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  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  895197  11-19-2007
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05-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 23221
Reply to: 23221
The Kato-san's Goto system
It is not secret that Stefano Bertoncello loves to appreciate Goto and is very prolific Goto devotee. Some people love to be groupies of some cars manufactures, or football teams or political parties.  I never associated with any “group identity” and even the tuition for me to be align with any groups make my independent spirit to hurt. Stefano published at his blog an article about a beloved by him Japanese Goto system that I find worth to observe:
 
http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2017/05/1.html
 
I am perfectly OK with Stefano love what he loves and his admiration of the installation is not the subject of my criticism. Would Stefano be a “professional reviewer” then I would use harsh language to describe his comment but as a private person writing at his own blog he is perfectly fine to express whatever he wish a I personally do grad that he liked the sound from the playback. 
 
However, as I person who is trying to advocate some kind of hors design maturity I feel that I need to make some comments. You, see the a maturity is an opposition to immaturity and an immaturity, according to Immanuel Kant’s “What is Enlightenment”, is a refusal to use reasoning. So, I would like to observe some reasoning in the Mr. Kato Goto installation. 
 
Again, I have advocated this subject many times: reasoning needs to be proportional to spent efforts. If one is listening a table radio of a single 2-way stereo-box then it indicates a non-pretensions approach and there is absolutely no reason to demand anything from the owner of the playback. If a person however spent years of own life and many hundreds thousand dollars to build an elaborate public installation then it is a very different matter. No one want to be judgmental about the personal motives but we are perfectly might to learn about objectives, means, results and  the reasoning of what was accomplished. So, what Mr. Kato expressed in his Goto installation? 
 
I do not see anything but the unfortunately-common for the Goto owners as groupies immaturity.  
 
Mr. Kato stack up a whole bunch of horn in big random pile, screw a accidental Goto drivers that much by frequency range, connected everything with branded crossover and he feel that it is some kind of presumption of Goto reasoning. Let to leave the time alignment problem outside of the attention, there is nothing to talk about it. I am sure Stefano would not drive his car with valves not synchronized by timing belt or at least would not claim that it was the best ride of his life :-), the most interesting was the diagram how the system is organized.    
 
The Mr. Kato multiple sources run into Goto EPH-2002 preamp. Then it goes into active crossover EPH-4002. This is ACTIVE devise that shall have two buffers for input and for output. The input has to be buffered as the filter shall ride decupled from preamp output and the output shall be buffered as the crossover need to see a stable impedance and to drive multiple amps and cables. The insult the injuries is that EPH-4002 has an ugly RC filtration. Again, all of it would be fine for $500   table radio, or for $50K Las Vegas high fir showroom or for $250K playback of another “industry reviewer” but for more of les self-respected individual who use high-end audio reasoning I would ask questions. 
 
1)      With your wonderful Goto drivers do you hear the ugly consequence of RC filtration?  
2)      Why do you need to use  superfluous and redundant  2 extra active stages in your crossover if you implement multisampling, have stable permanents load and the crossover might be very effectively be done no passive filtration against amplifier, particularly since you use a DC preamp and output impedance of your preamp is not a factor.  
3)      You use an additional 6kHz filter for upper channels at the EPH-3002’s input, Why now to put there second order phase-minimal filter in order do not pass the signal across the channel dividing buffers of the EPH-2002?  
4)      Where are high-pass filters that unload the bass from bass drivers? 
 
So, in my view, if to remove from the picture that fact that Kato-san uses expensive drivers and generally positively use multi-amplification (in his case he used are SS amplification and there is no need to be bothered with DSET concept), the rest of his audio decisions make him no different than a typical DIY-audio-centric Iowa hoodlum dumps in his garage a random PA horns and pitches it as a newer invention of Amsterdam Jew (Plagiarism from Marques).. 
 
Rgs, 
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 162
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #: 2
Post ID: 23222
Reply to: 23221
There is a video.
I saw some videos of that system some time ago.

One thing about GOTO, they ended the production of the SG146xxx driver, what probably was their most interesting driver...

Cheers!



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
05-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 23223
Reply to: 23222
About the Goto SG146XX…
Hm…m… I do not know how about that.  
Well, the SG146XX where the most interesting from one perspective and the most problematic from another perspective. Goto, never gave to SG146 an option to moderate resonance frequency and without it I feel it a great waste of the drivers. The fact that they did not have the provision to do mitigate Fs is indication to me that they have very little practical understanding how compression drivers are loaded. The fact the Goto own horn were very bad is just an additional evidence of it.  
 
The idea to have ultra-low mass and well damped diaphragm with super powerful magnet is not bad idea and a few Japanese companies did ii: Condo. ALE, GOTO, Onken, YL. It is arguably beneficial for higher frequencies but I feel that it is a bit dubious for LF. If you play with electromagnet driver then you might learn that whatever combination of current, coil turns, voltage you have you will not be able to get proper harmonics at lower end if you have overly stiff diaphragm, In my experiment I always was driving my electromagnets down 1,4T-1,6T to get proper sound at lower MF as at 2.0T of higher I was getting  very impressive HF and too “firm” lower end. 
 
I was trying to advocate this point a few times and the last time was in the Murat’s thread, the Moscow guy who was trying to use SG146 with a quarter of 40Hz horn but he was kind of idiots and was impervious to anything that required an audio IQ high then the side of own shoe. Still, the experience of that Moscow dude (the thread is somewhere here) was wonderful illustration to my sentiment. I am not the person who would judge about Sound of playback based upon YouTube videos, they all horrible, including my own. Still, if you listen ANY of the YouTube videos where the bass compression drivers used (including the Kato-san's and the Russian guy) then you can very clearly hear the signature sound of the compression bass driver with over-controlled diaphragm. I feel that there IS a way to deal with it but no one does and it looks like no own hears it among the Goto users.
So, for sure that SG146XX is unique driver but so far I do not see the Goto users convert the drivers into unique sonic results.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 4
Post ID: 23224
Reply to: 23223
Why different rules??
Hi Romy 
That's an interesting point! Very interesting. Why mids and highs should have a super light membrane and strong magnet to follow the rule of precise movement, speed, resolution, etc....While in lows its better to run muddy with heavy soft mass and weak magnets?In general the same rule should apply. But in respect to the wavelength size should increase. Mass follows size so unpreventable higher, but ideally proportional to the size. 
I do agree on firmness. running my Khorn with a Fostex PA38, thats got a super light 15 inch paper straight cone, 80mm coil with short winding for only 1mm xmax, incredible 70 grams mass including all moving elements plus airload. It is firm and i consider the firm lean perception while same response as a sign of clean, faithful precision, missing the "boom". 
!!
Cheers Josh 
05-23-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 23225
Reply to: 23224
I do not think anybody needs it.
Josh, I do not have a definitive answer to this question with witch I feel comfortable. I need to say that I had a multiple experiments in multiple audio fields and I always felt that excessive or too limited magnetic force is not always complimentary and it should be a proper balance between magnetic force, suspension, moving mass, damping methods, driver loading mechanically and electrically. So, if you take under consideration and formulate an absolute perfect magnetic force per a given environment then you very soon discover that this “absolute perfection” is achievable only for a single point in frequency response. An octave upper or lower you are not in ultimate magnetic force vs environment ratio. Well, it is very similar to many other moments in audio. 
 
Answering the question you ask my speculation would be that here we have in place a phenomena of a moving mass projected to minimum currents.   To drive ultra-low mass HF diaphragm you need a few mV and the diaphragm exert pretty much with no mechanical inertia. To drive a bass driver with the same minimum voltage you face much larger excursion of diaphragm and consequentially you face much heavier voltage rollback from the diaphragm pulled back by suspension. So, we flood the bass driver with more power (same voltage more current) to flood a driver with amp loading. To a degree the effect goes away in you runs positive feedback in the amp and drive the amp with a negative impedance, then you can magnetize the driver as much or as little as you wish: the effect will me much less prevalent.  Well, to a degree you can mitigate the effect of overly-manganesed bass drivers by idling the driver loading (by the amp) but I personally did not make those experiments and for me it is pure hypothetical presumption. 
 
I think it should be difference between properly magnetized bass drivers and over magnetized bass driver but idled loaded. It should be similar to dropping VTF for .2g and changing at the same time VTA for a degree. But is it impossible to foresee how it will be in case of a given compression driver. Unfortunately I do not see any serious bass compression drivers users out there who would go for sensible bass compression drivers experiments. I do not particularly blame them as it is a hugely expensive and very time intensive labor of love that will hardly bring any gratification besides the admiration of a few obscure audio lunatics, like me.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 6
Post ID: 23226
Reply to: 23225
Size might be an issue
hi Romy! Good thought with the current on the damping...

I had another thought. High excusion might create lots of distortion in a compression chamber. No surprise.

But in my oppinion the sizes are often not in proportion. Lets calculate...
If the membrane radius doubles each octave we go lower, the excursion can remain small.
Respectively all other values should remain the same. Including perception of quality.
No one would run a 1 inch driver down to 500Hz but huge excursion... by driver i mean membrane, throat of course half then.


In the system i plan, i want to do it proportionally. And also follow some nice thoughts of the Vox Olympian. It reduces stress by running drivers with high crossover. It should look linear like:
10k XO 1 inch membrane
3k XO 2 inch
1k XO 4 inch

So far all JBL Alnico compression drivers. Now how to continue?
Well down to 300 i have to double again. 8 inch then. No compression drivers in that size. The closest imho would be the Lowther pm4a with its monster alnico. We have to develop our own Phaseplug to make it a compression chamber. I plan to use an 30 inch horn then.


Next step is down to 100 cycles. Doubling linear means a 15 inch driver. In Horn. Could be a Klipsch Corner. Only thing missing is a proper compression and Phaseplug which i have to build first.

Then the last octaves would require double. But as the horn wont fit into regular real estate, we loose 12dB or more. So 4 times again. Which means 8 times in total. Would result in 120 inch. Ok doesn't exist for good reasons.

So we can only use closed cabine with multiple drivers.
Taking 15 inch as an example would mean 8 times 15 inch per channel. Keeping same excursion.
Or 16 times 12 inch.
Or 32 timws 8 inch Big Smile

Of course running so many in parallel causes a massiv drop in resistance and still not the same efficiency, so we need more amps.
But as we grow linear, we keep excursion low. That means short coil. Lighter mass, stronger magnet (as we will use multiple engines).
I think that should work well.

Cheers
Josh
05-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 7
Post ID: 23227
Reply to: 23221
Music and pleasure, first...
Hi Roman and thanks for your interest in my journey and first-hand impressions... I'm back after about a three weeks long Japan (mostly audio related) trip.

I'm still digesting the several systems I listened to, so a bit overdosed and not really willingly going to share on my Blog whatever... the dry, yet enthusiastic post concerning Kato's system was something due...

I mean: when a system and a "room" play so beautifully and harmonically rich in texture and detail, impressive when low end is asked for and so enjoyable, well... that's something to me.

Sure I understand your criticisms, Roman... yet, while listening, everything technical is not considered, at least when pleasure and pros surpass cons - like when you're in the pleasant company of a lady you simply don't think about her kidney or lung functions or when driving a fine motorbike you simply don't think about the metal its clutch is made-of or viscosity of motor-oil...

That was the case... I listened to other expensive systems and I'm NOT impressed by amount of money spent, audio-wise.

Not anymore...

I felt the listening pleasure and involvement, naturality and overall beauty of sound of this system to highly surpass any other system I listened to... not ALE 7 ways in Italy or other Western Electric systems (16A, 15A, 13A) in Europe and Japan, or other Goto-based systems, my own included in Europe and Japan.

Talking about musical enjoyment and pleasure, thanking an audio system... so not considering the possible updates and improvements.

One shot experience and sincere appreciation on my part.

My personal opinion, as Roman correctly pointed out... with no hidden commercial reason but the sharing of my experience.








"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
05-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 110
Joined on 04-14-2017

Post #: 8
Post ID: 23228
Reply to: 23227
Hi and low
Hi Stephano

Nice to read. Agree. But reg. my concern to new Japanese way of woofing with 5cm compression drivers...
Did you try once a uncompressed drum-play in live level?

I mean judging woofers performance with a violin is somewhat difficult.

cheers
Josh
05-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 9
Post ID: 23229
Reply to: 23228
Drums & fifes
Hi Josh... of course... for evaluation and pleasure-reasons I had my own 24 bit/192 khz live recordings of Lou Harrison's music, performed by a percussion ensemble with harp and assorted cymbals and drums, any size and flute and female, soprano voice...recorded only few weeks ago with Sound Devices 722 and Neumann USM-69 in Blumlein pattern.

... thanking this source, played from a dedicated computer and DAC at several locations and systems, the evaluation was - sort-of - in semi-controlled - i.e. known - conditions...

Whatever, I enjoyed... but NOT all systems reacted the same way, of course... Goto or not;-)


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
05-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 23230
Reply to: 23227
Two things I need to note.
 twogoodears wrote:
That was the case... I listened to other expensive systems and I'm NOT impressed by amount of money spent, audio-wise. 

I did not accuse neither you in this nor your comments in this bias. However, a large amount of money spent is very frequently serves as obstacle in a development of audio thinking and in advancement of audio practice by the OWNERS of the expensive systems. I see it very frequently in brand-inherited groupies generally and in Goto users in particularly. It is a very frequently that a person buy some kind of expensive element, let say Kharma speakers for $200K, then the person by the virtue of investment into the expensive model has a presumption that by the utilization of his expensive loudspeaker he has some kind of assurance of “better sound. In realty there is nothing further from truth and I hope you know that “great sound” did not come from great components but from great efforts.
 twogoodears wrote:
I mean: when a system and a "room" play so beautifully and harmonically rich in texture and detail, impressive when low end is asked for and so enjoyable, well... that's something to me. 
Sure I understand your criticisms, Roman... yet, while listening, everything technical is not considered, at least when pleasure and pros surpass cons - like when you're in the pleasant company of a lady you simply don't think about her kidney or lung functions or when driving a fine motorbike you simply don't think about the metal its clutch is made-of or viscosity of motor-oil... 

Stefano, it is not a secret that we share different things with the world, you at your blog and me at mine. Your blog is a dairy about your exposure to different things and you do not look into the inner working neither of the things you observed nor into the insights of your own perception. This is perfectly legitimate area of interest and I have no problems with it, neither have I criticized you for doing it. However, my own site reflect the interests that I have and my interest have to do to a great degree with audio specifics, decisions sensibility, design reasoning, development methodologies, observing and analyzing playbacks expressive methods, recognizing playback construction patterns, identifying the correlation between playback expressivism  and listening perception. It is not that I am impermeable for “music and pleasure” but the pleasures is not what I chose to share at my site, the dedicated to “advanced audio and evolved music reproduction techniques”. I spent quite a number of years of very hard thinking and hard practicing some aspect of audio and I very much appreciate to see how my practical accomplishments and my understanding audio methods stand up against the audio practice by others audio practitioners. It is not a competition like many morons see it but rather a correlation and collaboration. Unfortunately many audio people do not know how to do it…  What I think you are missing in your example with the pleasant company of a lady is that you afraid that I care about “her kidney or lung functions”. In reality I care to learn what make me enthusiastic about her and if I enjoy her company so much then it might be a reason in her, in me or in a world that made her presence so enjoyable. I do not think that it is in any way or form degrade the quality of my feeling about the lady. Instead is helps me to avoid a company of the ladies with whom I would not have that warm and fuzzy feeling…
 
Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-24-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 11
Post ID: 23231
Reply to: 23230
Brilliant
... yes, Roman: it's not competition... agree on lung, kidney and dedication/effort, as I agree in different approach/behaviour and both are enthusiastic and emphatic... thanks for understanding my POW: my naïveté makes me exclaming "I like" or "I don't like".. I leave to others the task of finding their way or deepening.... that's - humbly said - my way... suggesting, sharing my diary.


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
Page 1 of 1 (11 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  895197  11-19-2007
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  128955  12-06-2009
  »  New  Why GOTO do not care about time-alignment...  Sarcasm isn't my cup of tea...  Audio News Forum     7  40361  09-22-2009
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  417177  08-12-2015
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