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08-24-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 21179
Reply to: 21179
Platine Verdier Magnum
fiogf49gjkf0d
Interesting.......

http://www.jcverdier.com/ADSL/Platine_Magnum.html


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-25-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #: 2
Post ID: 21180
Reply to: 21179
Floor
fiogf49gjkf0d
People forget that their floor, subfloor, & other associated structural pieces connected to & part of the listening room will have to EQUAL the standards of the Verdier.  Do NOT count on your contractor no matter what he promises you.  Sound waves like to move wall & other parts; all connected to the floor = vibrating the Verdier.zz.
08-25-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 21181
Reply to: 21180
Questioning unquestionable.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zztop7 wrote:
People forget that their floor, subfloor, & other associated structural pieces connected to & part of the listening room will have to EQUAL the standards of the Verdier.  Do NOT count on your contractor no matter what he promises you.  Sound waves like to move wall & other parts; all connected to the floor = vibrating the Verdier.zz.

You are unquestionably right. There is nothing in the Verdier that handles the floor, sub floor and other structural vibrations, not that it could not added BTW. However, I would question, just for sake of argument, your unquestionable correctness: how bid deal that is? Are you able to definitively point out in Playback Sound the adverse contribution of vibration floors under turntable? If you do then please, educate me.

I know the argument. We decuple a bad suspending floor from out precious turntables with some kind pneumatic later: would it the scientific Vibraplane or would be a bicycles inner tube under a steady platform (or fresh sand… the list might be endless). Any good solution works and a “long”, mass-loaded let say pneumatic suspension does lower external vibrations to very low frequency, almost to a single hertz. Here we are! The Vibraplane “works” we figure, the vibrating floor were defeated, right? Well, not necessarily. From intellectually-theoretical perspective, spiced with some audiophile wishful thinking, it might be the case but if to look in the issues slightly deeper and more empirical point of view then a few questions you would ask youreslf:

1)      Why Vibraplane positively contributes to sound even if it used under stable floor? Take the very same turntable, put it atop of a huge granite rock leaded to “center earth”, the location where no man-made vibration maters anymore and you still will recognize the Vibraplane’s positive contribution. So, is it possible that pneumatic decupling in fact does not strike the vibration but rather helps with something else?

2)      Why do we feel that ultra low frequencies of ground vibration are more harmful then relatively high frequency of air-transmuted vibration? We do not a lot of TT that build mass load sarcophaguses around TT, do we?

3)      Why pneumatic decupling not always work with all type of TT in identical way? Yes, different turntables have sometimes employ own dealing with floor vibration but most of them not and if you look at a few TT that have no anti-floor vibration measures in design then pneumatic decupling will help them but in different way. Why? If all that we are talking is getting rid of floor vibration then a common denominator of let say pneumatic measures improvement would be namely the floor vibration’s negative contribution. I do not think that anybody would be able to identify it because the improvement we would get in those methodologically controlled experiments would be pretty much unsystematic and random.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-25-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #: 4
Post ID: 21182
Reply to: 21181
Education
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote: "  If you do then please, educate me. ..................................................TEXT................................ I do not think that anybody would be able to identify it because the improvement we would get in those methodologically controlled experiments would be pretty much unsystematic and random."
zz replies: I think you covered the education, & I am not able to point out the random "adverse contribution of vibration floors under turntable" I do believe that it is best to minimize adverse contributions. Best to you, zz.
08-25-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,138
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 21183
Reply to: 21182
Journey to the Center of the Earth
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am imagining a poured-in-place concrete shelf that is part of a large, heavy concrete shear wall. I think this would be a nice place to start dealing with the "transmitted (floor) noise". Of course the TT does not work alone but it works (or not) along with the arm and cartridge, and the entire room, including the "space", itself, and all of it needs to be considered when tuning the "TT". I can think of plenty of failed installations that "look important", but few that really seemed to be systematically developed through critical listening over time. Sure, solutions are "system dependent", and also situational. But I do like the idea of the Center of the Earth grounding! I look at the "un-suspended" Palmer TT and feel like it is just inches away from being useable. OTOH, if I put my "suspended" Sota up on a tall, "rigid" stand that is spiked to a suspended floor, then it is unusable. Think it through, trial and error, TTs need lapping and honing to fit a particular installation. I wish I had a Universal Solution for TT suspension, although it seems like one can make nearly as much money simply by describing "problems" and "solutions" and creating a buzz.


It goes without saying that a big slab of granite parked on a suspended floor can move with floor joists at 5 Hz, whatever that means, and I have been in concrete buildings where the concrete moved perceptibly when the elevators moved (NOT saying it would affect a TT).

Maybe we need a ship-grade gyroscope?

Best regards,
Paul S
08-26-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 21184
Reply to: 21182
Adverse contributions.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zztop7 wrote:
I do believe that it is best to minimize adverse contributions.

zztop7, I was very much not my intention to be abrasive with you and I am surprised that you got it in this way, it wasvery much not personal. The angle that I brought up regarding "adverse contribution of vibration floors under turntable" was not to ridicule your post but rather to ridicule the whole logical outlook that we all have in audio. Do you think I personally do not feel that Platine Verdier is locking the anti-vibration platform? Of cause I do but looking at the thing empirical I myself have no idea if it true necessary.

We have so many "believes" in audio that are based on very logical and very explainable concepts and sometimes they works and sometime they do not. The turntables, and in particular the very high flying turntables is the most mysterious of all and only god know what makes to sound better or worse.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #: 7
Post ID: 21185
Reply to: 21184
Vibrations = adverse contributions
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
You were totally professional and proper; & I was greatly impressed with you reply.
When I [zz] wrote " I do believe that it is best to minimize adverse contributions" -this statement was a reference to adverse contribution of vibration floors under table.
Your reply was NOT adverse.  Your reply was NOT abrasive.
The education was excellent.
Best to you,zz.

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