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01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 161
Post ID: 12763
Reply to: 12659
Crossover balancing act; Act III
fiogf49gjkf0d

Jessie,

I was trying to evaluate the gain of my amplification in respect to larger room and again was thinking about your case. I think something that you do it not correct. You are complaining that you have not enough gain in upperbass, but I think you have not properly set gain reference point in your playback. You need always have gain reference point, which most likely will be the channel with lowest sensitivity. Let see how it done in Milq. It is milliamp or not - it is irrelevant, we are taking about gain now.

The bass channel is chosen as a reference gain channel, marked as “A”, and everything is measured in respect to it gain. In the Milq you see it running wide-open. The 30K resistor in the input crossover and the green resistor of bias do not form a voltage divider as they are refers to different sores and the shunting resistor is 1Meg   

The upperbass channels make as “B” sits behind voltage divider (30K and 12.1K to ground). I do not remember but I think it doe 3dB. Pay attention that the upperbass runs from ½ of the tube, so proximally 1-2 db also is lost to the running 3C33C with a half-plate.

The gain of Fundamentals Chanel “D” is heavily killed by attenuator in secondary.

 The midrange “E” runs in my case full open at line level.

In your case you run your bass channels from a separate amp and the horn channels from Lamm ML2, right?  Lamm has a LOT of gain, much more then Milq, I think it is 26dB. It has 26dB gain and will out 17V into 8R at 1000Hz. This is a LOT; you most likely have a preamp that has 5-15dB gain – so look at the voltage that your playback can swing.  For instance your Vitavox S2 driver in my room and from 8-9 feet needs 250-500mV to sound at comfortable level.  With 1V it will scream very loud. If you remember at the time I used Lamm ML2 and drove my S2 from it I has 14dB voltage divider and used 4R ML2 tap. So, if you run your S2 from wide-open ML2 then it would not be a surprise the you have no other channels match it.

What you need to go it to find how much gain you need. I do know what preamp you use but as a rule- connect it to the less sensitive horn channel – let pretend that it will be your upperbass. Run the channels at it max out and to see how loud it gets. You need to be able to play very loud with your volume control set at 60-70% of the full gain. After you find this configuration then begin to roll off your MF and HF channels until they match your upperbass. I do feel that you will attenuate your S2 quite aggressively. You might even put some 16R LPAD before S2 and to use it for messmates, determining how much you need to attenuate it (do not use it for listening as the LPAD inductance will kill HF). So connect your wide open upperbass and your MF behind the LPAD. Then run a 20-20000Hz sweep and adjust the LPAD until your upperbass will have the same out as your MF. Then measured the LPAD’s impedance to one and another side and you will have your resistors for your voltage divider.  Replace the LPAD’s with none-inactive fixed restores of 1W-5W and your will be all set.

Jessie, I do think that you run your MF too hot. Where is the volume control setting in your preamp when you run your playback too loud? I presume that it at 20-30% of the full scale….

Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,197
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 162
Post ID: 12770
Reply to: 12763
At Home with the Classic HE Riddle
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, that is a much better way of explaining what I meant to mention, that it seems like one's best shot at character matching HE drivers (at home) involves accepting and starting with the lowest common denominator rather than turning up the power on a less efficient driver.  And since LF is almost always the weak sister, it's usually the unwobbling pivot in designing a speaker system.

As for powering up rather than down, the savvy pros still pad down first and then power up second, but they typically have LOTS of power to burn, not to mention that their objectives (and resultant sonics) are quite different from what we'd seriously consider for home use.


Best regards,
Paul S
01-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 163
Post ID: 12778
Reply to: 12763
Getting loaded
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote:

"...You are complaining that you have not enough gain in upperbass..."


It is also possible that I'm reacting to a lack of true dedicated mid-bass. As previously mentioned, while the pair of 40Hz horns are under constructon, I compensate for their absence by making the "neighboring" channels (115Hz horn and lower-bass enclosures) work beyond their intended range, which they sort of do.

The room measures about 65-70M², open on one side to another 15M² area; everwhere there are 3M-high ceilings. It is clear that the lower-bass channels can more than load this room in the range for which they were designed (below 60Hz).

"...In your case you run your bass channels from a separate amp and the horn channels from Lamm ML2, right?.."

Correct (M1.1s for the lower-bass, and ML2s for the horns).

"...What you need to go is to find how much gain you need. I do know what preamp you use..."
 
Currently using an L1, but normally use an L2 (I'm repairing the L2; a tube socket failed and resulted in damage to some capacitors; Lamm sent new parts). I made a voltage divider (attenuator) to place before the input of each ML2, which attenuate either 14 or 16 dB; its been a while since I made them.

"...but as a rule- connect it to the less sensitive horn channel – let pretend that it will be your upperbass..."

It is.

"...Run the channels at it max out and to see how loud it gets. You need to be able to play very loud with your volume control set at 60-70% of the full gain. After you find this configuration then begin to roll off your MF and HF channels until they match your upperbass. I do feel that you will attenuate your S2 quite aggressively. You might even put some 16R LPAD before S2 and to use it for estimates, determining how much you need to attenuate it (do not use it for listening as the LPAD inductance will kill HF). So connect your wide open upperbass and your MF behind the LPAD. Then run a 20-20000Hz sweep and adjust the LPAD until your upperbass will have the same out as your MF..."

This is more or less what I did, though I did it by ear, while listening to music (I have not yet used test equipment to measure the results).

"...Then measured the LPAD’s impedance to one and another side and you will have your resistors for your voltage divider.  Replace the LPAD’s with non-inactive fixed restores of 1W-5W and your will be all set..."

Though I have not yet done it, taking into account the destructive effects of the L-Pads (see previous posts), this was going to be my next step. I may first try using 8 Ohm versions of the drivers in the upper-bass horns.

I'm currently back to using L-Pads only on the lower-mid horns (S2 into 180Hz horns).

"...Where is the volume control setting in your preamp when you run your playback too loud? I presume that it at 20-30% of the full scale…"

Using the L2 with afore-mentioned voltage dividers/attenuators (before the ML2s), the volume setting is usually pointed up around 12 o'clock (50%); a bit more during the day, if the gf is not around. More than that starts to be too loud.

Thanks for your comments,

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-06-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 164
Post ID: 13094
Reply to: 12778
Upper-bass sweeps
fiogf49gjkf0d
Since having replaced the 16 Ohm drivers in my upper-bass horns with 8 Ohm versions of the same driver, I gained enough upper-bass output that it is now possible to run all horns from the 8 Ohm taps (I was previously running upper-bass from the 16 Ohm taps in order to increase their output).

In the Mid-bass horns and real estate thread Debugging the upperbass I mentioned that in spite of this gain, I still hear the absence of the as yet not completed mid-bass horns.

In response to that comment, Romy wrote:

"...I still do not know why you have weakness in 80-160Hz octave. Your upperbass shall cover it perfectly fine. Can you post sweep of your upperbass alone with no crossover. Actually I would need 4 sweeps if you do not mind.

1)      Regular slow sweep were 20-20000 is passed within 15-20 seconds from horn default position

2)      Regular vibrating sweep were 20-20000 is passed within 10 seconds

3)      Regular slow sweep were 20-20000 is passed within 15-20 seconds but from different location, from another perpendicular wall

4)      Regular slow sweep with your other channels attached electrically but the horn are plugged and do not radiate sound.

I do think that you have some kind of bug as I feel that your upperbass shall not have the 80-160Hz problem..."

Here are the sweeps (all measurements done with no filters on the upper-bass horns; microphone placed in listening position about 12 feet away):

2x 115Hz horns 20-20KHz in small increments.jpg




















Above: 1) Both upper-bass horns in their normal position, playing a succession of narrowly spaced tones from 20-20KHz



2x 115Hz horns 20-20KHz warble tones.jpg




















Above: 2) Same as previous image, but this time playing a succession of not so narrowly spaced vibrating or warble tones from 20-20KHz
(I used recorded tones for the "vibrating" sweeps; they are not as closely spaced as the non-vibrating tones in the previous image, which were created using a tone generator)



1x 115Hz horn Left wall 20-20KHz in small increments.jpg




















Above: A single upper-bass horn, playing a succession of narrowly spaced tones from 20-20KHz

 


1x 115Hz horn Right wall 20-20KHz in small increments.jpg




















Above: 3) Same as previous image, but this time the horn was moved to an alternate position.



2x 115Hz horns Others connected & stuffed No mid or lower-bass 20-20KHz in small increments.jpg




















Above: 4) Both upper-bass horns in their normal position, playing a succession of narrowly spaced tones from 20-20KHz, with all mid and HF drivers connected, but physically muted.
 

I did one more sweep running the lower-bass modules as well, which indicated that they are taking over below the upper-bass horns, right about where they should. In light of this, it is unlikely that I am correct in stating that I was hearing a lack of output in the 80-160Hz octave.

To be continued...

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 165
Post ID: 13101
Reply to: 13094
The commentaries about the Upper-bass sweep.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Similar to the famous sexist tail that women can be only ether pretty or smart the midbass horns unfortunately behave in the very same way: they can be only nicely placed in a room or they can sound good. You want the horn to place in a specific location of your room as it feel good for your house décor and living habits and it turns out to be the worst location for them from the perspective of About speakers Imbedded Macro-Positioning. Sucks!

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421

It looks the acoustically the default location of your horns is not the best in your room.

I would discard the first two images with both horns playing they are irrelevant at this point.  Let look at the image 3 and 4 from above: Left wall and Right wall.  It is very clear the right wall is much more interesting from upper-bass Macro-Positioning pint of view.  You see the response is more dense and with much more significant LF. Those minor differences in decay at the bottom knee are VERY auditable. I would like to be able to see the grid better, the horizontal lines to see detail but it still is very obvious. Still, you alternative wall position might not be the best in the room and you might have even better location. I do not know how the acoustically better locations are better from the perspective of your living objectives.

Anyhow, let see what you have with your upperbass and what you can do.  The usable image would be the third from the top (it has no number). That is OK response but you need to set a proper reference level for this channel. This is VERY important. Let me to explain what I mean. If you look at the response of the horn then probably the gray line on my image below would be the channel reference. It means the other channels need to be balanced to the gray line. What you need however to do is discard the response of the channel and to set the reference level that you would it to be. I would propose a few dB lower. Take a look at the yellow line that I feel much be you reference level:

Jessie_Projected_Response.jpg

Looking at the yellow reference line you will see that horn overshoot it but do not let it to bother you. If you implement let say 450Hz filter and add 2-3dB of the upperbass out then you virtually increase the output of your m upperbass in the frequencies that you are looking for. Be advised that you will have a LOT of problems to do it as it is very hard to low-pass of this driver with speaker-level crossover as the coil the crossover will talk with inductance of the driver and combined coil will be much lower. You would need to use a coil 3-4 times larger then what calculation would suggest but this overly large coil would talk too much with your MF channel. Multi-amping will kill the problem and the crossover in the amp will not be seeing the driver inductance. Using the speaker level crossover you need to use larger coil.

So, you roll off the upperbass sooner then the channel would like you to do and boost 2-3 dB of the channel’s gain. You might not have those 2-3dB driving the thing from a single amp. To get 3dB more you will need to go to another tap but it would make the output tube to be loaded harder at the frequency of given channel and might make the sound too slow. Also, do not forget that you use first order filets and change of the loading for a given channel will very much affect loading for other channels, the last picture shows it very well, in fact ML2 with feedback handles it much better then other amps would do.  So, what you need to do if you need more gain but do not have it? You need to drop the level of your other associated channels. It would not be a good idea to do it for bass channels as adding resistors would affect damping. However for HF channel adding resistors (dividers or juts single resistors) would be fine. Find a non-inductive resistor (very important) of a few watts and use it with your MF driver, driving it for a few dB doe and matching your yellow reference line.  Do the same with tweeter and fundamental channel and your will have proper upperbass balance for your system.

I do not know what kind bass your use but add the LB channel to the mix (still using the NEW yellow line as reference). Then you would need to do a very important thing- to fine tune what would be your Yellow Reference Line (YRL). At this point your YRL is purely arbitrary but you need to bind it to you room.  Here are some techniques that you might find useful. Shut down your fundamental channel (still ONLY for one left or right channel) and use ONLY MF and Midbass to get the sound that you feel is right. It shell be a proper balance between the violins/violas and cello section in complex (very important) music. I uselessly use Vein or Berlin Philharmonic only for reference balance; use what performance you fine is right for you. After you set up your MF and Midbass and feel that you have attenuated MF good enough to have proper balance then add bass channel. If your MF/Midbass balance is correct then running your bass channel a few dBs lower then YRL or higher YRL shall NOT make you to wish to change the MF/Midbass balance. Do the same with tweeter and then with tweeter and bass. After you do feel confident about your MF/Midbass balance than begin to inject your Fundamental Channel. Start it from 15dB down and begin to add it (check the phase) very slow until you begin to recognize the very first sighs of it auditable contribution.  The auditable contribution of Fundamental Channel will be partially from the Channel itself and partially from the fact that the Channel will affect the response of you Midbass Channel. It is not predictable and you need to play with it for a bit. Disregard the measurable date you will be getting at this point. Remember, you MF/Midbass balance is all set and you now need to see if adding of your Fundamental Channel will be able to compromise your feeling about the MF/Midbass balance. This is a bit tricky and you would need to spend time with it. The key in here is to find out HOW the use of Fundamental Channel will revise your view of MF/Midbass balance. You might decide to change the MF/Midbass balance (via the MF resistor) while you are begin to use Fundamental Channel but at this point it will be very minor change, no more then .5dB.

The result of all of it shall be your confidence that your MF/Midbass balance is proper for the given location of your Midbass channel in the room. A pair of Midbass Channels shall be loading the room with thick and “crowded” sound, acting as a virtual pedal point for your MF. The channel shall also to unload it from the room with proper speed but not faster than it has to. You need to have some music that has the “cello crash” and you need to make sure that your room will be “dramatically” loaded but not over-loaded and will very “gracefully” release the load. Ironically, if everything is done poorly then the “drama” and the “grace” will not fluctuate from volume too much.

When you reach the point where you feel you somewhere near the proper MF/Midbass balance you need to think about your sound not as it a playback but as you are conducting a live orchestra and it is your responsibility to shape the balance in a way you feel it need to be. If you feel that your best MF/Midbass balance would be different at different recordings then you do not have proper MF/Midbass balance yet. The MF/Midbass balance of your system shall be more accurate than any random orchestral balance out there. Then your playback system becomes a reference against which all orchestral and recording deviations will be measuring. You personally shall have absolute confidence and supreme believe in your MF/Midbass balance. If you go in future for multi-amping then do not forget regularly check the outputs your amps (tunes are not stable) to make sure that your MF/Midbass balance still hold a reference level.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 166
Post ID: 13109
Reply to: 13101
Upper-bass as a system's fulcrum: Part I
fiogf49gjkf0d
First off, I forgot to mention an interesting observation: Before running the sweeps (previous post), since the drivers in the upper-bass horns are new, I decided to verify/optimize rear chamber volume (they are easily adjustable)... I wasn't expecting to have to move the piston much, but in fact I did move it quite a lot, and was surprised at how much this movement affected the output of lower frequencies. Prior to this, with the 16 Ohm versions, I had only adjusted rear chamber volume with filters (coils) in place, and for whatever reason, the effect was less pronounced.

Romy wrote:

"...It looks the acoustically the default location of your horns is not the best in your room... Still, you alternative wall position might not be the best in the room and you might have even better location..."

Yes, and for the moment, there is no possibility to optimize placement; the entire system, along with the first completed mid-bass horn have had to be pushed to one side of the main room, in order to leave space for the construction of the second mid-bass horn.

"...If you implement let say 450Hz filter and add 2-3dB of the upperbass out[put], then you virtually increase the output of your upperbass in the frequencies that you are looking for..."

Yes, I follow.

"...Be advised that you will have a LOT of problems to do it as it is very hard to low-pass this driver with speaker-level crossover as the coil the crossover will talk with inductance of the driver and combined coil will be much lower. You would need to use a coil 3-4 times larger then what calculation would suggest but this overly large coil would talk too much with your MF channel. Multi-amping will kill the problem and the crossover in the amp will not be seeing the driver inductance. Using the speaker level crossover you need to use larger coil..."

I run the lower-mid horn (S2 into 180Hz tractrix) down to 400Hz, so I'd like to low-pass the upper-bass at that point. A 2.50mH coil (which would, according to calculations, low-pass the driver at 510Hz) has almost no effect; 4.50mH starts to make an audible difference, but the driver is still playing a lot of mid-range. I have larger coils on hand, but have not yet tried them. 

"...So, you roll off the upperbass sooner then the channel would like you to do and boost 2-3 dB of the channel’s gain. You might not have those 2-3dB driving the thing from a single amp. To get 3dB more you will need to go to another tap but it would make the output tube to be loaded harder at the frequency of given channel and might make the sound too slow... Also, do not forget that you use first order filets and change of the loading for a given channel will very much affect loading for other channels..."

What really surprised me was how good everything sounded with no filter on the upper-bass horns, and all drivers connected to the same (8 Ohm) tap; sure I'm getting too much mid-range from the upper-bass horn, but its not as destructive as I would have predicted.

"...So, what you need to do if you need more gain but do not have it? You need to drop the level of your other associated channels. It would not be a good idea to do it for bass channels as adding resistors would affect damping. However for HF channel adding resistors (dividers or juts single resistors) would be fine. Find a non-inductive resistor (very important) of a few watts and use it with your MF driver, driving it for a few dB down and matching your yellow reference line.  Do the same with tweeter and fundamental channel and your will have proper upperbass balance for your system..."

Yes, finding the proper level of attenuation should be fairly simple; as previously discussed, I could use the L-Pads already in place (currently bypassed) on all MF and HF drivers to establish the correct level, then build the corresponding resistive voltage dividers.

"...I do not know what kind bass you use but add the LB channel to the mix (still using the NEW yellow line as reference)..."

Two 16 cubic ft concrete enclosures; each housing a single McCauley 6174 (18" paper cone; rubber suspension), driven by a pair of M1.1s.

"...Then you would need to do a very important thing- to fine tune what would be your Yellow Reference Line (YRL). At this point your YRL is purely arbitrary but you need to bind it to you room.  Here are some techniques that you might find useful. Shut down your fundamental channel (still ONLY for one left or right channel) and use ONLY MF and Midbass [upper-bass?] to get the sound that you feel is right. It shell be a proper balance between the violins/violas and cello section in complex (very important) music. I usually use Vienna or Berlin Philharmonic only for reference balance; use what performance you fine is right for you. After you set up your MF and Midbass [MF and upper-bass ?] and feel that you have attenuated MF good enough to have proper balance then add bass [assuming you mean mid or lower-bass] channel. If your MF/Midbass [MF/upper-bass?] balance is correct then running your bass [mid and lower-bass?] channel a few dBs lower then YRL or higher YRL shall NOT make you to wish to change the MF/Midbass [MF/upper-bass?] balance..."

Though I don't know if the "[corrections]" I added are what you intended to write, reading it this way make sense to me.

"...Do the same with tweeter [tweeter and MF I assume] , and then with tweeter and bass [tweeter and upper-bass I assume]..."

"...After you do feel confident about your MF/Midbass [MF/upper-bass?] balance than begin to inject your Fundamental Channel. Start it from 15dB down and begin to add it (check the phase) very slow until you begin to recognize the very first sighs of it auditable contribution..."

I have tried using the 180Hz horn as you use your 250Hz horn; that is to say, to play attenuated lower-MF; I've also tried addressing MF via two channels, each contributing equally in terms of amplitude. The jury is still out as to which will be the final configuration, but I have to say that I can't fully justify attenuating the 180Hz horn when it gives such life to cello and larger wind instruments, both brass and wood.

Also, as one might expect, the high location of this horn running without attenuation affects overall depiction of space. My ears tell me that there is potential to exploite this, turning it to an advantage, provided the listener is able to sit at least 10 feet away.

This issue will get the time it deserves once construction of the mid-bass horns is complete, and I'm able to move the system back to its original place in the room, at which point I will do exactly as you describe.

Can you confirm that in the following two paragraphs, in place of "mid-bass" you meant to write UPPER-BASS, so that it would read as follows (my apologies if this was not your intent)?

"...The result of all of it shall be your confidence that your MF/UPPER-BASS balance is proper for the given location of your UPPER-BASS channel in the room. A pair of UPPER-BASS Channels shall be loading the room with thick and “crowded” sound, acting as a virtual pedal point for your MF. The channel shall also to unload it from the room with proper speed but not faster than it has to. You need to have some music that has the “cello crash” and you need to make sure that your room will be “dramatically” loaded but not over-loaded and will very “gracefully” release the load. Ironically, if everything is done poorly [properly?] then the “drama” and the “grace” will not fluctuate from volume too much.

When you reach the point where you feel you somewhere near the proper MF/UPPER-BASS balance you need to think about your sound not as it a playback but as you are conducting a live orchestra and it is your responsibility to shape the balance in a way you feel it need to be. If you feel that your best MF/UPPER-BASS balance would be different at different recordings then you do not have proper MF/UPPER-BASS balance yet. The MF/UPPER-BASS  balance of your system shall be more accurate than any random orchestral balance out there. Then your playback system becomes a reference against which all orchestral and recording deviations will be measuring. You personally shall have absolute confidence and supreme believe in your MF/UPPER-BASS balance. If you go in future for multi-amping then do not forget regularly check the outputs your amps (tubes are not stable) to make sure that your MF/UPPER-BASS balance still hold a reference level..."

It is entirely possible that I end up multi-amping the system further than is already the case (a second pair of amps currently drives lower-bass); if not going for full DSET, I could imagine driving mid-bass and upper-bass from a dedicated pair of amps.

Once the mid-bass horns are done, I'll move the system, get it sounding a good I'm able, then post a composite of sweeps showing curves for all channels in a single frame.

Thanks much,

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 167
Post ID: 13110
Reply to: 13109
The dally horn thoughts…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
What really surprised me was how good everything sounded with no filter on the upper-bass horns, and all drivers connected to the same (8 Ohm) tap; sure I'm getting too much mid-range from the upper-bass horn, but its not as destructive as I would have predicted.

Yes, Fane Studio 8M does fine in this horn to 4K and it if works alone with S2 then it is not very annoying. However, your Fundamental Chanel will produce much better 500-100Hx then Fane and this it would be a good idea to roll of the Fane sooner. The length of tail that your midbass will output would dictate not the lower MF tone but the vertical virtual centering of your system. If you feel that from your listening distance you will have some minor vertical movement of virtual MF source ten you might let the Fane’s tail to run a bit lower and it will tight the virtual MF source to you center (that I presume is the location of your MF driver). Those techniques are one of the many advantages of Macondo configuration and they were among the methods that allow me to integrate drivers from absolutely insane near-field distance.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Yes, finding the proper level of attenuation should be fairly simple; as previously discussed, I could use the L-Pads already in place (currently bypassed) on all MF and HF drivers to establish the correct level, then build the corresponding resistive voltage dividers.

Be VERY careful and DO NOT use the wirewound L-Pads for MF and HF channels. The wirewound L-Pads are hugely inductive and then eat MF’s and HF’s transients VERY aggressively. Use ONLY not inductive fixed restors.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
"...Do the same with tweeter [tweeter and MF I assume] , and then with tweeter and bass [tweeter and upper-bass I assume]..."

What I was trying to say was that adding HF or LF channels shall not affect your perception of the rightness of the MF/upperbass balance. In the rest your corrections were correct. In my post about I did not write anything about Midbass and use upper-bass and Midbass interchangeably. The reason is the nether I not you have the Midbass channels operational.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
It is entirely possible that I end up multi-amping the system further than is already the case (a second pair of amps currently drives lower-bass); if not going for full DSET, I could imagine driving mid-bass and upper-bass from a dedicated pair of amps.

I would say that if you do for economic configuration then you would need to drive the mid-bass and upper-bass from one amp and Fundamental, MF and HF from another amp. The key in here do not let the fine MF driver to see the inductive reaction of big mid-bass and upper-bass voice coils

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 168
Post ID: 15132
Reply to: 4898
Cost of moving vs. cost of cashing.
fiogf49gjkf0d

In he French Horns/drivers shootout thread:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=15130#15130

Jessie wrote:

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
…I'll definitely let you know if I get the system up and running again before leaving France (the mid-bass horns, once done, could be temporarily moved out of the way), otherwise you'll have a reason to visit the Detroit area.

It not related to anything perhaps with exception to the thread: To move audio equipment in another home.

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=12886

Bu I decided to post the question in Jessie’s own thread.

As I understand the horns and the ULF section are massive. They are semi-clay-made and hardly disassembleable. So, the cost of moving them to US will be huge. Did you consider do no move them in US but to cash the entire project in France and then hire someone in Detroit to do work for you? Living aside the sentimental personal attached to the labor of your hands and the fact that you have developed a number of mean illnesses while you were mixing the wax and building the horns, I would propose that the idea to sell the system in there and then built it here is very interesting from the following perspective:

1)    The cost of labor in US and most likely in Detroit is very low. For instance the cost of labor for my Midbass project was a half of what I expected
2)    You might to review some of your initial ideas and to make it second time better.
3)    You might hold building the system until your other circumstances (financial, social etc…) would click.
4)    You will be much more flexible real-estate deals if you do not have right the way demands for perfect listening room.

The point is that I m sure that after year of living abroad and moving to US you will have something else in your priorities list. If I were you and if I move to different country then I would put the system in storage for some months/years. Anyhow, if I was you then I would problem keep the MF horns but the ULF and Midbass would try to unload in Europe. The fact the they are not finished is very good – it means the new owner will slightly modify how he would like to have them and then you juts finish the project but it will be for sale deal.

Sorry, I enter into too private subjects, this is not my business of course but I think you I proposed do have some common sense. Well, I know that if I move from my house then I will live the midbass horn behind, right in the walls….

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 169
Post ID: 15141
Reply to: 15132
Having your horn and eating it!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Jessie:

It is indeed a (t)horny dilemna whether to get rid of the midbass horns now, with a view to starting all over again and customise the new horns for your eventual new home in Detroit or ship them at unfortunately what will be a very substantial cost to the US.

I did offer to buy your ULF enclosures and in all honesty this was partly out of an unexpressed desire to be helpful if possible. Well, with the huge horns I may present you with a solution which is an improvement on Romy's suggestion of 'cashing' them in. I have been quite impressed by the effort that went in producing these horns, a labour of love if ever there was one. And you obviously would hate to sell them and then find that at some point down the line, it is exactly these horns that you wanted to use all along. Well, if you could put them in storage somewhere, that would delay the decision until you have settled down in Detroit and decided what to do. Of course, such a solution comes at a price and you face the certainty of knowing that the cost of storage (which may be substantial depending on the passage of time involved) are unrecoverable.

I could offer you access to a fairly large garage in northern Cambridgeshire (about 100 miles north of London) where you could store the midbass horns. You do not have to budget for the cost of storage at all until you decide in 15-24 months' time say what you want to do. Three options are then open to you.

(i) You decide to ship the horns to your new place in the US. All you have to do at that point is settle a pre-agreed cost of storage with me.

(ii) You decide to sell the horns to me at a pre-agreed price minus the cost of storage. I may well find they are the horns that I need when I myself move (to France no less!!).

(iii) You decide to sell the horns and I decide that I do not need them. I help you advertise and offload your horns.

What makes this proposition even more interesting is that the garage may be large enough to accomodate your other horns/equipment until you are ready to have them shipped over. Of course, the whole scheme would be simpler if I was in or around Paris. Although I do know quite a lot of people there, I do not know anyone  who would have storage for such large units for such a length of time. If it was a shorter period and you have some smaller specific items that you wanted kept in storage, say your Lamm amps, then I could help with that without any difficulty whatsoever. Let me know.

Good luck
Rakesh

12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 170
Post ID: 15146
Reply to: 15141
A certain amount of ballast
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
 
Selling the heavy stuff would be smart... Wait a minute; its all heavy. The ULF modules would be fairly easy to recreate; in any case, I want to redo the enclosures using different materials, so this part of it makes sense to me.
 
I'm not entirely sure that moving the system will be so expensive; I once built a fully functional street-going spaceship, complete with its own custom trailer; total cost to move the lot from Paris to Miami using a 40-foot container in 1997 was around $3500 (anybody want to buy a spaceship? Currently sitting in storage...)
 
With regard to the horn part of my system, I don't see my priorities changing. For my own purposes, there are a few minor things I'd do differently if starting again from scratch, but they alone do not warrant doing it all again (most are related to simplifying and adding precission to the "manufacturing process"). I feel no sentimental attachment to the products of my labor; I just don't want to go months without a system.
 
Its another subject, but with S2 and AK drivers once again available (at least in theory), it would now be possible to offer a refined version of the system for sale; I have exactly the right contacts for this sort of work (machining molds and parts for the chassis, which I'd give a simple aesthetic, more appropriate for a domestic environment... Industrial design is my day-job). This might be a reason to do it all again, but I'd rather make more spaceships.
 
As for demands on real estate, there were only two; that it be within a short stagger of my preferred bars and restaurants (the area has ridiculously draconian DUI laws), and that it be priced so that I could afford it without a mortgage. I say were because this summer I found and bought such a house (yes well ahead of schedule; my backward way of giving myself a kick in the ass). Its a small-ish place, which should be just about right once I remove all interior walls. Anyway, having a one-room house is a long-time fantasy of mine.
 
I'm pre-resigned to renting more than a single 40-footer; apart from the horns and audio gear, the only things worth keeping are an old car, an old motorcycle and a handful of Metrix U61s (big old tube testers).
 
Rakesh,
 
Thanks for the offer. Before leaving the US, a friend told me how to deal with my "collection" of cars; "just buy a storage facility out in the sticks where its cheap, stuff it full of cars, then tell yourself you'll be coming back; whether you really do come back or not is of course entirely optional". I followed his advice and currently rent four storage facilities; two on either side of the Atlantic. I think its time to consolidate, but I'll definitely let you know if I need to add a fifth.
 
jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 171
Post ID: 15148
Reply to: 15146
ULF enclosures (images)
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've meant for some time to add a few shots of the ULF channels.
Here's the first one; the photos were taken at my old place.

Lower-Bass B&W 00.jpg
Sized to fit through the door of the elevator (barely).
Baffle and lid cut with diamond blade.
Getting that lid up to seal the enclosure took some imagination.

Lower-Bass B&W 01.jpg
Driver ready to mount.

Lower-Bass B&W 02.jpg
Done (originally was going to cover them but natural finish grew on me)

Material: Concrete block
Drivers: McCauley 6174

I can remember testing the second one with the "lid" in position but not yet sealed; the 6174 actually made it visibly dance (driven by only 100 watts)! Once sealed and in use, the concrete blocks of one enclosure developed hairline cracks! I'm not sure if it was due to pressure or a shock inflicted on the blocks before I bought them. They still sound great, but there's a lesson here for anyone contemplating a similar project: Don't use these drivers in an enclosure made from pre-fabbed concrete blocks. Next time I'm making them from a double wall of 3/4-inch plywood sandwiching two inches of sand.

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 184
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 172
Post ID: 15150
Reply to: 15146
Mighty McCauleys
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Romy,
 
I followed his advice and currently rent four storage facilities; two on either side of the Atlantic. I think its time to consolidate, but I'll definitely let you know if I need to add a fifth.
 
jd*


Jessie:

The offer stands but you certainly sound like you have meticulously covered all eventualities. Should I build a 40-50 Hz horn like you have done in due course, I too would plan to take it with me rather than start the building process again unless of course the new room dictated otherwise.

I would be interested in knowing the pressure that builds up inside one of your ULF enclosures using a single McCauley driver if you know it. Pre-fab concrete is of course made for different applications and from the abundant evidence of your past projects detailed here, one would think you chose the pre-fab material so it would withstand that kind of pressure. I would imagine that if one hopes to get the best out of pre-fab concrete, weight becomes an issue at some point.

In your new room if you know well enough the correct locations of the ULF/midbass channels, you might want to incorporate these in the walls of the room or the basement/attic to preserve a livable space if the entire ground floor is open plan.

Good luck

Rakesh
12-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,623
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 173
Post ID: 15152
Reply to: 15148
Will this better to be auditable?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Next time I'm making them from a double wall of 3/4-inch plywood sandwiching two inches of sand.
I do not know if that would be truly necessary. For sure it will not hurt and will be better but ULF that works with sub 40hz horn will do around 30Hz crossover. There are no box colors in there; in fact there is no sound in there. At this frequency a driver withn3-4 order produce most of the artifacts but not sound. If I do go from my 10-incer to 18-24” drives then I will do most likely just plywood sealed box. Sure to have it double wall with sand will be better. Will this better to be auditable? I do not know. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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