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08-22-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 19962
Reply to: 19962
How to train respect audio listening?
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is very interesting subject. As many times I went to live concerts with somebody I never remember that a person was listening problem.  There were people who underdressed or over-dress, the people who over-used perfume, the damp people who read smart phone all concert. Still, if the performance was good then my listening was never distraction. With audio this is totally different story.

Any minute behavioral things in a person who is listening audio with me do distract me tremendously. If a person is damn in the given music then it also makes me very uncomfortable to listen with him/her. I do not even mention behavior. Anything that people do while they listening bother me and I very much prefer to listen alone as they distract me.

Amy, whom I love dearly and with whom I love to share listening couch, is not very comfortable listening companion, at the same time she is to me the best listening companion for live music. She has zero listening discipline during audio listening and I hate to admit to myself that I sometimes I love to be left alone when I am listening. Today we were listening Die Walkure with Jessye Norman and Christa Ludwig. I believe it was a production from 1990 and it futures the best Die Walkure in modern orchestral playing by estimable MET under Levine. I maxed out the volume and it was a spectacular ride. The Kitty was rolling over the couch like a monkey on a tree, periodically deriving sound, covering the direct radiation or just created some inappropriate near-field reflections. That very much ruined the whole opera experience. She has absolutely no feeling that listening audio is in a way a sacred ceremony. I would never allow myself to talk while she is playing or to grab her by her hand but she feels that it is appropriate to pat my ears while I am listening my music. It is not that I do not like what she does but I also do not like to allocated for my listening the time when she is not home.

For now, I am missing my single listening chair….
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,052
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 19963
Reply to: 19962
Hmmm... I generally have my listening room to myself...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Like I've said too many times, my wife has not much interest in music without rhythm (ie., dance music), and very little interest in "music" of any kind via audio, so she generally stays away from my audio sessions, which she refers to as, "Loud, blaring music".  Ironically, there have been occasions when the electricity and the sound were as good as they get, and when this happens she will USUALLY come in and make a (positive) comment about the MUSIC, even if it's opera!  However, since these occasions are few and far between these days, I have need for only one chair (MY chair) in my listening room, and I happily jump up and clear it out of the way if the girls (wife, daughter, granddaughters) want to dance.

There have been occasions over the last 45 years when my wife wanted to talk over the music, and I have responded to this in a number of ways, not all of them productive. But I think she has very rarely ruined my experience while meaning to share it.

Years ago, I think I would just say to her what I was thinking, maybe sharpen the edge of it a little.  These days I believe I would just take and enjoy the company for what it was worth and write down or write off the listening session, and try again another day.

So, hmmm...

How about 3 nice "theater" chairs, placed side by side?  I have been in some "Hollywood Mogul" home theaters that had very nice chairs that were pre-made to nest closely that way. I have no idea what they cost, though it would make no difference to these people;  but I also suppose there must be some sort of "price range" for these chairs.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 129
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 19964
Reply to: 19962
Human performance
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think most people, as audience find fascination in unusually capable performance of the performers, as in a live music event. So if there is no performer there is nothing to give homage to, really. Other than good reproductive properties of a sound system, which can get kind of old quickly to the non-involved observer, there is so much time they are held interested and then drift off to casual interaction. During that live performance the performer keeps the audience involved, no? But at home in your listening seat, what keeps you involved is not the performer but the performance.

08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 19966
Reply to: 19964
Respect
fiogf49gjkf0d
... the discriminated Audiophile never gets the respect he deserves ....
Audiophile Respect.jpg


Kind Regards
Stitch
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 19969
Reply to: 19964
Multiple factors....
fiogf49gjkf0d
 noviygera wrote:
I think most people, as audience find fascination in unusually capable performance of the performers, as in a live music event. So if there is no performer there is nothing to give homage to, really. Other than good reproductive properties of a sound system, which can get kind of old quickly to the non-involved observer, there is so much time they are held interested and then drift off to casual interaction. During that live performance the performer keeps the audience involved, no? But at home in your listening seat, what keeps you involved is not the performer but the performance.
Hm… I think there are multiple factors in it.

A first factor is that during live performance wify or whoever with you are naturally disciplined. No one will blend piña-colada or read New York Times during a life performance in let say Symphony Hall, even despite that quite many performances that come from there are worth the audiences to do it. However, in home setting leistering audio some people do not recognize it as a sacred ceremony. For instance Amy can do her signature smalltalk with a person who listening audio and she does not feel that it might be destructive. She for sure would never do it in concert hall.

Another factor is that wify for whatever reason when she sees me listening music she perceives that I “do nothing” and she accepts it as an invitation to herself. For sure as she invites herself to out listening couch then frequently all hell breaks loose and we did “ruined” quite a few listening sessions. I of cause do not complain about it but I also would like her to perceive my listening sessions with the same respect and esteem as I perceive her rehearsals. For whatever reason the non-audio people feel that “sitting” in front of playback is some kind of leisure time that no different from birds watching. Well, I am sure the flaks who a serious about birds watching would take on it with me…

It is not only a subject with Amy. It is well recognized by me that people who do not practice audio do not feel that listening serious music via audio is involved and serious process. At least it might be….

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 210
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 6
Post ID: 19970
Reply to: 19969
Beauty is in the ears of the listener(s)
fiogf49gjkf0d
I will propose a heretical stand: The problem is a deficiency of the advanced playback. The magic only happens in one place and that can be severely comprimised by geometric objects that were not calculated into the listening environment. Maybe we need a new paradigm for advanced listening: a sweeter spot for at least two.
If only one location draws you "into" the playback, it is very clear that the second seat person does not have the magic. They can become distracted and a distraction. Romy, maybe it is time to think about making playback more concert hall like - with multiple "optimal" listening positions. Give your kitten a prime spot and share the glory. Give her second best, and she will get the delta in other ways! Cats ALWAYS know where the weaknesses are.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,052
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 7
Post ID: 19971
Reply to: 19969
The Power of the Imagination
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, since you put it just like this, yes, this is EXACTLY how my wife sees it, that I am just sitting there for hours on end, parked motionless in front of speakers that make a lot of noise throughout the whole house, and all the while I act "as if" I am actually doing something "worthwhile" that should not be interfered with.  I think at best she sees it as something eccentric that "he has always done".  At the same time, I could never convince her that this should have priority over... anything "real".  I'm sure that, from her point of view, I could as easily be standing in an empty, silent room waving my arms while "leading an imaginary orchestra".

To really share the audio we need to have the "shared vision".  I have always done it solo, never figured to do it otherwise.


Paul S
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 19974
Reply to: 19971
Another great thread here
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hey Romy, does Amy read this? That would be a nice way of communicating the problem.

Hmmm.... RoAmy?

Roamy?

Ramy?

Anyway... I have a friend who's arranged a signal for his wife to leave him the f. alone -- a hat or cap on while in the house. She had something like that too, don't recall. Might work at your place. Maybe a yarmulke? ;-)

c
08-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 9
Post ID: 19977
Reply to: 19974
Attraction of reading, thinking, concentrating
fiogf49gjkf0d
For some reason, people are compelled to bother me when I am most focused, or want to be most focused. Thinking, reading, concentrating on a tough problem, listening to music...  This seems to be a bit of human nature at work. I sometimes do the same but have trained myself to better consider the other party's situation before interrupting. That is when I don't forget. 
Obviously, Clark's suggestion is superb!
08-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 19979
Reply to: 19977
Gazing between the Macondo chennals?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Actually I would be very much disappointed if we develop a relationship that would require sending signals that would make us to leave each other f. alone. I could perfectly comfortable in this setting with recursive girlfriends but I do not feel that it is wonderful to have with a wife. Amy is not a wife but she is the supper wife and she might be mesmerizingly fascinating as a listening partner. This however is not always applied to audio listening and I think that the reason is in a very low level of general culture that not-audio people have when they consume playback listening events.

When I for a first time went to Amy’s quartet readings I did not behave properly.  In my life I am accustomed to Milstein, Elman and Francescatti play and I am not accustomed to hear how semi-armatures play music. So, the first time I heard it I spoke, between the movement and after the pay.  Spoke and they were not happy about it. If the context of my talk is open for debate but what is not debatable was that I broke the rule of the house: in their world the quest does not talk during the readings. I was uninformed about it and after I was asked I behave differently during those events. 

So, they do have some own custom how they would like to consume own musical consumption, so do we in audio. The people who consider good listening companions do not run to restroom during opening of Mahler’s Urlicht, do not use the adagio from Tchaikovsky 5 to BBQ pork chops and do read iPad during Bruckner because “nothing is happening”.  It is fine to do all those things if you want to do those thing but it need to be untested that if your objective is in fact to listen music then listening is a full time ceremony and it shell not be share with anything else. When we listen we are in more or less selected location and listening is more or less meditative possess, not different then it is in a concert hall.

We have a phenomenal listening sessions with Amy. Once we woke at 3AM and developed eager for Mahler 2. So, we right there were listening my wonderful  Tanglewood recording, the whole symphony, at full volume and Amy “behaved”  absolutely dreamy. I still remember that feeling that I had and was laughing about the famous quote by Saint-Exupery that love is not gazing at each other but gazing in the same direction…. Why those listening experiences could not be invoked again and again?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 19980
Reply to: 19979
Great Saint-Exupery quote. NT
fiogf49gjkf0d
nt
08-25-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Posts 134
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 12
Post ID: 19982
Reply to: 19980
Two seats?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Same happened to me when I first started living with my wife,  she would come over lay in the couch besides me and start chatting:  It was very soon I let her know this is a ceremony, and she should not talk or make any noise, and if I am listening with my eyes closed, she should not come in talking, she should turn the lught on and wait for me to come back from Jupiter!
Sometimes when she comes in instead of making any noise or turmimg the light on she dances in front of me,  of course that messes the soundstage and I open my eyes immediately looking for smoke on the amps!  And then I have a good time watching her dance thinking I am not looking:  I think the best arrangement for our mutual listening is a sweet spot chair and a dancing pole right in the center!

About "doing nothing" I guess we all go through it and people should understand the power behind music listening.  It opens up new brain areas and irrigates the brain better than drugs.  I have done some Meditation, have been in Ashrams in India and Nepal and for me none of those were as powerful as music listening... It breaks the barrier of conciousness at a very deep level.

It is the best you can do for your mind and body!
08-26-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 19983
Reply to: 19982
The truth?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Last night Kitty and I went for see a local production of Broadway show that has to rename nameless as I am ashamed to admit that we went to see that crap. Well, parents invited us and that made the whole trip special, so we have to go.  So, we were sitting at the location where no people were in presence at least 20 feet around us. The show was boring like here and we all looking it to be over sooner. When I was trying to make some comments, very quiet and only in Amy’s ears, she reprimanded me and told that I shall not talk during the performances.

What the mean Cat. I told right the way that why when I am listening my music home and what I explicitly ask her do not talk to me she feel that it is OK to interrupt me. However, what we are at the show about neither or us even remotely care I shall remind silent. Her response was clever and “less clever” at the same time. She told me: ” When we are home I can bother only you but here at the concert my taking might bother other people.” I did point out that there are no other people. She kissed be in cheek and told me shut up. I told her that because the smell of her skin she can go away with many incredibly stupid things. She purred back and said “Can you stop talking?” I said “This is not fair” She said “I love you”. I said “Of cause, so what? Your love does not give you rights to be torturous to the subject of your love.” She looked at me as I was catapulted from another planet and told me “Enjoy the show”.  The female reasoning! God! Sometimes I am so envy to gay people…

The reality is that I very much do not want her to give me time off when I am listening my music just because I have “trained” her to respect my time. When I have some audio guys over and they listening then we do have some convention how we listening as that convention is MUTUALLY SUPPORTED. That mutual and voluntary support of prepare listening etiquette during audio listening is something that I would like to have in my wife. I do not want her to be afraid to interrupt me, or because she knows that I would give her some indulgence if she did not bother me during my listening. I would like her just to have a proper listening manners not because of me but because that is right manners to have and because here appreciation of the listening ceremony itself. I cared less about it in any other women I saw in my life and I was fine to “oblige” them to be quiet. I have absolutely no interest to oblige Amy to do anything and I would like her do not “push” herself to comply with me “stupid riles”. What I would like her to do is to naturally embrace the rules of proper listening etiquette and to become rather a partner in listening instead of being a conquest slave of listening. I am still working on it…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,052
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 14
Post ID: 19984
Reply to: 19983
Odds On Favorite
fiogf49gjkf0d
It  seems like the audio-centric part of the equation is not something that is taught so much as it is an interest that develops (or not...) for different reasons, and we at GSC hope that mining Serious Music drives the whole thing.  However, come to think of it, this idea of "mining" +/- familiar music may also be something that is more or less "a hi-fi thing", in the first place, let alone the ritualized adoration of a fairly ridiculous "reproduction", which most rational people might take as a form of idol worship, if they gave it any thought at all.  When we gather with "like-minded" audio guys we might as well be some cult or secret society.

We think we want a spouse that is "on board" with hi-fi "like we are", not simply as a means to an end (cultivating our appreciation of Music programs), but also - sorry -  there pretty much has to be the "appreciation of the Delivery System", as well.  While I have no doubt that there are women who really appreciate hi-fi gear, I have never actually met... 1, and this very certainly includes all female musicians I have known.

I have to ask here, how often do appreciation of hi-fi gear and evolved musical awareness co-exist in the same person?  And how likely is it that this person would also be attractive and attracted as a wife?


Interested parties might care to look at Hawthorne's, The Birthmark.


Best regards,
Paul S
08-26-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 15
Post ID: 19985
Reply to: 19982
10 out of 10 Points
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Jorge wrote:
Same happened to me when I first started living with my wife,  she would come over lay in the couch besides me and start chatting:  It was very soon I let her know this is a ceremony, and she should not talk or make any noise, and if I am listening with my eyes closed, she should not come in talking, she should turn the light on and wait for me to come back from Jupiter!
Sometimes when she comes in instead of making any noise or turming the light on she dances in front of me, of course that messes the soundstage and I open my eyes immediately looking for smoke on the amps

Gold!







Audiophile.jpg








Kind Regards
Stitch
08-26-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 16
Post ID: 19986
Reply to: 19983
Well said, Romy!
fiogf49gjkf0d
.
08-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 284
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 17
Post ID: 19987
Reply to: 19983
Delusions
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy said "The female reasoning! God! Sometimes I am so envy to gay people…"


And you seriously think you would escape it There!??

This is no different than any male oriented hobby except possibly for home repair. You could have model trains, short wave radio, working on the car etc etc and the result would be the same. Yes CJ was right that you need to don the Harvey pontifical chapeau, put on the robes, and adopt an intricate Yoga posture in addition to convince the SO that not only are you certifiable, you take it real real serious. Of course that leads to them eying the exit too. There is only a small percentage of women who don't want to do small talk and they have their own set of issues. What you might do is urr uhh writing, reading or working on the laptop while just by chance sitting in the sweet spot. 


08-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 19999
Reply to: 19962
Something to learn
fiogf49gjkf0d

It was very interesting event last night. Amy and I were visiting Living Voice Company. We did some listening and Kevin, the company owner, who very devoted to chamber mystic, played his favorite selections of Beethoven quarters. Amy mostly did not participate in your listening and spent time with Kevin’s wife but during the Beethoven quarters she was attracted to listening room, partially by the quarter that she played recently and partially by the tasty sandwich that Kevin’s wife made. So, she sat on the listening couch for whole two movements and in very dignified “default” posture, listening the music. She was very involved, was closing her eyes and was very full of attention.

As we left I asked Amy what she feel is difference in sound between Vox Olympians and our home installation.  She said that Living Voice  is more optimized for chamber quarters but Macondo is more optimized for large scale of music.  That was superbly interesting comment.

I pointed out to Amy that during the 1.5 years that she is living with our installation there was no single time when she discipline herself to listen a whole movement of any quartet. She always distract herself by putting clothes on and off, by laying more comfortable,  by drinking wine or eating cheese, by engaging me,  by doing whatever she does but she never did a truly full time listening. Here at Living Voice she was a guest of the house and she was not able to behave as he would do at home, so the circumstance made her to sit and to listens, just like that, not multitasking, no other activities then just to listen.  Suddenly, she loved it as she recognized that if she can focus only on the audio listening part then she understood that it might be very stimulating as well.

Of course I was very much disagree with her assessment of comparative capacity of Macondo and Vox Olympians  but it is very much not about the designers egos but about  give to Amy illustration  and to teach her how to listen. I brought to her the argument that I has in the paragraph above and pointed out to her that at home she never made an effort over herself to dedicate herself to just unadulterated listening.  She suddenly …. “got” is and she agreed. She also said that she will try home to do some focus listening with any behavioral cheating.

I am very glad for this development. I do not know it that will “work” but if it  does then for sure Amy will have a lot of interesting discoveries in her way.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 19
Post ID: 20001
Reply to: 19999
Punctum saliens
fiogf49gjkf0d
She's reached it!

c
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  »  New  I have a dream, the dream about a Chair...  A bit exaggerated to me....  Playback Listening  Forum     31  98055  10-29-2009
  »  New  How would you handle it?..  Spanish lessons...  Playback Listening  Forum     24  32829  05-16-2013
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