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  »  New  3012, 312, M2-12 or ... ?..  A closure....  Analog Playback Forum     1  11686  10-17-2008
  »  New  Here is my new tonearm...  Korvet TT in German...  Analog Playback Forum     9  101095  12-11-2004
  »  New  Micro Seiki MAX 282 User Manual..  Micro Seiki MAX 282 User Manual...  Analog Playback Forum     0  19973  03-16-2005
  »  New  SME M2-12 tonearm..  M2-12R specs...  Analog Playback Forum     10  92020  07-26-2004
  »  New  Which SME 3009?..  Changing EAR834P loading...  Analog Playback Forum     10  59365  07-01-2005
  »  New  Shelter 901 on SME 309 tonearm...  I wish I was so smart at beginning…...  Analog Playback Forum     3  28344  12-08-2009
12-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 12413
Reply to: 12413
Lithuania enters the game: Reed 12" Tonearm
fiogf49gjkf0d

A local audio recently bought a tonearm form a small Lithuania manufacturer. They have a web site, a but foolish in navigation but it is what it is:

http://www.turntables.lt/

http://www.turntables.lt/gallery.html

http://www.turntables.lt/research.html

The tonearm left s pleasant impression, though you would never know until you put tonearm on your own TT and spend a few days with it. I am not interested in tonearm but I would like to let know that Lithuanians do it.


Effective length: 240 mm (9,5") or 308,8 mm (12")
Mounting distance: 223 mm (9,5") or 295,6 mm (12")
Overhang: 17 mm (9,5") or 13,2 mm (12")
Offset angle: 23° (9,5") or 17,63° (12")
Effective mass: 12 g (9,5") or 16 g (12")
Height adjustment: applicable to 20÷42 mm height platters
Downforce range: 10÷30 mN
Tonearm bearings: carbide points and sapphire thrust pad
Antiskating: lever antiskating mechanism on sapphire bearings
Armtube: western redcedar (Thuja plicata)
•  C37 Finewire Standard
•  C37 Finewire Cryo, Eichmann Bullet plugs
•  C37 Finewire Cryo, WBT Nextgen
•  Combined (tonearm wiring: Cardas; tonearm to preamp: Tasker C286 balanced; RCA connector: Neutrik).
Available in Rhodium, Gold, Gold Matte, Black, and Seashell White editions.
Frame and adjustment parts manufactured by Stevila Ltd.
Support frame and other part plating done at Lithuanian Institute of Chemistry.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-04-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 12414
Reply to: 12413
Nice sketches!
fiogf49gjkf0d

Yes, the site has funky navigation, but the sketches are beautiful!


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-04-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 12416
Reply to: 12413
What I think Reed marketing is missing… some criticism.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, how to maintain their site it is the matter of their own business of cause. Still, I think what they do with site is silly. The people who go there do have ALREADY a specific interest and they look for information, not for a presentation style. Those modal, tweeter-size dialog boxes that are popping up are ridicules. Still, again, it is their site and they allowed doing whatever they want.

What I true missing at their site is a lucid explanation of relation between the objective scientific data that they collect and the applied listening experiences. For instance they have some graphs with tonearms tube of different materials.

Western Redcedar
Ebony Macassar
Cocobolo
Pernambucco
Pao Ferro
Panzerholtz (Tankwood)

Sure, all materials would do deferent sonic transfer, not to mention the different thickness of the tube’s walls and different filling of the tubes will affect sonic transfer as well.  They put some diagrams indicating how one tube differs from another. So, what? Those differences are visible on the graphs but they are not interpretable in teams of practical sonic advantages and disadvantages person we might get from a whole playback. I presume (and this is VERY bold assumption) that the people who manufacture Reed arms do know those advantages/disadvantages and if they do then they need to outline their observations. The people who buy or consider buying the Reed would have no idea what type of tube to order. No one dealer would be able to give this assessment as well –the dealers are all idiots from the perspective of sound understanding and they are too ignorant from audio-intellectual perspective. So, since the Reed offer different options the results of those options shall be explained by Reed marketing in teams of user benefits (if the read people do know it themselves of cause).

I am not picking on Reed specifically, they are very broad demands I would have to any tonearm manufacturer.

The next subject of my bitching is that I still waiting a tonearm manufacturer with bolls would show up but they I see do not exist. If I manufacture a tonearm and if I feel that my tonearm is sonically good then I would make a statement where I would position my tonearm in sonic hierarchy to other tonearms. For instance I consider the best sonic tonearm of all time was SME 3012, some might disagree but they are clueless and they are worthless to talk with them about tonearms sound. So, I make a tonearm and if I feel that my tonearm is better than 3012 then why wouldn’t I enumerate the very specific sonic advantages my tonearm has over 3012? Of course I would – this is how the things shall be sold in my view. Where is the Reed's and other's statement about the sound of thier tonearm in relation to 3012? Not there….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
perrew
Posts 30
Joined on 10-06-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 12428
Reply to: 12416
Reed Wood
fiogf49gjkf0d
FWIW Ive heard people with Reed arms like the Red Cedar, which is also the cheapest alternative, arm wands due to neutral sound.The Panzerholz is heavier and some think might be too heavy for 12" arm.Romy, what does the 3012 do better than the FR-66s arm?/P
12-06-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 12430
Reply to: 12428
The fantasies about the wand’s mass.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 perrew wrote:
FWIW Ive heard people with Reed arms like the Red Cedar, which is also the cheapest alternative, arm wands due to neutral sound.The Panzerholz is heavier and some think might be too heavy for 12" arm.

I never understood all those conversations about heavier wands or lighter wands… What all this silliness came from? The Mass of the wand, along with mass of cartridge, shell and the shit that we pile up sometimes in shell make the effective mass of the whole construction. The effective mass talks to cartridge compliance. That is it. If you have wand with less mass then juts add a few grams to shell. There is absolutely no advantage or disadvantage of light or heavy wand. You have too heavy wand – juts add more mass on the other side of tonearm. The few grams of the wand difference does not make any affect to dynamic balance of arm. The material, stiffness and construction of wand do but mass do not.

 perrew wrote:
what does the 3012 do better than the FR-66s arm?/P

It is incorrect question to ask. The right question shall be: what 3012 does bad that it need to be “improved” by FR-66s ?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
perrew
Posts 30
Joined on 10-06-2009

Post #: 6
Post ID: 12432
Reply to: 12430
Effective mass vs. Real mass
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I never understood all those conversations about heavier wands or lighter wands… What all this silliness came from? The Mass of the wand, along with mass of cartridge, shell and the shit that we pile up sometimes in shell make the effective mass of the whole construction. The effective mass talks to cartridge compliance. That is it. If you have wand with less mass then juts add a few grams to shell. There is absolutely no advantage or disadvantage of light or heavy wand. You have too heavy wand – juts add more mass on the other side of tonearm. The few grams of the wand difference does not make any affect to dynamic balance of arm. The material, stiffness and construction of wand do but mass do not.
The Cat

Romy, I agree, I also never understood why mass so important, thats why I said "some" think it to heavy. I should have just written the Panzerholz is heavier, but still the people I talked to said it to heavy.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

It is incorrect question to ask. The right question shall be: what 3012 does bad that it need to be “improved” by FR-66s ?


The Cat


I presume you think it incorrect question due to your preference for 3012, but still posing it your way makes me feel you think the 3012 can be improved upon by the 66s, I thought you thought it could not?
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arlequen


Brescia (Italy)
Posts 4
Joined on 11-05-2010

Post #: 7
Post ID: 14865
Reply to: 12428
Reed 3Q
fiogf49gjkf0d
 perrew wrote:
FWIW Ive heard people with Reed arms like the Red Cedar, which is also the cheapest alternative, arm wands due to neutral sound.The Panzerholz is heavier and some think might be too heavy for 12" arm.


I'm just testing a Reed3Q 12" inches .. Ziricote wood .. kinda 22gr. arm tube mass...
Unfortunately I don't have any experience with 12" inches arms .. always had only 9" ...  but I think I need the Red Cedar wood cos its mass decreases to 14gr... a better choice for standard 14/15cu compliance cartridges like my Benz LP

Btw a great arm ... no question!


*** In Stylus Veritas!! ***
11-06-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 14872
Reply to: 14865
Love of prejudicial geography.
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is good that you like that Lithuania new tonearm. A local guy of my who has it also like but I do not like him….  Unfortunately I am not on the  tonearm market or I would try it against my beloved absolute reference – the 3012....

I know it is very stupid but there are countries to which I very much positively predisposed.  This is some kind of racisms but it is what it is. In Europe I like Germans, Lithuanians and Czechoslovakians. All for different reasons but nevertheless …

Lithuanians even under Russians were “different” and had very advanced radio industry. Unfortunately advances in radio industry are necessary get converted in good hi-end audio products but as I said above…. nevertheless…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-06-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Arlequen


Brescia (Italy)
Posts 4
Joined on 11-05-2010

Post #: 9
Post ID: 14875
Reply to: 14872
Viva Europe!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks for lt me know your euro tastes .. Romy .. but it would be more interesting for me a debating on arm mass and cartridge compliance.



*** In Stylus Veritas!! ***
11-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 10
Post ID: 14877
Reply to: 14875
The Average will become "The Reference"
fiogf49gjkf0d
We are in a new chapter of High end:
 
Copies     
Well Tempered: Schroeder
Triplanar         : Talea
DaVinci           : Reed
What do they have in common?
No own idea
No new calculation
Cheap Arm wands (wood)
Aggressive marketing via Internet with some deaf morons....
and  Internet Hype from "customers" who have absolutely no idea from anything. Discussion about compliance?  
For what, when the user absolutely no idea from anything ? This discussion is completely useless, because you have so many different Armwands with different resonances and damping abilities (Ceramic, Titan, Steel, Aluminum, Composite materials, Wood, then additional dampening inside and so on...) .
This is what we have today, old Designers (from age) who had some brain, engineered knowledge and an idea what-is-responsible-for-what. Herb Papier (Triplanar) is dead, followed from Tri-Mai who is not able to rethink this design and to improve it, Bob Graham is the only one today who is able to think about it and to find new solutions and so on.
Now we have cheap wood, nicely polished, fitted with huge mark ups to find dealers in the market to get it and to promote it. Yuk.
Sometimes I think, I tree in a forest know more about High end than the users today. Maybe that's the reason why wood is used in so many "designs" today.

Ah, something for amusement:
In Germany a High End Magazine made a comparison between the new Lyra Kleos and the Lyra Titan, they used a Linn Ekos Arm for it, or two, don't know and they switched cartridges for comparison. The result was, "they" claimed the new new Kleos as their new Reference, MUCH better than the Titan at half price (btw. The Titan is discontinued anyway.)

Now a customer in a German Forum bought the Kleos and was (or is) not able to adjust it properly in his - same -Ekos Arm (factory drill with LP12), now he compared the pictures from the magazine and wrote, that the position of the cartridge there is completely different and in a position which is completely wrong to any alignment tools he has.
Now some say, this is quite normal, the cartridges will be always moved in a position for shooting a better pic of it (ha-ha-ha)...

I am pretty sure, they never listened to it.

(I had both cartridges here, the Kleos and the Titan and the difference between them is so huge - Titan can deliver endless more details and has a MUCH deeper soundstage - that even an old, dead, buried dog, 6 feet under, could hear it...)

I know their writer, I was at one of their demos a few years ago, a piece of wood has more brain....*ahem* the circle is closed.

Or?


Kind Regards
Stitch
11-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 14878
Reply to: 14877
Overlook while everything goes
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stitch, you expressed a very valid point of view. We are at severe devaluation of reference points and nowadays any Moron with a rudimental knowledge of HTML and a few vocal cronies can become a “reputed manufacturer”. A few months ago a guy I know bough a new expensive cartridge by a nowadays famous manufacturer. When he showed it to me before mounting I was surprised that cantilever was free moving when I flip the cartridge in my hands. I told to my guy that the cartridge is defective but he insisted that this is how it was designed. I did not believe my ears and asked “what designed?” He explained to me that the cartridge is made with cantilever having a small sliding table in order to improve playing the records with off center cut center whole. Can you believe that someone has “brain” to design it?

Saying all of it I do not feel that it might be no good solutions from today analog manufacturers. The good solutions very much might show up and it not necessary depending of the knowledge or ability of manufactures to assess what they do. The problem with today manufactures is not that they do not know what they do but that there is no critical perception of what they do. Most of the turntables out there sound like a good CD players from 90s. The reviewers, something that shall be a first echelon of Quality Assurance are fucking joke. 90% of the analog end users are not able to identify a difference between LP and CD or report that this CD are better. Of cause in this environment everything goes. Still, among everything that goes it might be something worthy.

My comments of defense are not about the new Lithuanian tonearm. I do not like that fact that they offer an ambiguity of wand materials – this is bad sigh in my books. However a new arm shall not have own ideas or new calculations – it shall have stable default sound. Has the Lithuanian tonearm it or not is not up to me to think. But I do not deny the arm just because it is a new production. BTW, Arlequen, I did not as much share my euro tastes but informed that Lithuania was very prominent electronic manufacturer country during Russian time.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 12
Post ID: 14885
Reply to: 14878
It is even worse
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
We are at severe devaluation of reference points and nowadays any Moron with a rudimental knowledge of HTML and a few vocal cronies can become a “reputed manufacturer”.


Hi Romy, it is even worse. Based on the high number of these full time idiots (in real life they are school teachers, tourist guides or god-knows-what-but-without-any-knowledge-what-is-responsible-for-what*) every critical word about their "product" will end in personal fights and private emails to discredit someone.
(* before I forget it, when some young, unexperienced "manufacturers" read this thread -by accident of course -, tell everybody that you are a retired watch maker, this sounds very important and will give you every credit...)


Examples

Have you ever seen something new design from these guys which is expensive in production?  (Titan armwand for example, tampered Arm tubes...)?

Have you ever seen a copy from a Tonearm which is a bit complicated to manufacture, lets say similar to SME 3012 with knife bearing, FR Arms, Graham Phantom or Seiki Arms....?

I haven't. All I see and saw is cheap crap, soft metal, wood which does not ruin the tools and is always super simple to do. I know Arms from Germany which are max. 400,-- until they are ready to go and are in the market for 6000,-- and of course with the Hype of the usual idiots whose Systems will make you die 20 years earlier when you would listen to it.

Next great chapter:  Turntables

Here it is even more worse. For CD Player tuning, Preamp, amp someone needs a touch of knowledge, the brain free zone is reserved for Turntable "Manufacturers" and here you find not a few ones, they are endless. The more idiotic the design is, the more expensive they are... marble platter without suspension, cheapest direct drives with "expensive" plinths ... it is endless today.

And at the end of day after all discussions the customer says: "But I like it"

Make my Day :-)


Kind Regards
Stitch
Page 1 of 1 (12 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  3012, 312, M2-12 or ... ?..  A closure....  Analog Playback Forum     1  11686  10-17-2008
  »  New  Here is my new tonearm...  Korvet TT in German...  Analog Playback Forum     9  101095  12-11-2004
  »  New  Micro Seiki MAX 282 User Manual..  Micro Seiki MAX 282 User Manual...  Analog Playback Forum     0  19973  03-16-2005
  »  New  SME M2-12 tonearm..  M2-12R specs...  Analog Playback Forum     10  92020  07-26-2004
  »  New  Which SME 3009?..  Changing EAR834P loading...  Analog Playback Forum     10  59365  07-01-2005
  »  New  Shelter 901 on SME 309 tonearm...  I wish I was so smart at beginning…...  Analog Playback Forum     3  28344  12-08-2009
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