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  »  New  A quest for a better SET...  Still, there is something in it....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     3  44770  02-05-2005
  »  New  The Silence of the Lamms!..  Well, Lamms are not exactly fun anymore. ...  Audio Discussions  Forum     7  53764  06-12-2005
  »  New  Romy, how does the original ML2 sound in regards to acc..  Modification of Lamm’s SET...  Audio Discussions  Forum     5  46015  06-20-2005
  »  New  Lamm Industries: a special interview with a special com..  I do not think so but I migh be wrong....  Audio News Forum     94  951346  09-18-2005
  »  New  Lamm hybrids: M1.2 vs. Lamm M1.1..  Lamm hybrids: M1.2 vs. Lamm M1.1...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  21545  12-12-2007
  »  New  The short "6C33C Survival Guide"...  Ac filament.....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     20  252344  12-18-2007
  »  New  Amplification and Consciousness...  Freedom of expression vs. something to say...  Playback Listening  Forum     15  75596  01-07-2008
  »  New  Relief from micro-arcing tube pins?..  Still Going......  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  35862  09-28-2008
01-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 161
Post ID: 12677
Reply to: 12671
The Factory System
fiogf49gjkf0d

Jessie, current is mentioned repeatedly because in the case of DC, and in this situation, the current is actually what one wants to meter out.  Lamm just gave us a simple way to take a reasonably stable, real-time "measure of current" at this point, which would otherwise be +/- impossible to do.  No slights were (or are) intended or implied regarding any of these (or any other) "test procedures", since the actual circumstances are, to my feeble mind, far more arcane than we have touched on herein.  I went for years assuming that all calculated values could always be measured and "verified" for working voltage and current, inductance, capacitance, etc., and I was amazed and remain quite confused to find that, for all intents and purposes, math is as close as one actually gets to "knowing" the actual operating "values" one cranks with figures throughout a given circuit.  Basically, it's Heisenberg, all over again.  Few people have the depth of understanding necessary to conduct meaningful electrical forensics or really design in audio circuits, and IMO fewer (far fewer...) can go from there to get "good" working results in hi-fi.  I consider myself to be looking up at the bottom rung of the electrical knowledge ladder, and to tell the truth I see myself as not much farther "up the ladder" with respect to hi-fi, either, with much to learn and little to "teach".  And I am not being modest here.  The past year has been particularly "enlightening" with respect to exposing to me my own incalculable ignorance.

Re, 185V V2:  I always, eventually, get around to fiddling with operating points in all my active gain circuitry, since this is such an important tool for shaping sound, including the character of the sound.  This gets back to Romy's facination with "plate loading", a rich field of inquiry, indeed, for those at a certain level of comprehension, and the certain road to ruin for the unprepared.  In the case of the ML2s, I am aiming for a sonic matrix that is - in my system - "the best" compromise between harmonics, harmonic integrity and a sort of general sense of FR "continuity" that the ML2s either are or should be particularly famous for, since they are head and shoulders above anything else (I have heard) in this regard.  I have dutifully recorded my findings, which attempt to speak to what is possible, conditioned by my own system's special requirements and its (and my own) limitations.  I will air a personal suspicion, however, that Lamm's "factory settings" are aimed at the people he (correctly) deemed most likely to buy his amps.

Best regards,
Paul S

01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 162
Post ID: 12684
Reply to: 12677
Operating points etc.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul S wrote:
"...the current is actually what one wants to meter out..."


Yes, I know this, I just didn't understand how you were measuring current... I am familiar with Ohm's law, but didn't see where you were getting enough info to "build the equation". Its clear now.

"...Re, 185V V2:  I always, eventually, get around to fiddling with operating points in all my active gain circuitry, since this is such an important tool for shaping sound, including the character of the sound... I will air a personal suspicion, however, that Lamm's "factory settings" are aimed at the people he (correctly) deemed most likely to buy his amps..."

Well its easy enough to twist the potentiometers, sit back and listen... I'd want to make sure I weren't over stressing things down stream of the V1. I'll look into that level of fine tuning once all horns are in place, eating their carrots and peas, and properly installed in a room that really suits them.

Thanks again,

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 163
Post ID: 12686
Reply to: 12684
Keeping It Real (Safe)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Of course, the safe and sane version of "twisting the pots" is to keep Ohm in mind the while with respect to total output (Watts). 

YMMV, but I've found that what I want at this point happens below 54 Watts.

Paul S
01-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 164
Post ID: 12748
Reply to: 12686
Punk Rock
fiogf49gjkf0d
For many years I have habitually "rocked" tubes gently in their sockets (when the equipment is off!) in order to "better establish the electrical connection".  I suppose I have done this hundreds of times with no problems, apart from three fairly recent, serious problems.  The problems were cracked tube bottles in two 5651s and just now on an old 6096 (6AK5).  Oddly, the 5651 failures were barely audible.  I happened to noticed each in its turn had "melted" inside.  OTOH, the 6096 failure was announced by two loud "pops", and I assume one of them was the internal "fast-blow" fuse, since the unit would not produce sound when I replaced the bum 6096.

Looking more closely at the cracked tubes, I see that the glass is pretty thin, albeit it is not nearly so thin where the cracks occurred in every case, on the bottom, in line with a couple of tube pins.

Because the rocking has become a +/- habit, I will have to TRY to remember not to do it now.

Anyway, now you've been warned; rock on at your peril.

Paul S
01-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 165
Post ID: 12749
Reply to: 12748
Do not fix it until it gets broken
fiogf49gjkf0d

To crack the small-pin tubes by jerking them in tube-sockets?  I do not believe in it but you are at your full right to feel that you did it. If you cracked 6AK5 then it will very fast (a few hours) loose the getter on the top of the tube (dark-silverfish residue). If you cracked 5651 tube then you have no Neon (or Krypton or whatever they use) in the tube and it will have ability stabilize voltage.  I guess it will bring some noise as well. Also, I think that if you did somehow cracked the tube by rocking tubes “GENTLY” in their sockets then you realty need to review your definition of gentleness.

Now, and I am not kidding. After this “gentleness” you certainly need to trash the current sockets as you have destroyed them. Initially, when you just felt a need to rock the tubes in the socket you needed to clear the socket and do not do any tubes jerking.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 166
Post ID: 12750
Reply to: 12749
Verifying pin grip of tube sockets
fiogf49gjkf0d
Assuming that by rocking the tubes too aggressively, one might cause the socket to lessen its grip on the pins:
One way to check this might be to break open a set of dead tubes and remove a single pin from each, then hold each pin, one at a time, in small pliers, inserting it into each receptacle of the corresponding socket, verifying that the pin is being "grabbed" with adequate force.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
01-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 167
Post ID: 12752
Reply to: 12750
Not to Defend the Habit
fiogf49gjkf0d
Jessie, another thing is that there does not appear to be an actual  "standard" tube pin diameter for a given species.  Add to this the mediocre initial quality of the Lamm sockets and you have a less than ideal situation to begin with that cannot improve with time.  I noticed and reported quite a while back that I had to bend pins on an otherwise-OK batch of 6N6Ps with thin pins to ensure "sufficient" contact with all pins.  This was soon after I bought the amps, and it was certainly before rocking had time to affect anything.  To further confuse things, I had previously rocked tubes in a dozen amps over 45 years without ever cracking a tube or producing any other overt signs that the practice itself was a bad idea.

To be clearer (but not to seek exoneration), the rocking, though habitual and chronic, is not something I've done often.  Rather, I have done it only when I installed new tubes or while cleaning pins and/or sockets.  So any damage done by me in this case happened pretty fast, with but few occasions of the offending ritual.

However, all Sophistry aside, I think this is a case where the results speak for themselves: The broken tube bottles clearly indicate how "careful" or "gentle" I was (or wasn't...) in the cited instances.  And clearly, at least some of the 5651s and 6069s are vulnerable to the sort of "gentle" treatment to which I subjected them.

Of course the post is meant to be cautionary rather than confused or defensive.  Upon reflection, I should better have said my tube handling has been "deliberate" rather than "careful" or "gentle", since - again - the results speak for themselves.  Speaking for myself, I am going to really try to kick the habit.

Now, to find the effing 1.25A fuse (as opposed to the ubiquitous 1A or 1.5A one can get about anywhere).  'Guess it's another "factory" item...


Best regards,
Paul S
02-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 168
Post ID: 12932
Reply to: 12752
Voltage Question
fiogf49gjkf0d

Does anyone know the voltage the big couping caps actually see?  Yes, I should measure it, but I would rather avoid the drill of opening the amps, propping them up somehow and measuring if someone already knows the answer. Of course, I'm asking in order to get new caps in the correct rating.

Thanks,
Paul S

02-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 169
Post ID: 12934
Reply to: 12932
The coupling caps in ML2?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Does anyone know the voltage the big couping caps actually see?  Yes, I should measure it, but I would rather avoid the drill of opening the amps, propping them up somehow and measuring if someone already knows the answer. Of course, I'm asking in order to get new caps in the correct rating.
They are 400V-450V, I do not remeber exectly. The 6N6P most likely sit at 200V and 6C33C at 170V, so the 400V shall be enough.  The ML2 has double sided board and it might be a bit tricky to solder it.  If I were you then I would not remove the current caps and would not remove the board.  Cut one lead of the current caps in the middle. Then put the new caps in parallel to the uncut lead and to the lead that will be sticking from the board. Do not overheat the sticking leads as it might unsolder them. Be advised that it would take 2-3 weeks a cap to burn in. Also, confirm if ML2 has fist and second stage cap coupled and if it does (most likely) then you need to replace them as well. What cap will you will try to use instead the Lamm’s Cubes, the Duelund?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 170
Post ID: 12936
Reply to: 12934
I could not "see" the Duelund
fiogf49gjkf0d

There are some very interesting moments with the not-so-expensive Sonicap Gen I caps, which I have described in the K&K thread. I will replace the 935s with these.  I am willing to take the chance that the little .033 uF 1000V 950s in my unit are just overrated bypass caps, and I will replace those, too, with the Sonicap Platinum teflons, since I now know this combination from the K&K.

Yes, yes, I know we're not supposed to use the same caps everywhere.  But I am presently thinking that the Sonicaps are simply more "correct" from an electrical standpoint, and I am willing to take a flier on them based on this (as heard, of course).

Good point about the potential for overheating/de-soldering the old cap lead stubs at the thru-holes; I will try to be careful when the time comes.  I have little heat sink clips that I use to divert heat from where it's unwanted.  I was actually thinking I could use my de-soldering gun to simply remove the old cap leads cleanly, but I would indeed be very pissed if I messed this up and wound up having to take the board out to make it right.

Like I confessed a while back, Duelund definitely had me at one point. I was totally hypnotized, ripe for the picking; but insufficient funds curtailed the madness.

Best regards,
Paul S

03-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 171
Post ID: 13111
Reply to: 12684
Bias current; rise during warm up
fiogf49gjkf0d
After swapping all the tubes between the left and right amps, the cycling bias current issue (mentioned here in a previous post) seems to have settled.

I now have another question, which I hope other ML2 users might answer; first the context:

These amps came with two complete sets of tubes; one that had been in use, and one that the seller claimed were new, purchased from Lamm. The tubes did appear to be new (I have the equipment to test them, but have not yet moved it out of storage). For the past 6 months, I've been running the amps with these "new" tubes.

When the amps have been in use all day, I can set the bias current for .31 and everything is fine. The following day, I switch the amps on, and within 15 minutes, the current will have climbed to well above .31 (I just measured .385 for example), and returns to .31 only after the amps have been on for over 2 hours. The climb in current during warm up is quite a bit greater with one amp as compared to the other, but I suspect this to be due to the individual behavior of each V2 tube.

With the "old" tubes installed, I don't remember having to fuss this much with bias current, but it is possible that I've become a bit psychotic since then.

Can anyone using ML2s tell me if their amps behave similarly; that is, do they rise well above .31 during warm up, and if so, is the rise in one V2 as compared to the other approximately equal?

You might be saying to yourself, "why doesn't he answer his own question by simply reinstalling the old set of tubes?". Installation of the "new" set was prompted by a failed V2 tube. I assume that the other old V2 is pretty close to dead, and I don't have an alternate set on hand.

Thanks in advance,

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 172
Post ID: 13112
Reply to: 13111
I wonder why Lamm does it.
fiogf49gjkf0d

You have this behavior with the tube that you run for 6 month? That is strange. The behavior you described (with this amps) is typical for a very fresh new tube but after 20-50 hours  the amplitude of the current raise shall be minimum and and after 100 hours it I pretty much negligible.

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=6140#6140

I did not see a tube that behave as fresh as the new one and I did not see a tube that need 2 hours to stabilize current. It does not mean the do not exist and you might get one. If I were you then I would get a gamma probe and would try to test the tube for radioactivity….

I usually suggest to set your new 6C33C tube for operation of 250mA-270mA, use it for a while and only then set 300mA
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 173
Post ID: 13113
Reply to: 13112
The freaky V2s
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy wrote:
"...I usually suggest to set your new 6C33C tube for operation of 250mA-270mA, use it for a while and only then set 300mA..."

This is what I did; in fact, I've had to leave them set at 250mA so that during warm up they don't go over 310mA. I think I got a hold of a couple of freaky tubes... I will try swapping them with the V1s.

I just poked around on eBay and it seems the 6c33C-B tubes are not so easy to find. There are however plenty of the model 6S33S-V. My understanding is that this is supposed to be a more durable version, intended to better resist vibration... Any opinions as to whether there is a difference in sound?

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 174
Post ID: 13114
Reply to: 13113
6C33C-B vs. 6S33S-V
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:

I just poked around on eBay and it seems the 6c33C-B tubes are not so easy to find. There are however plenty of the model 6S33S-V. My understanding is that this is supposed to be a more durable version, intended to better resist vibration... Any opinions as to whether there is a difference in sound?

Jessie, 6C33C-B and 6S33S-V are identical, in fact the very same tubes. The 6C33C-B is Cyrillic writing and 6S33S-V is just Western transcript of the very same tube. It is like feeling that “cat” and “chat” are different animals...

http://www.shinjo.info/frank/vs.html

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-09-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 175
Post ID: 13118
Reply to: 13114
So if S=C & V=B
fiogf49gjkf0d

That's good news.

ТХАНКС !

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #: 176
Post ID: 13807
Reply to: 12936
ML2 cap substitution
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today I replaced the problematic pair of Chinese 7 pin sockets on one of my ML2s.  It looked like they were replaced at least once before, and that my job is at least the second set of replacement sockets, so three total counting the OEM pair.  There were burns, loose, stiff and dulled wires, and other signs of arching near the sockets.  I believe these were the cause of burning through a couple V2s, and the wildly dynamic plate voltage readings.  When the bottom was open, I took a closer look at the pair of Cube 935s, bypassed by Cube 950s.  I believe these are NOT coupling caps, and are actually filter caps.  The coupling cap is the blue rectangular MKP to the left of the yellow Cubes.  Of course there is no guarantee - I don't have a ML2 schematic.  But anyone considering substituting caps inside the ML2 (as I was) may want to double check before pulling the trigger on purchasing new, exotic caps.
06-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 177
Post ID: 13808
Reply to: 13807
Schem-o?
fiogf49gjkf0d

One ironic thing about the ML2s is the contrast between the fantastic workmanship and the mostly average parts. Of course, the sockets are plain crappy, and I suffered plenty with them until I started using the dielectric grease. I have been too lazy to replace the sockets or the caps in mine, which are obviously the originals. And anyone looking at anything I ever put in there will be able to tell immediately that my work is not the original...

The absence of a schematic makes even the prospect of working on this thing scary. That big oiler in there looks downright dangerous!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love to have the ML2 schematic.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 178
Post ID: 13813
Reply to: 13808
Absolutely bogus statement.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
One ironic thing about the ML2s is the contrast between the fantastic workmanship and the mostly average parts. 
  
Where did you see the “mostly average parts” in ML2, Paul, come on have some sanity and go over your craziness with the sockets. You bought ML2 use and it is possible that it was flooded before or stored in very humid environment, so your sockets got rusty. Go over it already! Are you planning to write about your sockets problems for the next 15 years? Dos you feel that you are a bit fixated on the subject? To make you to feel good let proclaim that the horrible Lamm put in there the horrible sockets. Let accept it as a fact. So what is next? To keep bitching about sockets in the way how you keep bitching about the PP2000? Is it stimulating for you? If you found many thousands dollars to buy ML2 then find another few hundred to let a technician to replace the sockets and go over it. To make the sweeping claim that “ML2s is the contrast between the fantastic workmanship and the mostly average parts” is ridicules in my view.
 
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 179
Post ID: 13814
Reply to: 13807
V1/V2 Replacement sockets
fiogf49gjkf0d
skushino wrote:
"...Today I replaced the problematic pair of Chinese 7 pin sockets on one of my ML2s... I believe these were the cause of burning through a couple V2s, and the wildly dynamic plate voltage readings..."

I too have fluctuating V2 plate current, forcing me to run the tubes at around 250mA in order to ensure that it doesn't creep above the recommended max of .31; I am hoping new tube sockets will solve this issue.

What sockets did you use?

I would like to know details of and where to buy the "Japanese Exotic" sockets Romy mentions here:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=6140#6140

"...There were burns, loose, stiff and dulled wires, and other signs of arching near the sockets..."

As it is not always obvious from the outward appearance of components, it would be very useful to know which, if any might be subject to damage as a result of an arcing or failed V2 tube.

While the amps are open, it would seem logical to replace all the sockets (those for the smaller tubes as well).

One "advantage" of the cheap sockets used throughout Lamm gear is that they can be easily, purposely broken (carefully crushed with pliers), thereby facilitating their removal from the board; once broken, it is no longer necessary to simultaneously heat several soldered points.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 180
Post ID: 13815
Reply to: 13807
"Filter" vs. RC?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Skushino, I'm afraid I posted that last when I was distracted. I admit I did not think twice about the MKP. I've only seen that style in fairly small values. What is the MKP's value, and why do you think it's "the" coupler, while the 'Cubes are else? What do you think the 'Cubes filter? I think I mentioned before that I could not read the traces when I opened the amps. I pegged the 935 for the output RC mostly because of its value and physical location, and I pegged the 950 for the RC bypass cap for the same reasons. Mightn't there be several couplers in a 3-stage amp? I hope one day to get a bright, skinny light between those boards, to try to backlight the traces, so I can read them without taking the boards apart.

FWIW, IMO, people should not play with their gear unless they have their own "good" reasons for doing so. I do have good reasons to swap the tube sockets; but - once again - I am simply curious about the caps.

Romy, the fact is, I have seen better parts but never have I seen better workmanship, so that is hardly a "bogus statement". And if you read the post again, perhaps you will notice that I was not - for once - posting just to bitch about the sockets, but I am primarily responding to Skushino to mention that to date I have merely cleaned the corroded sockets and then nursed them along with di-electric grease. You might remember for sure, but when I read your own post on the subject of lousy sockets, I thought I might know who the friend was (J?), and I wondered if perhaps my amps were once stored under conditons very similar to the friend's corroded amps. I don't think non-operation is always such a big plus for electronics unless they are stored appropriately. I have found old, stored gear with the tube pins pretty much fused to the sockets by corrosion, along with ruined wipers, etc. Careful regular use and maintenance seems to "preserve" the gear about as well as anything. As for the sockets, I'm basically over it, and I am "dealing" with it, but they are average to begin with, at best, and that's that.

Best regards,
Paul S
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  A quest for a better SET...  Still, there is something in it....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     3  44770  02-05-2005
  »  New  The Silence of the Lamms!..  Well, Lamms are not exactly fun anymore. ...  Audio Discussions  Forum     7  53764  06-12-2005
  »  New  Romy, how does the original ML2 sound in regards to acc..  Modification of Lamm’s SET...  Audio Discussions  Forum     5  46015  06-20-2005
  »  New  Lamm Industries: a special interview with a special com..  I do not think so but I migh be wrong....  Audio News Forum     94  951346  09-18-2005
  »  New  Lamm hybrids: M1.2 vs. Lamm M1.1..  Lamm hybrids: M1.2 vs. Lamm M1.1...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  21545  12-12-2007
  »  New  The short "6C33C Survival Guide"...  Ac filament.....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     20  252344  12-18-2007
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