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08-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 11587
Reply to: 11587
About the Critical Audio Tune ™
fiogf49gjkf0d

I reread my posts at

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=11547

 and

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=3981

and

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=10998

I also listened the Carlos Kleiber’s Brahms #4 with “wrong tome” as few other playbacks. At other playbacks the “sliding of the tune” was way less auditable. Listing the same with Macondo/Melquiades combo made the very minute deviation of the tone scramming right in my face. I do not know the reason but I asked myself if it is so then is it possible to USE the hypersensitive Macondo/Melquiades to pitch and to write my own pitch, OK not the pitch but a slight alternation of tone, using the Macondo’s driver and Melquiades’ channels as a very high resolution equalizer that has zero negative impact to sound but able very slightly moderate the tone.

I have very clear vision how I would like Sound to sound from being “correct” on dead pith. I would like Sound to be “almost on the dead pitch” but not exactly there. I would like playback to retune sound to be a bit off but the amplitude of this off shall set attention but not exasperation.  I decided to call it Critical Audio Tune ™. So, I desired to try.

I took a more or less neutrally-tuned Minnesota SO under baton of Stanislaw Skrowaczewsky, spin the Scherzo from Bruckner Ninths and began to play with Fundamental, MF, Injection and HF Channels. This time I did not care bout measurable perfection but only about the moderation of the orchestral tune. Soon enough I found a setting where the Minnesota was “retuned” and the orchestral higher instruments were a bit “different”. I have to noted that the astonishing and in way crazy harmonics of the YO186 played a role in this – it would be more difficult to do with more neutral tube.

The result turned out to be VERY interesting. The playback has that “twist” now that makes higher pitchers as they shall be but a bit more “dangers”. It is very hard to explain, it need to be heard. The mind kind of keeps racing to catch the pitch but it going on and on and there is no way to settle it. It is like an attempt to get a speed of boat by visual means  in open ocean what there is no reference to a stationary object.

I like the effect a lot and will live with this setting for now. Let see how it goes…

CarWithPinao.jpg

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 2
Post ID: 11588
Reply to: 11587
'Loose cannon' sound...
fiogf49gjkf0d
is what I have called it, and what I hear you are describing? I wonder for how long you will be OK with it.
We have had this effect by using 1st order crossover with absolute minimal insertion loss, so you would now listing to uncorrected drivers in 'full beauty' of their idiosyncratic artefacts.
It can be initially exiting to drive with no 'breaks', but the longer you listen the more you will know that something is not 'right'. It is a trade off, total 'openness', hearing EVERYTHING --- and a lot of this 'everything' is not part of the recorded 'intention' i.e. driver artefacts and it will impart this on ALL that you are listening to.
Like putting salt even into you tea or coffee (some like it though).

It is of course also true, that artefacts of resistors, capacitors, inductors and their cores of each correction circuit duly add their one 'dulling' effect to the signal.
Enjoy it while it lasts,
Axel



08-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 11589
Reply to: 11588
Loos vs. strategic offset
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Axel wrote:
is what I have called it, and what I hear you are describing? I wonder for how long you will be OK with it.

Yes, I might call it in way a “Loose Cannon sound” but the work “loose” is a bit misleading as the “tone” is not loose but strategicly offset. Loose impales randomness and erraticism . There is nothing like this doing on in my case. I would rather describe this Sound as “tonal limp” but the limp is very minor and in a very beneficial in my view direction. It would remain a person who is perfectly fluent in a given language but has a very-very minor inflection of foreign enunciation, so minor that you can’t tell if it is a foreign accent of just the person natural way of speaking. In some cased it is VERY attractive, particularly if it is coming from women. For instance I turn absolutely horny when I hear some women with relatively low “contralto” voice have some residual North London accent – I can herd then how hours regardless what they say.  It does not distract me attention from the message but it embellish the messages with added value of esthetic pleasure of unconditioned reflex to secondary stimulus.

 Axel wrote:
We have had this effect by using 1st order crossover with absolute minimal insertion loss, so you would now listing to uncorrected drivers in 'full beauty' of their idiosyncratic artefacts.

Oh, I absolutely disagree with it. First of all the “minimal insertion loss” is absolutely not on the picture, second it described ONLY the fact the bad drivers were used in your given application.

 Axel wrote:
  It can be initially exiting to drive with no 'breaks', but the longer you listen the more you will know that something is not 'right'.

I think that the condition that “something is not right” is not an absolute term but it has stratification. The “strategic detuning” is used very widely in music, look at the stretched octaves in piano or at the ability of some great string players to open note with very-very slight of-tune feeling. I do not defend that I will not change my view about the effect on future but I think that with a proper level of setting it works very well. I have it running for 2 days now and I love “it” a lot. Of cause it very difficult to describe “over internet” what “it” is and what degree of “it”. However, among the people who know me there is knowledge that whoever I run my mouth about I can demonstrate. So if you found yourself in Boston I will demonstrate the upper channels playing “in tune” and when is “something is not right”. I give a very high possibility that you would find that when “something is not right” then it was more interesting, particularly if that “not right” is rendered properly. But, again, I do not try to convince anybody in anything…

 Axel wrote:
  It is a trade off, total 'openness', hearing EVERYTHING --- and a lot of this 'everything' is not part of the recorded 'intention' i.e. driver artefacts and it will impart this on ALL that you are listening to.
Like putting salt even into you tea or coffee (some like it though).

There is absolutely no conflict between 'openness', ability to hear everything and what I am talking about.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 11596
Reply to: 11589
OK, a canon without rifling maybe?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am of course guessing, as to how you got the sound the way you describe it. This "off-set" might be pleasantly less then what I had in mind. It initially reminded me of an effect by having no impedance correction (Zobel) in a midrange driver, and or having forgone maybe a 'notch-filter' both of which would put some sort of 'break' on 'openness' --- but it's usually in disfavour of some other issue i.e. much reduced frequency linearity. Depending on the room (~ 50%) and rest the driver plus amplification it might work, as it creates e.g. an effect as if the system has been placed into a more (beneficially) reverberant room acoustic, all else being the same.

I do know, that this type of 'change in tone' is more likely than not, practically un-measurable --- yet VERY clearly discernable by listening. In fact you may actually corrected something that 'asked' for correcting and your search made you find the 'fix'.

One such example I had more recently, was the change from a single 22uF electrolytic cap 'Rough' to a: 15uF 'Rough' + 6.8uF 'Smooth' in the woofer Zobel circuit. I am absolutely certain that it will be impossible to see any meaningful change in measurements, but it made THE difference in tone by filling in the upper bass information.
Such a 'fix' can change the complete presentation to sound absolutely more right (by 'a priori'). One can now e.g. much easier discern (depending on software/recording) the difference of 'normal' or 'inverted' polarity. Whereby the one setting 'feels' clearly more right in relation to the other.

In my experience now, the first thing would be measurements/linearity, but following this by a mix of 'trial and error tone alchemy' to eventually get the tone/presentation to be right, by involving components, room and placement.
Enjoy the fix,
Axel
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 11630
Reply to: 11596
About the tonal hoarseness.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Axel wrote:
In my experience now, the first thing would be measurements/linearity, but following this by a mix of 'trial and error tone alchemy' to eventually get the tone/presentation to be right, by involving components, room and placement.
Axel, you have absolutely no idea what far you off in what you say about it. It has absolutely nothing to do with linearity and I feel that anything hardly might be measurable at this point. It is more like cooking a soup and putting a in a very delicate amount of Bay Laurel leaf. The effect is very insignificant but it I there and it is very well understood if it is what you are looking and willing to appreciate. From my side I just absolutely adore the effect and I would say that it is what I was dreaming and was searching for years and years.

It is very difficult to describe if you do not know what it is. It more feels like a very subtle touch of tonal hoarseness mixed with a strange sense of throaty most fogginess, strange but very delicate and very alluring. I have a local guy visited me list night and after the very first peace I played to him I asked him if he felt anything that he is not accustomed. He said that it sound “funky”.  I do not like the description of funkiness but I demonstrated to him that I can easily moderate that the “funkiness”. As soon I reduced the funkiness then he imidetaly asked to bring it back as it just feels much more interesting.

Anyhow, I do not need to refer to what others say I know what I say. What I say that this Critical Audio Tune or more accurately to say Off-Tune is VERY interesting method and it produces remarkable result. I can’t refer to you to the related things and I never heard anything similar in audio. All that I would say that the last night I played my reference  “absolute-tone-calibration record” for my visitor and I realized that it was well beyond of where I was able to take it before. 

For now my bogusly-named “Critical Audio Tune” method stays with me.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009

Post #: 6
Post ID: 11631
Reply to: 11630
“Critical Audio Tune” bay-leave in the soup...
fiogf49gjkf0d
yes, very well put. I have enough 'intuition' to have understood, unless you wish this to be THE one and only...

As to the 'linearity first', I was talking about the first generally accepted step in cross-over tuning and measuring. I know this if far past by now with your set-up --- BUT I have seen some folks wilfully ignoring it, going straight to the "Laurel leave" fine tasting, whilst the basic soup isn't right to start with. (As having had chef's training I actually happen to know what we are talking about)

If your initial 'soup' ingredients are not right, you can NOT get it right by 'fein abschmecken'*). I hope this makes some sense.

I still would like to know what you did for this 'fine tasting'*) Laurel leave effect of yours. You could have stuck some 'stickers' onto your driver's membrane, or done God knows what. If it's supposed to be a secret, well then so be it.

Though, it's always good to hear if something worked real well in some given, specific set-up as e.g. the cap changes that I mentioned.

Enjoy the music,
Axel 
Page 1 of 1 (6 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  About the Audio Neutrality...  Taking neutral when/where one can get it...  Playback Listening  Forum     12  76025  03-31-2007
  »  New  About the Playbacks’ Thinkability...  The right stuff...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  28474  01-30-2009
  »  New  A playback and wrong notes...  Why is it not common practice?...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  38616  03-12-2007
  »  New  Single-stage Melquiades vs. DHT amps..  A hallucination?...  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     397  2591028  11-22-2008
  »  New  A CD off tune? The Big CD Conspiracy theory?..  Low cost re-issues...  Didital Things  Forum     9  60146  08-25-2009
  »  New  Rejection of non-natural sounds...  Agree with Romy...  Playback Listening  Forum     3  17070  03-15-2011
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