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  »  New  Here is my new tonearm...  Korvet TT in German...  Analog Playback Forum     9  121273  12-11-2004
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  »  New  Buying a last cartridge...  Lucky you...  Analog Playback Forum     80  565112  09-05-2008
04-04-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2282
Reply to: 2282
My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung

Sometimes ago I received an email from a NY guy that I know:

“I borrowed a friend's Sansui TU-X1 and just like I heard them at your place it sounds fantastic! What is it about this tuner?  There is such an ease to the presentation and no distracting aggressiveness…. Talk about a revelation. I don’t focus on anything but the music. Nothing is emphasized, very even, musical presentation.  I actually feel relaxed listening to the tuner… I’m not sure if ill be sleeping tonight bc of the tuner...  I remember reading a thread on recording these broadcasts… I’m very interested.  This is getting ridiculous...”

I went over this “ridiculous mode”  sometimes ago as well and the introduction to the TU-X1-level of FM broadcasts in my audio-live along with the programming quality of Boston’s FM stations made me really to review my relationship with any other sources of music in my listening room, including the vinyl. The diversify and the volume of different high quality musical material that I am getting out of FM is so high that I made me to loose interest for LP/CD shopping. I kind of stopped to be interested for LPs because… the very next hour or the next day it will be another very much worth listening FM broadcast… I so like those FM live events that I have more fun over-paying to people who sell recordings of some great FM events then digging out some kinky LP or CD. It is really shame how much phenomenal live musical events from past never made to mainstream media….

Toward the said my recent listening habits have changed. Among all time my playback is on I have approximately 80% or all time running FM (or recorded FM) and the rest time I spin the LP/CD. When I do spin the LPs I came to the observation that my LP is high maintenance and require to “do” something to reach it’s maximum result. I do not like it and I would like to have the LP playback operating with the same simplicity and stability as FM or CD do. Still, having and loving many thousands selected LPs I decides to converts my LP playback into something that would be as simple of a one-button-tuner (still working how to synchronize the selected MF station with the antenna rotor’s position)  and at the same to time deliver the expected level of LP performance. An idea was to make my LP playback handling-free and bring it to the stage where I would allow myself to forget about the entire analogue “know-how”.

The following directions where set:

1) Use only one RIAA corrector for the entire analog playback (six sources)
2) Introduce as many tonearms as I might FUNCTIONALLY need, trying forgetting about the cartridges for good
3) Make entire analog installation a single-button driven not only physically but also functionally

So, it is mostly done now and let me to share some my observation about the process I went through.

First the tonearms. I do not know what make me so like them. I have many versions of explanations. Initially I thought that I so love tonearms because my ego. Then, I thought that it might be a male’s preoccupation with whatever is longer then 9 inch. Then, it recognized in my love to tonearms the fact that I have engendering semi-education. Then I was referring to the fact that in childhood I spent quite a time to do mechanical work (engines and so on…) Despite of all of that I do I have many purely audio justifications why multiple tonearms might be useful. Whatever the real reasons are I have to admit that I just love tonearms. I love them, I know them, I feel them, I like to deal with them as the little mechanical gismos that produce some non-mechanical results.  If I see an interesting tonearm I can help to try it. Audio-wise my desire to have multiple tonearms derives from my desire to use different cartridges. Because I DO NOT WHAT TO CHANGE ANYTHING in order to do so and at the same time  I would like to put a selected cartridge in it’s optimum operations and sonic condition I need multiple arms.  So I need (might need):

1) An arm with a premium, reference quality, full-range stereo cartridge (I use Shelter 901)
2) An arm with a premium, reference quality, having the romantic and “vintage” Sound (I use Koetsu Onyx Platinum and Ortofon SPU Classic)
3) An arm with a good quality stereo cartridge, of simplified conic profile (I use various Denons - 103, 103R, 103D, 103M)
4) An arm with a premium, reference quality Mono cartridge (I use Ortofon Mono CG 25 and Ortofon SPU Mono)
5) An arm with so-so sounding stereo cartridges to play not good, dirty records or to play while I’m working in order do not use up the better needles (MM Grado References platinum)
6) A playground arms in which I could put experimental and try cartridges and WITHOUT screwing the settings on the operational arms

Generally, considering my current familiarity with all imaginable tonearms out there (besides the linear-trucking arms), I have to say that if I started from beginning then I would load my TT with six identical SME 3012 arms. To my ears the 3012 is a perfectly sounding arm and if a person knows how to play its effective mass then it might be use with ANY cartridges.

Second: the phonocorrectors. The RIAA correctors are bitch and everyone who know analog and particularly use multiple arms knows it. Different arms – different cables- different loading, different sound from the correctors…. This is hard to manage.  Partially if you use Domains cables then you can’t switch the cables, as they need a few days to calm down to produce a correct bass. I want to spin record instead of the flipping constantly the interconnects and the grounds…OK, now I have a problem. My problem is not even with the cable management but with the fact that after many-many phonocorrectors I eventually concluded that I refuse to listen analog if the signal after cartridge does not flow into an Expressive Technologies transformer. Something that the transformer does makes me very comfy and very agreeable. After all I eventually decided to route ALL MY ANALOG SOURCES into the Expressive SU-2. A month or so ago I commissioned Guy Hummel from Placette to help me to make 0.2mV router with a desirable level of switching quality. The router is direct-coupled with the Expressive transformer’s input and has 6 inputs with desired impedance. The switching is done by gold relays sealed in hydrogen. The router is very simple and I perfectly might assemble it myself but I figured that needed Mr. Hummel’s intellectual and assembling techniques. To build the 250mV operating perms is very simple as well but so far I neither heard nor was able to build myself a line-level preamp that would be as transparent as the Guy Hummel’s active unit.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?postID=957#957

Guy still working on the MC-routing unit but I figured that if Guy will not be able to reach the level of absolute non-audibility and transparency then no one would.

The phonocorrector. The Expressive Technologies transformer is direct-coupled to dual mono, custom built and voiced 834PT corrector. In the end this phonocorrector has won (also the Expressive works the best with this corrector). There is a lot on my site about the 834PT.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?postID=2074#2074

The rest is very simple: Micro Seiki 5000 (with “help” to platter) and Micro Seiki 8000 sitting atop on an active Vibraplane, driven by one Micro’s motor with 83” reel-to-reel tape. One switch activates the compressor for air suspension and motor.  I am kind of getting familiar wit this setup and kind of learning how to get the best from each arm/needle pair (this I know) in context of the different platters. All together it  feel very comfortable and what the MC-router will be ready I feel it will be exactly what I meant to have as the ultimate (according to my demands) LP playback station.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-05-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
George
Posts 26
Joined on 03-23-2005

Post #: 2
Post ID: 2283
Reply to: 2282
Recording: My Analog Playback

Hello Romy,

Have you tried recording and playing vinyl with your computer and the Lavrys?
 
Even though the source is completely different than FM perhaps you might get acceptable results for some recordings?? Any success would be a great plus.

Listening-wise I am in a somewhat similar situation as you. I listen during the day and busy times to FM and tend to save vinyl for special occasions which is somewhat frustrating.

I just wonder how much we would lose recording vinyl to a hard disc. This is not an easy experiment and you are one of the few people I know that even has the proper gear.

I look forward to your thoughts.
George

04-05-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 2284
Reply to: 2283
Analog Playback CD Recording
 George wrote:
Have you tried recording and playing vinyl with your computer and the Lavrys?
 
Even though the source is completely different than FM perhaps you might get acceptable results for some recordings?? Any success would be a great plus.

Listening-wise I am in a somewhat similar situation as you. I listen during the day and busy times to FM and tend to save vinyl for special occasions which is somewhat frustrating.

I just wonder how much we would lose recording vinyl to a hard disc. This is not an easy experiment and you are one of the few people I know that even has the proper gear.

George,

I did kind of try it with Lavry but I did not get the result that I might say was interpretable. My phono-corrector has 55dB gain +28dB in step up transformers. Driving from .5mV cartages I overload the Lavry ADC. I was planning to make a simple RCR-RCR adapter with a voltage divider inside but I had no motivation yet as I do not REALLY need to convert my analog to PC (unless I will be selling them unless anyone else seems doing it nowadays). Sometimes I will try it and I think it will be more completed then FM and the vinyl signal has a fully extended FM range.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-05-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 2285
Reply to: 2282
Re: twin platters
Hi Romy,

Did you notice any difference in the performance of records played on the SX8000 platter once the 5000 platter was running with it? Did the additional flywheel effect manifest itself in any way?

best rgds,

Guy
04-05-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 2286
Reply to: 2285
No flywheel effects so far...

 guy sergeant wrote:
Did you notice any difference in the performance of records played on the SX8000 platter once the 5000 platter was running with it? Did the additional flywheel effect manifest itself in any way?
Guy, you are referring to the older thread:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=2015

The answer would be that I do not know how additional flywheel affects the given TT sound.

The SX-8000 and RX-5000 have differently sounding platters, very differently, and it took for me some time to make the RX-5000 to sound better. Still I feel that SX-8000’s platter is way more interesting and therefore all my “better” arm/needles are clustered around the SX-8000.

The flywheel effect? As I said I do not know, as I do not feel that there is any difference. I personally did not believe before into the flywheel effect in context of those type turntables and in context of the given driving methods and I do not feel that I have any evidence to change my view.

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-06-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 258
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 2287
Reply to: 2286
Re: flywheel effect
Hi,

I was really just wondering whether effectively almost doubling the rotating mass made any audible difference to the presentation. From your experience, it would seem not which suggests that the kinetic energy stored by one SX8000 platter is enough.

It would seem that all of the excessive flywheel experiments carried out by the guy in Greece and various Japanese users were perhaps unnecessary.

rgds,

Guy
04-06-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 2288
Reply to: 2287
Out of sight out of mind.

In order to increase the rotating mass the platters have to be couple much harder then my lightly-applied reel-to-real tape. When you stress platters horizontally harder it creates own problems that do have sonic outcomes. In addition, the only way to do flywheel is to use two belts (with a mechanism of vertical holding of the bridge belt); otherwise you apply an extra horizontal force to the motor, with many other negative consequences to the motor and the motor’s power supply.

I did not say that this flywheel is not effective. I say that I do not know as I can’t confirm it. I personally doubt the flywheel effective because considering the mass of my platters and the coupling force of my belt the platters really does not see each other. When people do couples the platters hard and then claim that it “made huge difference” I always ask them questions and always was able (so far) to find a lack of consistently and credulity in their judgments about the flywheel. I also I do not know how to isolate the sonic changes that inflicted to a platter by applying a horizontal force from the conic changes that reportedly might be due to the flywheel effect. If you take a small 100g rubber wheel with bearing, press it to a platter and let it to spin along with the platter then you tilt the platter’s “beating” and will change the order of the mechanical filter. This would also have the “sonic difference” primary at the very-very lower frequencies.  How to abstract from this change while we evaluate the flywheel effect I do not know. To subscribe to the people who clime: “my bass dramatically improved with flywheel” and who are playing the 50Hz ported mini-monitors is really insults my inelegance.

Once again, I do not know if the flywheel is affective as I never was able to conduct within my conditions the methodologically “clean” experiment. In addition, there are many others, the really auditable and the really important things that should be taken care in case of my “tandem”, and the flywheel considerations are really out of my radars.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hagtech


Hawaii
Posts 117
Joined on 02-13-2006

Post #: 8
Post ID: 2289
Reply to: 2288
Re: Impressive
That's a fine looking analog rig you got there.  Glad to see you switched to tape instead of other belts.  My friends at Galibier and Redpoint are really into it.  They say the taller the tape, the better.  I believe they are using VCR tape, but their experiments have shown 1" tape to perform best.  Just far more prone to destruction (sort of non-intuitive).

I once suggested to see if they could get a pattern printed on it, like zebra stripes.  You could then use it as an rpm strobe. 

jh
04-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 2291
Reply to: 2289
Yes, zebra is better then hors :-)

 hagtech wrote:
That's a fine looking analog rig you got there.  Glad to see you switched to tape instead of other belts.  My friends at Galibier and Redpoint are really into it.  They say the taller the tape, the better.  I believe they are using VCR tape, but their experiments have shown 1" tape to perform best.  Just far more prone to destruction (sort of non-intuitive).

I once suggested to see if they could get a pattern printed on it, like zebra stripes.  You could then use it as an rpm strobe. 
Jim,

I do not know about the tape vs. belt debate. I personally do like belt better but purely intellectually, as I was not able to see any difference in sound or stability between tape and belt (in context of 38”). With both: tape and belt the stability of the spinning is way beyond what might be critically measurable.

What I do not like about tape that it “sings”. When I have a long run of tape and if I put my ear I the muddle of the open space, very-very close to it, then I can hear how the tape produces a HF sound. It is very minor and it is completely not auditable or effective to the actual sound that I am getting out of loudspeakers; however a belt does not have this singing effect. The only reason why I do not use a belt is because I do not have a good quality 83” rubber belt.

I did try the cassette tape and did not like it. Probably your friend if correct and the wider tape will be better. I do not know, also my motor’s pulley will not drive the VCR tape. I stick for a time being with the regular tape; however I am theoretically would go now for the older version of tape (Russians called it Type 2 of Type 6 and I’m sure that West had the same). Very long time ago people used the tape that wasn’t based upon a “cellophane” core and wasn’t elastic. It did not stretch but cracked and ruptured. I think it would be better because it was slightly heavier that might do better in case of the “singing” that I mentioned above. Anyhow, this all become too anal retentive and I feel that it servers very little purpose besides the perusing an intangible perfection juts for sake of the gratuitous perfection. I’m sure if the platters would be lighter then it would be more vital but in my case I do not feel that I should really worry about.

The zebra stripes on the platter’s sides? Well, it only if one listens the Led Zeppelin and alike! I personally hate to see equipment when it plays Music and I would rather to spray-paint everything in black to have it completely invisible… Well, I’m slowly going there BTW  :-)

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 7554
Reply to: 2282
My analog setup update.

With the recent changes on my configuration changes and employing the “End of the Live Phonostage”, in duty I re-thinked my analog playback. I got rid to arms and one deck, changed the mapping between the arms and phonostages and ended up with quite comfortable seething that does what I need and have no complication of playback language.

The deck is the very same unavoidable Micro 8000 with hard mat on platter, sitting atop Vibroplne. There are 4 arms used, different in functionality, needs and purpose.

1)    References stereo arm: SME 3012 with 23 extra grams in shell and Shelter 901 loaded to 50R with Dominus. This is my very beloved configuration and I play with it only what I like.

2)    Mono arm: Micro 282AU with Otophone SPU Mono Conical. I have a few plug-and–play SC insert tubes for this arm with different cartages but at this point I do not see myself using the inserts anymore. One of the insets hosts the Elliptical SPU Mono that I sometime might employ. The arm is loaded to the same “End of the Live” RIAA via Micro “fat” cable.

3)    Romantic stereo arm: SME 3009 with Otophone SPU Classic driving the same phono-corrector via POD Proteus “B” cable. I love this arm it has that “soft touch” that I do appreciate in some cases and on some records.

4)    Dirty Dally arm: SME M2-12 with Grado Platinum Ref loaded to 47K via VdH 501 Hybrid to custom made EAR 834PTF. This is my first play arm. I play records that I care less how they sound, that I did not vacuumed or juts to learn what was on the record. Ironically, this arm delivers surprisingly nice and musical result - much better then might be expected. I have  another interchangeable shells for this arm with other needles – in the past I used Denon 103M for the Dirty play – it read records better then Grado but I never was able to make the new SME arms to work with any of my MC cartridges.

All arms run dry, no liquid dumping used anymore.  That is pretty much it. I am getting rid of my collection of other arms and needles, not to raise money but juts to trash the things that I do not need as I have no plane to make any modifications of changes. I might consider another type reference cartridges (I love Shelters though) when my current dies – needles get better and better - but I am a good few years away from that moment…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (10 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ultimate Turntable..  Versa dynamics...  Analog Playback Forum     184  781460  05-31-2004
  »  New  Here is my new tonearm...  Korvet TT in German...  Analog Playback Forum     9  121273  12-11-2004
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  367552  02-02-2006
  »  New  The last phonocorrector: “End of Life" Phonostage..  Burn, motherf....r, burn!...  Analog Playback Forum     284  1258668  11-13-2007
  »  New  Buying a last cartridge...  Lucky you...  Analog Playback Forum     80  565112  09-05-2008
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