF driver I pored a few millimeters of polyurethane inside of the bottom's side. (To have sealed enclose really helps). Then, while the polyurethane is still liquid I dumped a layer of led shots. (Available in gun shop). You can use a ruler to EQ the led shots assuring that it will be juts one fine layer. Then you might cover it more with polyurethane. If you have some experience then you might start with dry led shots and then dump the polyurethane. You have to do it for all sides of your enclosure and as the result you will have a very interesting leded wood box with very interesting sonic qualities. Changing the grade of the led shots, amount of the layers and the property of the polyurethane (you might use silicone, paint or whatever you wish) you might do whatever you wish sonically with the sonic properties of the enclosures. I did it also for the open baffles panels….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


United Kingdom
Posts 65
Joined on 12-06-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 2544
Reply to: 2543
Re: Making an inclosure....my experience
Roman,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
T, also if you knockewd up a small monitor then let me give you a lead that you might or not might find worth attention.


I'm taking the opposite appraoch to speaker enclosures. I accept that enclosure resonances exist and to damp them only broadens the resonance, you need to go really heroic length before you get an actual improvement.

I take the opposite approach instead and attempt to manage resonances by material choice and reducing the various areas.

So, no lead for me. (I tried it before).

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
06-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 2545
Reply to: 2544
Ported box = no game.

Hm, it is complicated. In context of ported enclosure (or passive radiator) it is imposable to talk seriously about the box resonance as a speaker/driver has no own sound but rather a summation of zillion resonances, aftersounds and the rest dirt that come from a port. The bass reflex enclosures allow getting good SPL at LF but it hardly has any relation with good bass. At least I never head any worth attention ported implementations. Furthermore I has 3-4 years ago a friend of my dropped in my room his small ported loudspeakers, juts to hold them in here for a couple days. I put them in corridor of my room; perhaps 15 feet form my playback, or courses with even connecting them to anything. Then I noted that my bass because kind of screwy by adding some howling into Sound. I spend a few days chasing the problem and then I discover that I was able to fix the problem as soon I was just coved the ports of those ported monitors. 

So, I have no knowledge or understanding how and the ported enclosures work. I have seen some of them and regardless what theories they use for this design it was always was possible to put ear to the box and hear how the enclosure “pings” as different frequencies. I do not know hoe it manifest itself in the general sound but I believe the ported boxes do not indicate any sound of the drivers “as is” but rather already mixed sound of the sonic mad coming from a have polluted driver. All my feelings about the drivers and enclosures sound should be view only in context of sealed boxes…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-19-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jweiss
Posts 5
Joined on 01-10-2006

Post #: 7
Post ID: 2552
Reply to: 2534
Re: Rightsizing from extreme systems....
Hi Romy,

Looks like the Cat's been busy. Maybe now is the time to explain why you hate DIY so much, as this is obviously all DIY.

Best,

Jonathan
08-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 8049
Reply to: 2534
It is Hot! The summer playback
The damn Milqs and everything else do a lot of hit and I have been running during the hot days a pair of small monitors with consumer-grade 100V A/B amplifier. The only requirement that I have that the 100V A/B is driver from my default preamp and I would like to reuse all my sources as they are. I have to admit that I failed to get “A” sound from “B” system; it is not that I failed but I stopped trying. It is not that I see no needs but rather I lost any itch to succeed in this direction. Interestingly that as soon I stopped to care about the sound from “over 90F outside playback” the sound that I am getting from the “B” system made me to like itself more….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (8 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  “A” sound from “B” system?..  Re: “A” sound from “B” system?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     13  92313  05-22-2005
  »  New  A quest for a better monitor...  Dome tweeters and brightness in SL600...  Audio Discussions  Forum     97  675374  06-08-2006
  »  New  Cool running AB amplifier.. with good sound...  How about more current integrateds?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     11  72015  07-25-2006
  »  New  Macondo’s MiniMe or about Pilot Acoustic Systems..  Injection Pilot?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     213  1325765  09-03-2008
  »  New  Off-the-wall playback or the 'hamster solution'...  Spacial information...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  33045  02-26-2009
  »  New  Yamaha B-2 V-FET amplifier...  I do like my B-2...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  125925  07-20-2009
  »  New  Playing bad recordings using the "B" system...  It seems...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  13598  09-14-2011
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