| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Musical Discussions » Too damn loud? (6 posts, 1 page)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 1 of 1 (6 items) Select Pages: 
09-30-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 219
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 1
Post ID: 21238
Reply to: 21238
Too damn loud?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Here ya go. I wonder if audio people have the same issues......

http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/faq_text/noiselevels.html

http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/text/teamplayer.html


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
09-30-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,407
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 21239
Reply to: 21238
I feel no sympathy.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I hope you understand that regular concert goers would not feel any sympathy to musicians who are getting deaf sitting in orchestras. We, the consumers of orchestral events, are very frequently undeserved by dynamics and volumes during live events. While apparently Feds are trying to rule something to OSHAnise musicians (wish is understandably ridicules) but my personal complaint is in very opposite side: we the consumers have not enough volumes and not enough dynamic range. 
 
For instance at BSO's Symphony Hall I would say that a good 85% of all near-located sits do compress sound very aggressively. If you go further from stage then you just do not get enough volumes and any deep fortissimos do not sound "impressive" enough. If we sit too close where orchestra can develop some auditable dynamic then the instruments and section are not mixed properly. So, he in Symphony Hall we effectively have couple of dozen sits where there is potential to get proper dynamic range. However, people compress sound. A fully filed Hall, particularly with a lot of women (they are acoustically fuzzier) and during cold time of year makes sound sluggish and dull. Much better result we get from K-M row distance and with Hall file at 40-50% of capacity.  That is VERY seldom happens.  I am not a huge fun of Symphony Hall. The industry people love to blab about it's phenomenal acoustics but they ether are ignorant or conditioned. The  Worchester's' Mechanic Hall is much shittier Hall but  order of magnetite better for orchestral sound then the Symphony Ha, at least for the person who is listener.   

So, I have when musicians are trying elicit sonic sympathy I would propose to feel sympathy toward to concert goers who actually do not get during the concerts the sound that they shall.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-30-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 290
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 21241
Reply to: 21238
This is the future
fiogf49gjkf0d
 I guess young people like Romy are going to be facing a quiet future - or you will get a visit from OSHA. The symphony orchestra hall will have QUIET signs posted everywhere and the orchestra will have a top screen that flashes the dynamic level they would be playing except for the OSHA regs. Enjoy your regulatory approved New Age music in uncompressed format though, as well as your favorites on lute. Enjoy but shhhh.
10-01-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,407
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 21242
Reply to: 21241
I do not think so.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Honestly, steverino, I do not think that the situation is as tragic as you believe it might be. For sure it always would be here and there some idiots-bureaucrats who would try to impose some ridicules rules including the above mentioned sound-level reduction of reparative hand motion prevention for string players. The really the those people always exist and even if they sometime do advice their stupid ideas but on a large scale everyone get that they pitch foolish and eventually their "noise" fades away. I am very much convince that no "social worker" would oblige conductors to truncate dynamics, the "social worker" for sure will be taking about it and define but those talks own existence. I might understand why rowuk is so horny about the subject. He is trumpet played and he feels that somebody harass the volume of his favorite instriment. That is a professional illness of most of trumpetists: they usually play more loud then I would like them to. OK, now I will be mercilessly beaten….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-01-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 219
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 5
Post ID: 21243
Reply to: 21242
I would score everything for trumpet if I could!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Honestly, steverino, I do not think that the situation is as tragic as you believe it might be. For sure it always would be here and there some idiots-bureaucrats who would try to impose some ridicules rules including the above mentioned sound-level reduction of reparative hand motion prevention for string players. The really the those people always exist and even if they sometime do advice their stupid ideas but on a large scale everyone get that they pitch foolish and eventually their "noise" fades away. I am very much convince that no "social worker" would oblige conductors to truncate dynamics, the "social worker" for sure will be taking about it and define but those talks own existence. I might understand why rowuk is so horny about the subject. He is trumpet played and he feels that somebody harass the volume of his favorite instriment. That is a professional illness of most of trumpetists: they usually play more loud then I would like them to. OK, now I will be mercilessly beaten….


No need for a beating, trumpets are built louder because there is a market for louder. Well actually, the market is for a "thicker" trumpet sound that unfortunately masks other instruments playing in the same frequency range. The complainers think that the problem is being too loud, when it is not being able to hear themselves!

When I compare my 1938 german rotary trumpet to my 2007 american built trumpet, I have two separate use cases that are only related by the name "trumpet". The rotary trumpet is not as loud, the timbre changes greatly when playing low to high and soft to loud. The rotary "breaks up" sooner adding a lot of overtones. The deep F trumpets of Bruckners time have even more change of color. The lower notes are more rich and resonant, the middle range up to G on top of the staff are very clear and articulate and the upper register is very direct and brilliant. The biggest difference are the amount of sum and difference tones when playing in the section. With the older trumpets there is MUCH more intermodulation. For the sake of "security" of playing, the instruments used are higher pitched and with much less ability to modulate the character of the sound.

It would be incorrect to label the "historic" instruments as better or worse, playing Gershwins American in Paris or Strawinskys Firebird on a rotary trumpet would be far from optimal. Mozart, Mahler, Bruckner with a modern piston trumpet causes a lot of issues with brass section sound.

Here is a very good example of the rotary sound similar to mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLKaFOUVP1E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myGtPMdnNME

Compare this to the same piece on a modern high pitched instrument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqSxgSez3pI


Granted the playing style between the two is not comparable. The former being fine aged wine and the latter very cheap beer (both are very well known artists with great reputations). They can serve as good examples about the sound development in the various registers however.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,407
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 21247
Reply to: 21243
A Charlie Schlueter syndrome?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I know, I know, rowuk. I was teasing you with your trumpetness, trust me it was playful. The reality is that I do not feel that it all about Strawinskys trumpet vs. Bruckner trumpet or about Antol Dorati's trumpets vs. Guntar Wand trumpets. With trumpets it is very seldom right. It is the players who seldom play at right volume. Then it is a conductor who not always set his trumpet at right volume. Then it is sound people who never record trumpets right with orders, not to mention that they decide to "ride" the trumpets based upon their own stupid audio views. And of cause it is the nature of trumpets profile beaming. From horn perspective trumpet is very directional devise and volume and to a large degree texture balance audients get very different depending where they sit. I was attending a very good performance of Mahler 6 with lead trumpetist did a phenomenal job but the guy felt truly uncomfortable with an incredible stupid set of microphones positioned right in front of him. So the guy was visually uncomfortable and sometime and was swinging his trumpets violently to avoid that microphone. Thansfuly I was not sitting on the axis of the trumpet otherwise it would be each time different volume and transient. Well it would work for Mahler of course :-)....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (6 items) Select Pages: 
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts