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06-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 1
Post ID: 10744
Reply to: 10744
Impressions from High End 2009 GERMANY
fiogf49gjkf0d

same procedure as every year... 

When we did a visit at Munich we are no negative audiophiles, we are curious and just wanted to know what is going on. 

Based on recession 30% less Exhibitors were there, from about 360 in 2008 now around 230, the big rooms are extremely expensive (4 days around 33000 Euros),

even the Wilson/Spectral, Pass Importers were not there (at that Show in general). 

A lot of those who had these rooms in the years before didn‘t book it again, they went down at Basement for a regular Stand, no demo etc.... (just static for shaking hands)  

What we saw and it amazed us, is the huge increase in pricing, but linked with average design from parts, layout or sonic demonstration, but all with high gloss color or expensive „look“. 

Speakers between 50k-100+ Euros or more, much more than ever... 

Turntables most more than 6k, around 30 units between 10 and 30k Euros, around 12 units between 30k and 50.000 Euros, but no suspension, no vacuum, no material mix for resonance control, cheap bearings, wood Arm boards (glossy painted to look expensive)...... 

And this goes on and on, the Emperors new clothes...   

Some of us are in higher positions in the Production Industry; they know pretty well what is expensive from parts, chassis or making with the CNC Machines 

They all shook their heads...cheap, cheaper, cheapest

With some minor exceptions very low level and the Mark Ups for Dealers increased to push them for their products. 

Latest super idea: Multiple motors for Turntable (when 1 is not good enough, 3 will do the job....probably not...3x average is still average...)

But it looks important...and of course..."not for everyone"

One of us is a manager in the car industry, he said, in real life this is "betraying people"... and he is everything but sensitive Smile   

Well, all is a kind of view, but based on what we saw and heard High End is from now the complete BFZ (Brain Free Zone) for us.... cables, Plugs, Power conditioners....endless!!!!!! 

High End is not enough, HighER End? Last End?

Cartridges for 15K, 18K, 20k 

 Endless Phonostages and of course, they are all great (sic!)
 But nothing new from Ideas to push the curtain...to raise a performance... 

Some write, that it cannot sound good in such rooms, I think, that is totally wrong. 

Most is crap and sound like crap in every area, at home or there. And journalists will support this nonsense, because they don’t know it better and are not interested in that, they get their money from ads not from customers….

 The analog revival came back, because the mark ups are so huge in this area , the world was not waiting for it. Digital is PC based and my buddy is such a specialist, really 

nightmares he got, Parts below 700 Euros, Price for consumer 18000 Euros ....high end data storing, what a joke...music Servers …Soloos…

A good designed component will always show its qualities, maybe not to 100% but enough that you can easily hear it. 

Some of the better performances was 

Nagra 4x Valve amps+Verity Audio Parsifal + Brinkmann Turntable (or Kuzma, forgot it)

And  

Ascendo Speakers with Behold Electronics, Digital source

Based on high prices for the exhibition all the small manufacturers are gone, none of them there, they can‘t afford it. 

There was a parallel exhibition in a Hotel 6 mls away, at The Flemings, there were a few Manufacturers who didn‘t want to spend that much money at the regular High End Show 

(Avantgarde, Simon Yorke, Lyra, Consensus speakers etc....) but no comparison to the former Kempinsky at Frankfurt years ago. 

There are rumors, that lots of Manufactures want to go back to Frankfurt...the rates are too high (sales obviously not)

Anyway, it was a great time, a lot of units were offered to us with very low pricings, cash counted...

Well, the Winner is


no doubt: BASKIN ROBBINS

model "Rum Raisin" mK "give-me-two"


And here is a nice link from a German Photographer 


High End 2009 Germany






Kind Regards
Stitch
06-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-16-2007

Post #: 2
Post ID: 10745
Reply to: 10744
Munich 2009
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sounds as though you had a wonderful time. The Brinkmann room alternated between three tables, their 'La grange ' direct drive 'Oasis' and a balace with a 'Thales' tonearm, the Verity's use a ribbon tweeter Raal? Which in that undamped room was just too too strident, the majority of rooms continue to pay too little regard to room acoustics imho. A really large room like the TAD for example is Euros 20k, still extremely expensive.
06-10-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 10746
Reply to: 10744
Germany: a few interesting points.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Stitch wrote:
What we saw and it amazed us, is the huge increase in pricing…

The Hi-Fi is boutique products and it is customary to sell it for boutique prices. I am sure the economy also “helps”.

 Stitch wrote:
Turntables most more than 6k, around 30 units between 10 and 30k Euros, around 12 units between 30k and 50.000 Euros, but no suspension, no vacuum, no material mix for resonance control, cheap bearings, wood Arm boards (glossy painted to look expensive)......

.. and a turntable itself become a boutique item.  From a different perspective if all of those “funny” turntables have price tag of 10 and 30k Euros then how much shell cost the EMT927 of Micro 8000? 100K, 150K?

 Stitch wrote:
Latest super idea: Multiple motors for Turntable (when 1 is not good enough, 3 will do the job....probably not...3x average is still average...)

I am familiar with the argument for multiple motors. The AN’s Peter Qvortrup once argue this subject with me - I do not buy it. It is not difficult to justify the 3 motors in term of logic but it is as easier to bring contra-arguments. Interesting the while those discussion are going on no one talks about Sound of those solutions. I personally feel that multi-motor is celebration of opportunities over common sense.

 Stitch wrote:
But nothing new from Ideas to push the curtain...to raise a performance...

Yes, this is the key. Still it sometimes happens.

 Stitch wrote:
Some write, that it cannot sound good in such rooms, I think, that is totally wrong.

This is very interesting point. I also feel that it totally wrong but good sound is not a commodity of audio industry. The audio industry is a PROMISE of better sound and this does not require any prove.  To delivery of the prove is a way defet the purpose to sell a promise…

 Stitch wrote:
Most is crap and sound like crap in every area, at home or there. And journalists will support this nonsense, because they don’t know it better and are not interested in that, they get their money from ads not from customers….

You are saying that in Germany you guys have the US-type (or vice-versa) hi-fi circulation pattern: the manufactures deploy products to audio media for further propelling and distribution?

 Stitch wrote:
There was a parallel exhibition in a Hotel 6 mls away, at The Flemings, there were a few Manufacturers who didn‘t want to spend that much money at the regular High End Show

I was told that you guys have some local people in Berlin who rent schools for weekend and build in there the “demo rooms”. Do they have interesting result?

One more, We generally recognize the sound or German orchestras as different then sound of US orchestras. I wonder if THIS is somehow get transparency in audio?

Rgs, The Cat

PS: Stitch and whoever. If you use MS Word or any other tools to write posts then those tools have hidden stype formatting that become active when you paste you text into native HTML editors. When you paste your Word’s text into the message box of my site then use the “Clean MS World HTML” bottom. (On the right side of text box control menu). This will kill the nasty MS World formatting.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 10750
Reply to: 10746
DIY community
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:

You are saying that in Germany you guys have the US-type (or vice-versa) hi-fi circulation pattern...


Well, there are some differences, but in general there are 2 groups

-Those who have absolutely no idea and deny it (90%)

-Those who hate their job (10%) but can hide it very successfully


 Romy the Cat wrote:
 I was told that you guys have some local people in Berlin who rent schools for weekend and build in there the “demo rooms”. Do they have interesting result?


There are some DIY Groups who organize some meetings. There are a few groups and more or less linked together. 

Very strong in Internet communication and supporting themselves against critical opinions.



Some are clever (from what I know) but these few don‘t do much via Internet, they have a real job and do it as a Hobby. The other 98% can‘t afford anything and spend the day to tell all others how clever they are and how stupid the other ones are, who spend money on commercial (of course inferior) products.

(The typical: I have less money than you but I hear better....)

The sonic results are varying, too. Mildly said. And I have never seen DIY Products with Certifications, Data sheets etc.

I think, that is a different chapter, I know, there are some real outstanding DIY Systems out there, but none of these owners is in one of the groups. They have their own world and are not really interested in promoting.





Kind Regards
Stitch
06-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,301
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 10807
Reply to: 10750
The Berlin School
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here are the pictures of the meeting on the Berlin School the we were taking about.

http://www.thomas-schick.com/school.htm

From what I see it was incredibly not interesting audio event, the dummy DIYer showed off to each other the soldering techniques…. In addition I saw in the picture the face of that Pennsylvania white trash – the Oswald Mills guy. If he was there then the only thing that was missing in that Berlin School was a large bomb to slaughter each single Moron who is in acquaintance with that Pennsylvania dirt. If they did not exterminate that asshole then there they well-deserve to be annihilate.  To me the presence of the Oswald dirt at that meeting is a clear indication of what kind audio was there and what level of relation was domain in that School.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-19-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 6
Post ID: 10844
Reply to: 10807
Who is a real Audiophile?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Audiophile communication....


Auric:

 "I had a bad day. My Wife.......


Interrupted at once from all:

"Oh NO!....WHAT?....Did she discover the Cable Price List?...Diamond Cantilever is not a ring...."


Auric:

"....told me yesterday, I have to make a decision. The new (5.th) Turntable has to leave the house or she will. I have 24h (sic!).

 What should I do?''


All

"What Turntable?"


Auric:

"The Mockport MK 33 ⅓, only 5 ever built, Parry Hearson had 2, both destroyed in the fire at Ski Kliff, one is missed, one owns a 

Russian Billionaire who was deported to Siberia and he took it with him and then the one I got..."


All

"Well, tough choice...18 years married.....BUT... a Mockport MK33 ⅓....be a Man"


Auric

"Dear friends....(Pause, a tear dropped onto the desk and exploded in the endless black background...we heard it thru our cryo'd High Definition Phones, 

he wiped it away)..thank you so much for your support...she left YESTERDAY. 


Btw. did you hear from the new cable with Stones from the Moon in it?....Yeah, from Tim Nuff-Said, NSA got him, but he is out from jail now and he 

didn't tell them where they are....now he's making cables with it...."


All

"Yeah, must be out of this world sound...the stones are in the signal Path...we've heard the matching needs 4 months and he never leaves home.....my sister's 

brother lives in that town, and his girlfriend knows the Dad from the Pizzaman who delivers him....always dark rooms, he concentrates only to sound, but 

no one knows the exact pricing...he builds a moon cartridge too, but it's a rumour...


Auric

"I want 3 pairs, please ask the Pizzaman, can I order it with diamond coating......did Neil Armstrong touch these stones?...."





Kind Regards
Stitch
06-19-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 32
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 7
Post ID: 10851
Reply to: 10844
Audiophilitis
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stitch: That was all too close to the truth.

Why do these people spend thousands of $$$ on huge turntables and dedicated CD transports while at the same time trying to force meaningful sound out of a single Fostex or Lowther or other ricepaper driver that was sneezed upon by a very very old japanese man and now plays Diana Krawl in supposedly wonderful psychedelic technocolor, and is now a shoe-in for the 6moons circlejerk award? It is mindboggeling.

In this context everything these people say soundwise about electronics upstream from their single driver backloaded fartmachine must be disregarded.

Best
Kris
Page 1 of 1 (7 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The CES 2005..  Follow-up: New horn guy in town....  Audio Discussions  Forum     16  99590  01-10-2005
  »  New  My first audio show. Hmm....  Well since we've covered than in offsite .......  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  15008  04-16-2007
  »  New  My trip to the Stereophile’s HE 2004 Show ..  Re: My trip to the Stereophile’s HE 2004 Show...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  24422  05-27-2004
  »  New  Festival “Son & Image” in Montreal..  Well......  Audio Discussions  Forum     17  69567  03-16-2008
  »  New  CES – constant but fortunately final pain...  CES and the "BEST digital on the planet"....  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  18917  12-06-2005
  »  New  CES 2006..  CES: you screwed up big time......  Audio Discussions  Forum     7  51363  01-09-2006
  »  New  European Triode Festival 2009 – good, bad and ugly...  Schröder, Walker and a weekend with Bernie...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  16115  12-14-2009
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