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04-13-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 1
Post ID: 19217
Reply to: 19217
Lamm ML2.0 & Lamhorn/AER
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've heard so much about these legendary SET mono-blocks; but as I understand it, it's VERY important to match them up with proper (efficient) speakers.Anyway, I'd welcome some feedback on matching these amps with Lamhorn 1.8's + AER MD3B drivers (~100dB, 16 ohms).
Thanks,(BTW, this is me first post on this forum)
04-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 19218
Reply to: 19217
Done right
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is always a better solution to go with high sensitive speaker designs in combination with tube amps. The Lamm amps will work very well with such sensitive speakers.Speakers should be always seen in a combination with a matching amp. Makes life much easier.


Kind Regards
Stitch
04-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 19220
Reply to: 19217
I know, it is my falt.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 HookEm wrote:
I've heard so much about these legendary SET mono-blocks; but as I understand it, it's VERY important to match them up with proper (efficient) speakers.Anyway, I'd welcome some feedback on matching these amps with Lamhorn 1.8's + AER MD3B drivers (~100dB, 16 ohms).

HookEm, what you ask is in a way irrelevant. The topology of Lamhorn, the single driver with back-loaded horn appendix, implies very specific sound and very specific way of use those speakers.  I am pretty sure that 18W Lamms will be able to handle it. I am also very sure that Lamms will not the weakest element in your intellection. Put in this way – pretend you pay many hundreds dollars for some super-duper powerful power screwdriver… and then use the handle of this screwdriver to drive nails into the wall. This is how I feel about the idea to drive the amp of Lamm 2.0 quality with a single driver back-loaded loudspeaker.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-14-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 4
Post ID: 19221
Reply to: 19220
Lamm 2.0 & Horns
fiogf49gjkf0d
OK, would you say the weak link would then be:
1) Just the topology of Lamhorn (single driver with back-loaded horn appendix)
2) Any single driver back-loaded loudspeaker in general
3) Or any single driver loudspeaker in general

Or perhaps a better question could be:
Are there single driver speakers/topologies out there that would do justice to what the Lamm 2.0 is able to deliver?
(if so, could the AER MD3B be the driver in a such a loudspeaker?)
Thanks for the feedback.
04-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 19222
Reply to: 19221
Flying under radars…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 HookEm wrote:
OK, would you say the weak link would then be:
1) Just the topology of Lamhorn (single driver with back-loaded horn appendix)
2) Any single driver back-loaded loudspeaker in general
3) Or any single driver loudspeaker in general

Or perhaps a better question could be:
Are there single driver speakers/topologies out there that would do justice to what the Lamm 2.0 is able to deliver?
(if so, could the AER MD3B be the driver in a such a loudspeaker?)
Thanks for the feedback.
Good question, HookEm. I would say my answer would be 2, “Any single driver back-loaded loudspeaker in general”. Do not get me wrong, driving your, or any other single drivers would do fine by ML2.0 and you will be able to feel the difference between this Lamm and most of other SETs, still in my mind the fundamental flows of the back-loaded single drivers will shine though with any other amps and with Lamms in particularly. It does not mean that it would not allow you to enjoy what you will be getting but my detaste of the back-loaded single drivers is well known, so here it went. In context of your original question and my feeling that it was irrelevant: let me to rephrase what I said. What you ask was irrelevant as (and it is very much in my view) the sonic problems deriving from mismatching SETs and loudspeakers are way under the radars of the sonic problems deriving from the back-loaded single driver topology.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 6
Post ID: 19224
Reply to: 19222
Lamm 2.0 & Horns - Part II
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Good question, HookEm. I would say my answer would be 2, “Any single driver back-loaded loudspeaker in general”. Do not get me wrong, driving your, or any other single drivers would do fine by ML2.0 and you will be able to feel the difference between this Lamm and most of other SETs, still in my mind the fundamental flows of the back-loaded single drivers will shine though with any other amps and with Lamms in particularly. It does not mean that it would not allow you to enjoy what you will be getting but my detaste of the back-loaded single drivers is well known, so here it went. In context of your original question and my feeling that it was irrelevant: let me to rephrase what I said. What you ask was irrelevant as (and it is very much in my view) the sonic problems deriving from mismatching SETs and loudspeakers are way under the radars of the sonic problems deriving from the back-loaded single driver topology.

Rgs, Romy the Cat
OK, I see your point.
Well, to provide some context: I'm looking to put together a system to "play music", and I'm thinking the amp & speaker combo should lay the foundation, and hopefully a solid one. So I'd welcome your feedback on other single driver speakers (topologies) that would best match these amps (or perhaps other types of speakers that would best accomplish the goal: playing music).  As a point of practicality, I should mention room dimensions are just ~17'x15' (with 11' ceiling) - not a huge room by any means; plus, let's not forget the WAF (so looks do matter - LOL).  Thanks.
Great_Room.png
04-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 19225
Reply to: 19224
You will decide.
fiogf49gjkf0d
HookEm,

I could only advised you on methodological aspect as I do not extend any recommendations about purchasing decisions.  The 17x15 x11 is a very large room for a single driver speaker. If you insist to use a single driver speaker then get whatever you like from this topology and get to yourself some kind of $3K worth 211/845 integrated stereos SET. As you settle with the sound you get then you can bring Lamm 2.0 to to see if it worth to you. Lamm are monobloks, need a preamp, have large foot print and if it is your living room then your WAF might be hurt.   You will get more interesting sound with Lamms but then you will be able to see HOW more interesting it is and is it important to you. It is extra $10K and it is much more demands for playback. If I feel that I am OK with result I get from a single driver speaker then I would not go for Lamms. Again, it would be your decisions as only you know what you looking forward to get and what your definition is of "play music".


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 8
Post ID: 19226
Reply to: 19225
In search of music
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
HookEm,

I could only advised you on methodological aspect as I do not extend any recommendations about purchasing decisions.  The 17x15 x11 is a very large room for a single driver speaker. If you insist to use a single driver speaker then get whatever you like from this topology and get to yourself some kind of $3K worth 211/845 integrated stereos SET. As you settle with the sound you get then you can bring Lamm 2.0 to to see if it worth to you. Lamm are monobloks, need a preamp, have large foot print and if it is your living room then your WAF might be hurt.   You will get more interesting sound with Lamms but then you will be able to see HOW more interesting it is and is it important to you. It is extra $10K and it is much more demands for playback. If I feel that I am OK with result I get from a single driver speaker then I would not go for Lamms. Again, it would be your decisions as only you know what you looking forward to get and what your definition is of "play music".

Well, I've already done that, and I'm not satisfied with the sound.  I'm driving the Lamhorn/AER with a PX-25 SET (Art Audio, 6wpc).Ummh, perhaps I should consider more of a full-range arrangement (2 or 3-way)?
04-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 19227
Reply to: 19226
Some homework?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 HookEm wrote:
… I'm not satisfied with the sound. …

…and what are the specific area of dissatisfaction? Can you write a list of what you feel is not right?

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

Rgs, The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-15-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 10
Post ID: 19228
Reply to: 19227
About the sound...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 HookEm wrote:
… I'm not satisfied with the sound. …

…and what are the specific area of dissatisfaction? Can you write a list of what you feel is not right?

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

Rgs, The caT

The reproduction does not seem natural... too far away from what I would hear at a live event (e.g., female vocalist).  Sort of bright and fatiguing at times. I may not be using the proper terminology to describe it, but I do know (my ears & my head tell me) it just ain't right... it just doesn't sound like (or close enough to) real music/voices.

I do realize there are a lot factors that can play into that, starting at the source, so I don't expect there's "magical" or "cure-all" answer - For exmaple: I do start with digital sources (I don't have a turntable & records), and that may not optimal, or how a "serious" systems should start; but, it's practical, and I'd like to explore making it work better if that's possible.

04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 19229
Reply to: 19228
A single yellow driver.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 HookEm wrote:
The reproduction does not seem natural... too far away from what I would hear at a live event (e.g., female vocalist).  Sort of bright and fatiguing at times. I may not be using the proper terminology to describe it, but I do know (my ears & my head tell me) it just ain't right... it just doesn't sound like (or close enough to) real music/voices.

I do realize there are a lot factors that can play into that, starting at the source, so I don't expect there's "magical" or "cure-all" answer - For exmaple: I do start with digital sources (I don't have a turntable & records), and that may not optimal, or how a "serious" systems should start; but, it's practical, and I'd like to explore making it work better if that's possible.

I do think hat it is very important to describe to yourself what specifically dissatisfies you in sound. Until you do it your updates of equipment and acquisition will be shooting is virtual moving target, sort of audio mirages. That feeling that it does not seem natural to you is fine feeling but there are two elements that you need to take under consideration. First – it not suppose to feel natural, this is not live music but a playback. If you feel that playback might sound like life music then you are delusional. Second – it is not right objectives to have playback that would pursue the illusion of neutrality of sound. I do have the answers about the right objectives but I have my reasons do not share them with you and I would like you to develop those answers for yourself.

I do not know the Art Audio amp you use. As I underrated this is some kind of new production with PX-25 tube it might be anything, from something interesting to complete garbage.  What I know however that it is 6W and I do feel that it is not enough for your room. The ported yellow drivers  (that back loading horn is not horn but eventually wave-guiding port) can be wonderful MF driver but as soon then go to lower MF, not to mention to upperbass then sound goes to toilet. In your case the room has a toll sealing that creates LOT of low octave dissipation and you need a lot of power to fill it. If you pay attention than I pitched you 845/211 tube that would give you 20W not 6W. there is a problem however to pump more power into the back loaded yellow drivers. As exertion of them rise they sound worse with each octave down and what the sewer pipe the they call “horn” kick in then all lights are off and any “better amplifier” would not help.

For sure you can bring more powerful amp, or something like ML2 that is better sounding amp but it would not address the single yellow driver problem.  Sine you willing to stay with your single driver speakers (and there is nothing wrong with it) then it is an indication of efforts you willing to invest to get sound in your room. Please, do not feel that I accuse you that you are not willing to do something “more evolve”. That is perfectly fine; I just try to recommend you to think about a solution that would be coordinated with the rest of efforts. 

So, if I were in your place I would probably live everything as you have now but just high-pas the yellow driver at let say 200-250Hz (400Hz with over-second order will be the best) and put two cheap subwoofers next to the Lamhorns. This might or might not produce to you the sound that you want but it will unload lower octave from the yellow driver and it would give you an illustration how it might perform if it is not stressed. It is very possible that your IDH PX-25 SET will go very fine in there and then you will just realized that you need a dedicated LF solution. Do not forget to take notes and literally write to yourself what sonic changes you experience and what sonic problems you recognize.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #: 12
Post ID: 19230
Reply to: 19229
Perforated / Carbon Plate
fiogf49gjkf0d
HookEm wrote: "Sort of bright and fatiguing at times."   I wonder about your tubes.  In my systems Carbon Plate Tubes = more high & low extension, more detail, but extended listening wears me out - fatiguing.   Perforated Plate = 12 hours of listening - very easy. Best to you,zz.
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #: 13
Post ID: 19231
Reply to: 19230
Edit Solid Plate vs Perforated Plate
fiogf49gjkf0d
Edit:  I think it would be better if I said Solid Plated vs. Perforated Plate Output Tubes.   Perforated being the winner with 12 hours of listening - very easy.Best to you,  zz.
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 19232
Reply to: 19231
Wonder about tubes…
fiogf49gjkf0d
zztop7, wondering about the tubes in this case I think would be similar to treating the metastatic cancer with Tylenol. It is wife-accommodating room with cathedral ceiling. Most likely the ceiling is not treated, the wife is happy for sure about that. Plus, it is 6W SET with full range yellow driver working in relatively large room. The bright and fatiguing sound is very much default sound, particularly if volume any more or less high. I am sure that investing in better Marconi PX-25 tube would be fun but it will not address the fundamental topological reasons.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 15
Post ID: 19233
Reply to: 19229
About the "Yellow cones"
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 I do have the answers about the right objectives but I have my reasons do not share them with you and I would like you to develop those answers for yourself.

Fair enough.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
... Sine you willing to stay with your single driver speakers (and there is nothing wrong with it) then it is an indication of efforts you willing to invest to get sound in your room. Please, do not feel that I accuse you that you are not willing to do something “more evolve”. That is perfectly fine; I just try to recommend you to think about a solution that would be coordinated with the rest of efforts. 

So, if I were in your place I would probably live everything as you have now but just high-pas the yellow driver at let say 200-250Hz (400Hz with over-second order will be the best) and put two cheap subwoofers next to the Lamhorns. This might or might not produce to you the sound that you want but it will unload lower octave from the yellow driver and it would give you an illustration how it might perform if it is not stressed. It is very possible that your IDH PX-25 SET will go very fine in there and then you will just realized that you need a dedicated LF solution. Do not forget to take notes and literally write to yourself what sonic changes you experience and what sonic problems you recognize.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

Actually, I would prefer moving towards a more permanent solution (for practical, and frankly, economic reasons); and if that means moving away from the single driver (yellow cone), so be it... Now if having the subs in place would be also useful with a different speaker configuration, perhaps adding them now may be a good place to start?... about the crossover (200-250 Hz), would that be built-in to the (self-powered?) subs? (i.e., line out to sub, and from there, HP filtered to to the amp)... But perhaps adding subs would be overkill (or throw-away) if I move away from the "yellow cones"?... BTW, what is "IDH"?... As for taking notes: You bet!, I'm already taking notes!
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 16
Post ID: 19234
Reply to: 19231
Output Tubes plates
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zztop7 wrote:
Edit:  I think it would be better if I said Solid Plated vs. Perforated Plate Output Tubes.   Perforated being the winner with 12 hours of listening - very easy.Best to you,  zz.
Thanks for your feedback... But, as Romy says, (sadly for me), I have bigger fish to fry (LOL).
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 19235
Reply to: 19233
It is hard to say.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 HookEm wrote:
Actually, I would prefer moving towards a more permanent solution (for practical, and frankly, economic reasons); and if that means moving away from the single driver (yellow cone), so be it... Now if having the subs in place would be also useful with a different speaker configuration, perhaps adding them now may be a good place to start?... about the crossover (200-250 Hz), would that be built-in to the (self-powered?) subs? (i.e., line out to sub, and from there, HP filtered to to the amp)... But perhaps adding subs would be overkill (or throw-away) if I move away from the "yellow cones"?... BTW, what is "IDH"?... As for taking notes: You bet!, I'm already taking notes!
 
It is hard to say. it is always nice to have some kind of crappy self-powered sub when you deal with yellow cones – this way you can test how your essentially MF drivers works without being stress by LF. Some speakers do implements use of the yellow drivers just for MF and they do very fine. I do not advise you to do anything, I juts explain my reasons why I think investing into Lamm ML2 will be not right move. Lamm will have much more power and much more bass. Lamm will have incredibly properly structured bass – the bass that no one yellow driver, particularly back-loaded will not be able to embrace.
 
The IDH is indirect direct-heated tube; witch was in fact my miss-spelling as your PX-25 is direct-heated. The reason I brought the direct-heated factor to the table as the direct-heated tubes can in class A2 if the amp driver has current to push them. So, it is possible that 6W of your DH PX-25 will be enough for your room if you do not drive bass with your PX-25.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 18
Post ID: 19251
Reply to: 19235
Well, the "Yellow cones" did get some help...
fiogf49gjkf0d
It turns out that I do have this one (big) sub (B&W ASW 3000), that has stereo Line level & Speaker level Ins/Outs.

So, the AER's did get some relief, providing some tangible improvements: more detail, less strain, keeping me on the chair longer (e.g., I can hear more harmonics on the strings during Norah Jones' "Lonestar").
But, although it seems things are moving in a good direction, the overall presentation still seems a bit dry (not as fluid as my head tells me it should be).
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,148
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 19
Post ID: 19255
Reply to: 19251
Problems Likely Not the Amps
fiogf49gjkf0d
HE, you've gotten a long run so far without anyone asking if you've read the site.  Have you?  There are long threads on the Lamms and the Lowthers that might offer you some food for thought.  One thing I would recommend is playing with the ML2 "plate loading", including output taps, which is well-described in the ML2 thread, if you've not done so already.  And remember that the AERs and Lowthers notoriously hate subs, although they do sound much better when they are shed of LF, or anything approaching LF, not to mention getting more from the ML2s (by asking less) by using another amp for large/heavy drivers.  Likely, in terms of sub performance, you should not run your subs up as high as 400 Hz, 1st order; but it would probably be best for the Lammhorn sound if you could.  Although you will likely never shed the effects from the driver/speaker itself, no matter what you do, you might be able to get more of the sound or sound effects you want if you stay focused and systematic.

Best regards,
Paul S
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HookEm
Posts 12
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 20
Post ID: 19256
Reply to: 19255
Plate Loading
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
HE, you've gotten a long run so far without anyone asking if you've read the site.  Have you?  There are long threads on the Lamms and the Lowthers that might offer you some food for thought.  One thing I would recommend is playing with the ML2 "plate loading", including output taps, which is well-described in the ML2 thread, if you've not done so already.  And remember that the AERs and Lowthers notoriously hate subs, although they do sound much better when they are shed of LF, or anything approaching LF, not to mention getting more from the ML2s (by asking less) by using another amp for large/heavy drivers.  Likely, in terms of sub performance, you should not run your subs up as high as 400 Hz, 1st order; but it would probably be best for the Lammhorn sound if you could.  Although you will likely never shed the effects from the driver/speaker itself, no matter what you do, you might be able to get more of the sound or sound effects you want if you stay focused and systematic.

Best regards,
Paul S

Thanks PaulS, I will search the archived threads.
BTW, I''m not using ML2's... I'm merely considering that as an option.
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