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  »  New  A “pocket version” of Bruckner...  Bamberg recording...  Musical Discussions  Forum     6  33168  11-30-2017
06-20-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1
Post ID: 23266
Reply to: 23266
Trash your “full-rage”, single-driver acoustic systems.
The full-rage single-driver acoustic systems is probably the most hated playback topology by me. It is irrelevant if you use $200 Fostex or you use a family reserved edition of AER driver for $64.000. The result you have the same: a horrible dynamic compression, avalanche -like worsening with any single octave down and anything lower then lower-MF sound like a belching from alligator mouth. 

Years back, when I still had a mild residual interest to mentally disturbed schizophrenic individuals who fancy themselves as audio-hobbies and allowed them to visit me, waste my time with them and educated them about audio. I was played to them some real music and one listening session was enough for them stop to waste time and practice the full-rage vision of audio they were perusing. 

A week ago one “individual” who reportedly regularly read my site contacted me with a whole arrays of questions about my dislike of full-rage acoustic systems. I send his to fuck himself as I do with most of audio people who contact me directly about audio but something in his consequential response was from integrity and humor, the qualities that very seldom demonstrated by a typical audio people. So, I promised to him to response to him once via my site, so this post is a public response to you, Mark 

Mark, register at any good Japanese music retailer site and buy a DVD of Gunter Wand performs along with his NDR orchestra, the Bruckner  #4. The version you need comes with Beethoven’s Leonore overture and the Bruckner was recorded in 1990, during the Schleswig-Holstien Music Festival in North Germany. Gunter Wand unleashed the stunning force of the North German Broadcasting orchestra in Lubeck cathedral, the place of acoustic hajj, with super long reverberation time, reportedly 11 seconds. The music is great to listen next 10 years 5 time a day, the interpretation is one of the greatest for this work and now we need to identify Sound. Find large multi-channel (I do not mean 5ch surround but rather at least 5 drivers/channels per side), truly full-range, stereo installation and take you DVD there. Take 2 of Padron 50 Years anniversary cigars to the listening room. Set the playback to deliver 120dB at fff (this is critical) and play the music.  Then come home listen a few bars of your “full-rage”, single-driver acoustic system. Then take an axe, chop your speakers on small pieces, pile the pieces into 42 gallon contraction bag, put the bad at the curve of your driveway and process your life with more sensible hobbies, the philately or scuba diving is highly advisable. 

A bad version of the first movement:



Mark, please do not comment on my post.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-27-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Iraschwips
Posts 9
Joined on 10-05-2017
Post #: 2
Post ID: 25203
Reply to: 23266
Did they finally figure out how to do full-rage?
Poor Mark. I hope he didn't pull his back out cutting all that wood with just an axe. I wish someone recommended a wood chipper. It's going to be hard to take up scuba diving in such condition.
While it's certainly going to be dynamically restricted, is it possible that the poles figured out how to do a single-driver speaker with competent sound at a middle tier hedge fund manager's salary? 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/cubeaudio2/
12-29-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 3
Post ID: 25204
Reply to: 23266
Range for range
Surely questions of optimal topology need cognizance of the material to be played. If someone listens only to lieder, say, two drivers are sufficient. It is only those of us trying to reconstruct a Wagnerian orchestra that need multichannel breadth.
12-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 4
Post ID: 25205
Reply to: 25203
Even the Poles can’t rewrite physics
Considering that Srajan is the ultimate audio reviewer, it should be clear to all that there is no opinion worth considering in that article.
Where is the cone area to recreate anything except a fart? How is any type of low distortion HF possible with all of that moving mass? Why does anyone considering high quality playback turn off their ears? Why do they want to believe that distortion=high fidelity? Must be deaf... Just like Srajan.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
12-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 5
Post ID: 25206
Reply to: 25205
Morbid Curiosity
Sure, forget the sales pitch, but some of similar might be good for fairly wide range MF. However, based on the sound sample, it's hard to say much about this one, apart from what looks like an extra load of multiple whizzers at/near the voice coil/former.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9EXd3hCYEs

Paul S
12-30-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 6
Post ID: 25207
Reply to: 25206
Was there....
I like this Polish guy in your tube interview. I hate his speakers of cause. The best this is this YouTube interview is the Peter Breuninger’s proposal “certificate of accomplishments” that the speaker maker was granted. That was huge recognition and I am sure the speaker maker will be keeping the certificate for next 10 years under his pillow. 

I do not know anything about the speakers, neither the sound they produced in the video made me inspired to learn about them more. One thing I would like to note. The speaker maker mentioned with pride that they have a prototype of a full range driver with neodymium 2.4T magnet. Sorry to defecate upon the speaker maker price but those drivers are ultimate horror in the realm of full range drivers. 
   
If you have a string instrument   and take out of consideration the resonating chamber then the pitch will be a primary a property of force the string tightness, material to some degree and the string thickness, among a few other things. Now pretend you tight all strings at maximum force, the 2.4T is max saturated magnetic field under normal circumstance. So, how the hell a string at maximum force can produce proper harmonics at 12Khz and 300Hz, it is absolutely impossible, unless you have a very wrong expectations hos sound should sound, winch is very much the case with most of audio people.
I need to admit the some (very much not all of them) full range drivers so make VERY good MF drivers. The problem is that when the system organizers begin to stress them to go “one more octave down” they shot themselves in a food and bury the whole idea. Do you like your full range drivers? Great, cross your 8 inchers at ~500-800Hz and fortify from bottom by other channels. Want to use the full range drivers as true full range, loading then to some kind of horn or port? Great again. Do it and enjoy it but do not declare your “design” as the best invention since Greek fire. Everyone heard your design.  
 
I pretty much discard each and single attempt to use the full range drivers. When people use the “full range drivers” as MF or even as HF driver only I have no problem with it. Also, I need to mention that a very small monitor made with a full range driver that I heard once was the most interesting sound the I even hear in audio. It was not the most interesting sound overall but there was one single aspect (transients) of it that was in my estimation unmatched by anything that I ever heard. It was at a show (surprised, surprise) and it was the only one time in my life when I was not able to distinct recording from life sound. I was literally was staying for very long time in a corridor next to the room and did not believe that the sound I hear was a recording. It was a simple recording of cause. The irony is that after that show I spoke with a few friends of my who had the same experience, it never made audio press however….
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 7
Post ID: 25208
Reply to: 25207
Construction Details (The Tesla Chronicles)
I guess it's possible that someone somewhere could get this driver to sing through part of its range. And I admit that it is infuriating to me that people with the speaker construction technology typically build "well-made", bad-sounding drivers based on wrong premises and tin ears, and it appears to me that this has many of the earmarks of another such instance of heaped up, generic mistakes.  Among the "exotic" "FR" driver features, the "strong magnet" is one favorite, also the "phenolic spyder", the "narrow gap", the "leather surround", "wooden cones", etc., etc. And the truth is, while any part of it might be OK in one situation or another, no one lives long enough to work through all the variables and combinations of variables, let alone make a thorough catalog of how each relates to the others with respect to the sound they make, and how these in turn affect the Music the drivers make. Rather, at some point a design is decided upon, and they move forward with a version of it that they can produce in sufficient quantities at an affordable price, at an acceptable location, on a reasonable schedule. Who knows for sure what this one's worth in a different context, but my own experience with this stuff suggests that a number of their "key features" are generic mistakes, rather they consistently proved detrimental to Sound during my own experiments. Yes, I'm jealous of their capabilities; but I do not covet their driver.

As for their approach, like Jackson Browne once said: "Though the future's there for anyone to change, still, you know, it seems it would be easier sometimes to change the past."


Paul S
12-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 8
Post ID: 25209
Reply to: 25206
Gee Whizz(er)
 Paul S wrote:
Sure, forget the sales pitch, but some of similar might be good for fairly wide range MF. However, based on the sound sample, it's hard to say much about this one, apart from what looks like an extra load of multiple whizzers at/near the voice coil/former.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9EXd3hCYEs

Paul S

Paul, is there a higher distortion way to create HF than with whizzer cones? Sure, it is possible to take a HF deficient construction and add a lightweight resonant structure that "flaps" in the wind. Maybe a type of bass reflex activity for HF?
In Germany we do not say "full range", rather "wide band" (Breitbänder). This better describes what we get. I recently heard some "wide band" 8" Fostex in an Oris 150Hz front loaded horn. Even simple baroque music with only a voice and lute had this sound of "tearing paper" attached to just about everything. It became a weapon of mass destruction when the shop owner wanted to prove how efficient the system was. I told him that rape is punishable by law. He did not understand.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
12-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 9
Post ID: 25210
Reply to: 25209
How It's Done
Yes, Robin, while the whizzer can do higher frequencies, it comes at the cost of ragged response in the mid-range for the typical "full range" driver, and it also simply adds mass that precludes better HF performance that might have been gotten with better voice coil, former, and related construction details.  Since you live in Germany and practice Music and hi-fi there, you are probably aware that some of their old drivers can be re-purposed to good effect. In fact, I am amazed (and amused, and frustrated) to see the particular contortions people go through to "re-create" and/or implement some the worst aspects of some of the best Breitband drivers ever made.  And I'm sure you've noticed, not all of them had whizzers (although whizzers can be used for HF only...).  Like Mick Jagger once said, "It's the singer, not the song."


Best regards,
Paul S
12-31-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Iraschwips
Posts 9
Joined on 10-05-2017
Post #: 10
Post ID: 25211
Reply to: 25207
Not completely ready to give up on the idea
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Also, I need to mention that a very small monitor made with a full range driver that I heard once was the most interesting sound the I even hear in audio. It was not the most interesting sound overall but there was one single aspect (transients) of it that was in my estimation unmatched by anything that I ever heard. It was at a show (surprised, surprise) and it was the only one time in my life when I was not able to distinct recording from life sound. I was literally was staying for very long time in a corridor next to the room and did not believe that the sound I hear was a recording. It was a simple recording of cause. The irony is that after that show I spoke with a few friends of my who had the same experience, it never made audio press however….

I would be interested to know to what you would attribute this critical dampening of the system, if you had to wager a guess?
I imagine this excellent transient response was limited to a narrow frequency band that was emphasized by the specific recording?

Around 15 years ago I only had a headphone amp and a single pair of headphones. I wanted to try my hands at building a speaker. So I put together a single driver speaker following precisely a design I found online. I think the whole thing cost me under $200. They did sound fundamentally different than any speakers I had heard at the time when listening to some very simple acoustic music, but completely fell apart on large symphonic music. At this they sounded no better than any home theater system from best buy. There were other issues too, they had a HF glare, constricted dynamics, thin tone, and an overall veiled sound. Some of these problems were contributed to by the associated electronics, but I believe most of the obvious faults were endemic to the speaker. I subsequently heard single driver systems which were simply unlistenable, even within a narrow range of chamber and jazz recordings. 

The best single driver system I heard was superb at what I would describe as "musical flow". A very intelligible rhythm and musical phrasing. I distinctly remember listening to Stern/Rose/Istomin playing Schubert and being completely drawn in, hanging on every note and experiencing each idea as perfectly following the prior. I've had other instances where listening to music on a "good" system informed me of the genius of a particular performance which I had previously and perhaps subsequently been ignorant to. I went on to youtube shortly after this experience and listened again to the performance and the magic was for whatever reason just not perceptible to me.         

I listened to other music through these single driver speakers which I would also describe as having excellent musical flow, not just this one performance. At the time I attributed the cartridge that was used as the key ingredient to the sound, and the speakers as a weak point which was competent enough not to muck up what was good about the system. However, maybe the speakers while imposing limitations, were part of what was right about the sound.

I don't have enough technical knowledge to follow all of what has been said in this thread but within my primitive understanding I'm not so sure I'm willing to completely give up on the idea of single driver systems having some unique properties which are worthwhile to study and perhaps learn from.             
01-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 11
Post ID: 25214
Reply to: 25211
Everything else is less relevant.
 Iraschwips wrote:
I imagine this excellent transient response was limited to a narrow frequency band that was emphasized by the specific recording?

Yes, it is was very accurate guess: it was the “narrow frequency” and it WAS to a degree emphasized by the specific recording. I was not able to play anything as the person who run the show room was not my favorite guy in audio, in fact I do not like him at all. Though I need to admit the he did not play a “girl with banjo” only but he played a variety of “light audio”
 Iraschwips wrote:
They did sound fundamentally different than any speakers I had heard at the time when listening to some very simple acoustic music, but completely fell apart on large symphonic music.

I had the same experience many times with others and with my own audio endeavors’ never had this happens to multi-channel system systems however. I do don’t know the reason and Doppler distortion would be too primitive reasoning to argue. Still, it looks like, purely empirically that multi-channel, not to mention the multi-amp systems are immune to this problems.  
 Iraschwips wrote:
I'm not so sure I'm willing to completely give up on the idea of single driver systems having some unique properties which are worthwhile to study and perhaps learn from. 

And this is perfectly fine. My strong opposition to single driver is a guidance for ME ONLY do not use single drivers for my own playback. It is not a public instruction or an attempt to legislate for others. Audio is a very personal matter. It is like the style of underwear you wear. You find what works to satisfy you current set of expectations and demands and put you best efforts to render it. Everything else is less relevant.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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