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  »  New  How to record FM broadcasts...  Left to center...  Off Air Audio Forum     125  625209  11-04-2005
  »  New  Sansui TU-X1 Broadcast monitor...  Replace all audio coupling......  Off Air Audio Forum     46  257166  06-20-2007
  »  New  Rohde & Schwarz EU-6201 Tuner..  The Schwarz runs from crystal oscillator!...  Off Air Audio Forum     34  208077  05-07-2008
03-27-2006 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,337
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 2256
Reply to: 2256
Align your FM tuners!

If you search my link with keyword “tuner” then you come across the “Stereo Surgeons” a tuners service center in Connecticut. I was a month ago searching a place to align my Sansui SU-1X and interview a few shops in US. I was searching somebody who would not propose to replace the electrolytics to Black Gates, the resistors to carbons and the caps to Havlands. I was afraid that my SU-1X will be in the hands of a topical audiophile idiot who would kill it...

When I spoke with Ken Bernacky he said that he will be able to get the best specification of if this tuner but he will not do the violate what was already done in Sansui. Knowing how my Sansui TU-1X sounds I really did not want to loose it but I still want to be assured that after 25 years of operation the tuner performs as it should.

Ken took a tuner and I learned that I so loved it that and I relay felt that my child was in a hospital. In 3 weeks (including a week of burning in) he returned the tuner completely serviced, fully aligned, replaced and adjusted whatever was necessary (Ken actually provides the itemized inspection result) with FM performance:

Sensitively: 0.8uv
Distortions Wide Stereo: 0.022%
Distortions Wide Mono: 0.015%
Separation: 56dB

I do not really know how those numbers manifest itself sonically. Ken told me that it is now very well perfuming mashie. I head on Saturday the MET’s broadcast of Verdi’s Luisa Miller. It was very nice but my Dominus cable did not kick apparently is as the need a few days to give up all bass.  Today, the WHRB broadcasted a cycle of the wonderfull Egon Petri’s recordings, mostly directly from the Westminster LPs and the 78s Holly cow! You have to hear that Busoni’s Prelude and Fugue in D! My TT can not handle such a dramatic Sternway’s crash and it went via FM to this damn Sansui!

I do not think that the Stereo Surgeon’s did anything to tone and bass of my tuner but the overall performance of this mashie become much better. Whoever dose serious FM and lucky to live in a city with good FM station MUST align your tuners. In my FM live the $250 I paid for the Stereo Surgeons’ service was the best reimbursable investment I made in audio. If you share your love to you FM as I do then consider the tuner alignment as a vaccination of your child…

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-05-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,337
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 11288
Reply to: 2256
The sad state of audio repair - the right people are not there anymore.
fiogf49gjkf0d

After the tragically story that took place last week witch a local fool who fancy him a tuner master

(Here, and a couple of posts after this: http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=11242  )

I brought the Schwarz home and learned that this idiot did damage the tuner. Previously it was absolutely impossible to overload the Schwarz’s front end but now it become sensitive to overload. Apparently the cretin un-calibrated the auto-gain control circuit, which is BTW quite complex in Schwarz. I remember a few months back a recording industry guy sent me pissed email insisting that shell not suggest cut the hands of the Morons who vandalize recordings by stupid sound editing. Well, think again…

The even brings a larger point – the electronics technicians who are able to so more or less competent job is left less and less each year. The serious people from electronics industry told me that electronics schools do not teach properly anymore, furthermore they insist that electronic knowledge is being exterminated in this country. This all lead to the situation that no one can service gear anymore.

Juts for fan I spoke with a few people who are involved in Boston repair service and it was shocked how gloomy the picture is. According to 2 individuals who are heavy players in Boston reaper scene there is a certain level of repair complexity above which it is dangers to give equipment to the repair men. They insist that all their colleges are very limiters in experience and capacity not to mention the desire to work with anything more than the cookie-cutter simplistic repair. The people who are willing and able to take more time, more money and perform any more or less advanced tasked looks like are evaporating….

The horror of it that some of those who are left are so fucking off that they are not even understand the complexity of tasks and level of demands for this services. It is like they work in a restaurant and you ask them for Penfolds Grange 1951. They bring you Diet Pepsi and in your surprise they reply: “What the heck is a difference? They both are liquids!”

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
misnacat
Ontario Canada
Posts 12
Joined on 09-10-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 11712
Reply to: 11288
Competent work for tuner alignment and upgrades, but who?
fiogf49gjkf0d
FM is a large part of my entertainment be it the car, boat or home, My Accuphase T100 was checked over and aligned back sometime in the late 1990s by a local fellow that is now deceased.
I would like to have my tuner looked over again and discuss possible upgrades. I did ask this question a while a go at tuner info centre and received a mixed bag of glowing recommendation all across North America.
One guy, his price started at $300.00 to $1,300 for all out modifications for the T-100, not likely.

This is the dilemma , WHO is competent to do a good job? Any recommendations ?

From what I read here on this site I like , great job Romy.

09-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,337
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 11715
Reply to: 11712
FM alignment: I would like myself to have answers.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 misnacat wrote:
FM is a large part of my entertainment be it the car, boat or home, My Accuphase T100 was checked over and aligned back sometime in the late 1990s by a local fellow that is now deceased.
I would like to have my tuner looked over again and discuss possible upgrades. I did ask this question a while a go at tuner info centre and received a mixed bag of glowing recommendation all across North America.
One guy, his price started at $300.00 to $1,300 for all out modifications for the T-100, not likely.

This is the dilemma, WHO is competent to do a good job? Any recommendations?

Misnacat,

Good question. I would like myself to have an answer.

The subject of tuners is very complicated, much more complicated than most of other audio components. When we talk about tuners we imply

1)    Reception
2)    Reception in respect to topology
3)    Sound quality
4)    Sound quality in respect to Reception

Those categories might be very isolated and it is very difficult to find a technician to assist you. I do not know in which county you live but here in US it is very difficult to find a good technician, period. To fix older audio equipment is tricky business. The old audio equipment itself cost very little and when people decided to fix it then they understandably willing to pay not much. So, for the people who make leaving in repairing business the only way to deal with it is to increase volume of the repairs. They charge 30-40$/h, have no more knowledge then most of doctor and most of them have year and years of experience. How they can compete with contemporary let say high-tech engineers who bill 150$/h juts after one-two years of practice? So, it is understandable that audio repair-men are looking for quick and dirty jobs to speed up the turn over. A proper alignment of tuners is very much from quick and dirty jobs and it is not surprise that the people who do it ether very badly or turn into jerks with whom is imposable to deal with.

When I said “do it ether very badly” I meant that in tuner alignment it is very simple to do, ok let me to rephrase – it is very difficult and very not gratifying to do good job.  Alignment of tuner is not just a technical job but more like a work of art where there is no “best way” to do the things but rather the infinite amount of different “better ways”. To do it the person need to be truly stimulated, the question is “the stimulated with what?” The money we would pay for the alignment are not truly the stimulation…

Most of the tuner alignment people tweak tuners front-end getting get best sensitivity. The best of them align the first-second stages of intermediate stages and then limiter. If the IF and limiter are made with many stages then they do not go over each section assuring that they have the identical windows. To get the best linearity the IF stages is very tricky and it BTW has direct affect to sound not only for selectivity. In many cased people do it many time, getting the best configuration. Then there are many other subjects of detector distortions, the MPX distortion and crosstalk and so on. It is not the it is difficult to do but it rather a degree where to stop and here are the “fast” and non-stimulated “specialists” and in many case are not helpful.  I do not even mention that mention that among the alignment technicians there are just open idiots, like the one that I faced:

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=11246

So, I would feel that the “best” alignment is the one that you would do to yourself if you have the skills as you can really take your time and do it right. Alternately if you can find an alignment technician who has knowledge and at the same time who would be personally interested or stimulated in your FM result then it might be wonderful. I do not have such a person and I envy to people who do. If you have such a person then you might advance your FM to get rid some specific design problem of your specific tuner or to accommodate your tuner specifics for the specifics of your stations and your locations… This is what I call the “upgrades: not the stupid part swapping that most of the people do.

About the tuner sound. I would not trust to ANY of the technicians and if they begin to talk about sound then I walk. The alignment technicians shall deal with a set of dry technical qualification and measurements and it about it. I would prefer those who do not even listen tuners and have no idea that tuners might sound different…

Another sad part about the alignment technicians – they all very negatively talk about each other and it is not about the bitching about competitors but each of them willing to bring facts against competitors. Very distressing to hear it. So, developing good personal relations with your alignment technicians and have good feeling about his I think is a very right thing to do. I would pay more and I would give more advanced objectives for modifications to a person with whom I feel more comfortable. I do not give recommendation, like I never do in purchasing decision. Partially because I do not have a complete comfort with any of alignment technicians I know. Ken from Connecticut did a phenomenal job with both of my Sansuis but I never was able to make him in past to address one design defect of SU-1X. Lately Ken has developed some interpersonal difficulties that made him hardly ever useful. 

I spoke with a few other people but I did not see among them valid candidates.  I have bought my own sweep-generator and I thought to have my own hands dirty with alignment of my tuners.  I do not think it will happen.  The idiot Vince from the Watertown’s Audio Pros did fuck up my Rohde & Schwarz. Formally it was imposable to overload my Schwarz but after the idiot touched it the auto-gain is got des-calibrated.  I would LOVE to find somebody who would work on Schwarz…

Sorry, I was not useful for you but I am in the same boar as you are, trying to find WHO is competent to do a good job or at least who whom I would be comfortable….  

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
misnacat
Ontario Canada
Posts 12
Joined on 09-10-2009

Post #: 5
Post ID: 11718
Reply to: 11715
A roll of the dice
fiogf49gjkf0d

Cat,
Thank you for your time trying to help.

I'm not engaged to my Accuphase though I do care about it.
I read your comment on the ASP antenna and went to their site. In their tuner section for alignment and repairs they have amoung other tuners a T100 featured I assume they have worked on. I sent off an e-mail full of questions to them today.

Also today I have found someone that MAY help both of us. Tony Bartunek of Radiodoctor.org here in Canada.......... I can picture you right now rolling your eyes but hold on, check out his back ground on his site and talk to him, you never know.
I'm waiting for a reply.

Another alternitive regarding your Rohde Schwarz is to contact Rohde & Schwarz, they have been around a long time, hopefully they can put you in contact with someone that can help you.
 
Long live the analogue tuner 

Mark

09-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,337
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 11720
Reply to: 11718
The “serious tuner” alignments...
fiogf49gjkf0d

 misnacat wrote:
I'm not engaged to my Accuphase though I do care about it.
I read your comment on the ASP antenna and went to their site. In their tuner section for alignment and repairs they have amoung other tuners a T100 featured I assume they have worked on. I sent off an e-mail full of questions to them today.

Yes, I heard that they are very knowledgeable people, at least were, but it means very little. I spoke with them a few years back and they were very firm about what they do. I was asking about alignment but they were selling me the modifications. When I informed them that I do not like/care about their modification then they become “less cooperative”. I was also very not comfortable that they did not disclosed to me what the minimal numbers of sensitivity and signal-to-noise that they were able to accomplish with their Sansui TU-1X they did in past. It was kind of much depersonalized and I spoke almost like it was a secretary who had no personal attachment with what is going on.

 misnacat wrote:
Also today I have found someone that MAY help both of us. Tony Bartunek of Radiodoctor.org here in Canada.......... I can picture you right now rolling your eyes but hold on, check out his back ground on his site and talk to him, you never know.
I'm waiting for a reply.

Might be he is good guy, I do not know. What he does is restore the old radios – very different task from getting the given tuner to perform to the best of own topology. But he is Czechoslovakia and I like Czech people... Might be I need to give him a call to find out if he dealt or be interested to deal with “serious tuner” alignments, not with  the low-demands “retro radios”.

 misnacat wrote:
Another alternitive regarding your Rohde Schwarz is to contact Rohde & Schwarz, they have been around a long time, hopefully they can put you in contact with someone that can help you.

Mark, of course I spoke with them. I was not able to fine anybody who still support the analog tuners.  I am sure if I live in Germany and if I knew the people then I would have access to right individuals but approaching to the front entrance of the company did not lean my to anything useful: they insisted that they do not support it anymore.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 11727
Reply to: 11715
Born To Suffer
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
  I would LOVE to find somebody who would work on Schwarz…
Sunday morning, cloudy Sky and I thought to myself:“Let‘s talk with My Audiophile Buddy (MAB)


Me: "Hi, how is life?"

MAB: "Great. How is your girl friend?"

Me:" *Ahem* she left me"

MAB: "Hm. Why?"

Me: "I don‘t know. She was in a bad mood. In the nicely wrapped box the UPS guy brought wasn‘t the ring she hoped for."

MAB: "What was in it?"

Me: "a Lyra Titan"

MAB: "Pal, how many times did I tell you: Buy a dog."

Me: "Yes, I know....."(.in-the-next-5-minutes-i-got-more-life-aid-than-the-rest-of inhabitants-in-the-town-i -live... )

       "Btw. Do you know a Rhode & Schwarz technician?"

MAB:" Yes. Why?"

Me: "I heard from somebody who has a R&S Tuner which has problems?"

MAB: "PROBLEMS????????? 

          With a Rhode & Schwarz Tuner?  

          What‘s that for a guy?"

Me: "He didn‘t ruin it. He gave it away and that guy ruined it."

MAB: "Is that guy who ruined it, still alive?"

Me: "Yes. The owner is a tough one. But deep in his heart he is sensitive."

MAB: "I would shot him into the knee...

          Does he own a Dog?"

Me: "No. He has 17 cats"

MAB: "Huh?"

Me: "Yes. Each of his Cats has very cognitive function. 3 of them he uses to bite his neighbors. 2 of them he uses for sex. Another 5 are his private security team – they keep Jews, Negros, Mickey Mouse’s dolls and Homosexuals away from him. 3 other cats care his guns with him when he leaves his house to make his annual trip to pharmacy. Another 4 cats he uses for his weekly reinstating the Pharsalus battle on his kitchen floor..."

MAB: "THAT‘s a serious Audiophile."

Me: "R&S ...There is something with becoming sensitive to overload"

MAB: "shit"

Me: "Can your buddy fix it?"

MAB:" Are you joking? He was THE Technician for those tuners, he serviced those in the Studios"

ME: "Was? Serviced?"

MAB: "Yes. He is retired."

Me: "aha"

MAB: "I have to ask him"

Me: "Difficult job?"

MAB: "Stitch, do you have any idea how many parts are inside that unit?"

        (I knew, sometimes it is better to keep my mouth shut and learn....)

"There are more parts in it than your Stereo System has"

Me:" Hm "(silence...)

MAB:" Together!!! His service manual for that unit is about 800 pages....."

Me: "Can he do the job?"

MAB: "Of course. When he knows whats wrong, he can do the repair.

         And the calibration!!!!!! 
         He still has access to calibration station..."

Me: "Sounds expensive"

MAB:" We are born to suffer...."





Kind Regards
Stitch
09-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,337
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 11732
Reply to: 11727
The Munich technician?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Thanks, Stitch, it give me a good laugh. The description of my Cats without the context of the idiots to whom I replied did not sound right.  I would prefer to use this description instead:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=digital&n=49549

Anyhow, returning back to my Schwarz. There is nothing wrong with it – it just needs some alignment and recalibration. The irony is that your German technician in Munich might be the very same guy from whom I bought my tuner and decoders. The guy I bought from WAS the Rhode & Schwarz technician who served Rhode & Schwarz FM on the commercial stations...

I did ask him of the alignment and recalibration services are available but I do not think I even got a definitive answer. It might be another person as well. Anyhow, is it possible to inquire via you if your Munich technician will be interested to review and to re-align one Rohde & Schwarz EU-6201? Sure, I will take care about all shipments and logistics….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (8 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  How to record FM broadcasts...  Left to center...  Off Air Audio Forum     125  625209  11-04-2005
  »  New  Sansui TU-X1 Broadcast monitor...  Replace all audio coupling......  Off Air Audio Forum     46  257166  06-20-2007
  »  New  Rohde & Schwarz EU-6201 Tuner..  The Schwarz runs from crystal oscillator!...  Off Air Audio Forum     34  208077  05-07-2008
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