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01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 161
Post ID: 12820
Reply to: 12815
Reframing Attic Ceiling
fiogf49gjkf0d

I was consulted with people who know and they told me that there is absolutely no problem even if I need to have some of trusses to clear my way. Apparently there are special people who could perform a section of the attic reframing, so it would not be a problem. This news opened a door to my absolute exuberance and I am not suicidal anymore.

I think if a mortgage lenders will not be pissed that my grangrangrangrangrangrangrangrandmother was doing something that they do not what her to do 250 years back then I will close this house. Audio-wise, from what I have seen it is the most exciting and perspective listening room I have observed since the last July. In fact from many perspectives this room is near perfect. Sure, I would like the cathedral room to be 3-4 feet longer. I would like the floor of the cathedral room not to be suspended.  Still, I think those imperfection are workable and I might even learn in future how to convert those disadvantages into advantages, I have a good record to do it.

Perhaps from the ritualistic-superstition perspective I do a mistake thinking about the house’s modification before I close it but integrating my listening room into the home where I live is a big objective of mine, so I would like to have a clear vision of where I am going.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 162
Post ID: 12821
Reply to: 12820
Vibration induced resonances
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

I somehow feel that you should look into the vibration induced resonances that those rooftop horns might create.

I'm not really familiar with the all-wood building techniques used in that side of the Atlantic but I have a hunch that unless you either decouple the horns from the structural frames or creat a new free-standing structure the room will rattle somewhat, a like a giant resonant speaker.
Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 163
Post ID: 12822
Reply to: 12821
This is an interesting one.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 tuga wrote:
I somehow feel that you should look into the vibration induced resonances that those rooftop horns might create.

I'm not really familiar with the all-wood building techniques used in that side of the Atlantic but I have a hunch that unless you either decouple the horns from the structural frames or creat a new free-standing structure the room will rattle somewhat, a like a giant resonant speaker.

I was thinking about it myself. I do not know if horn will be able to create non-air transduced resonances that house structure will be able to pick up – I will be able to say it only when the horns installed. It might be a good idea to decouple the horns from structure; it might be not even too hard to do as it sound. Still I feel that hard-couple would be more productive. I think to tight the horns to trusses, taking advantage if the trusses’ mass and thickness.  In fact I am condensing to make horn a bit lighter then I would initially consider and to use the mass, the firmness and the steadiness of the roof frame to couple horns. It sure needs to be more analyzed.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 164
Post ID: 12823
Reply to: 12820
What would be interesting in this room…
fiogf49gjkf0d

…is to see how the Red Wall will load the room.  Following the context of my Imbedded Macro-Positioning subject:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421

it would be very interesting to see how the out from the read wall will relate to the acoustic pressure at the listening location. I would love it to be in “hot spot” and to get +6-10dB but you would never know. I did not bring RTA to the inspection and I do not know how that room works. If I lucky then in addition to 6-8dB of hyperbolic gain I will be able to get 6-8dB of room gain then it would be phenomenal.  15dB gain from 99dB sensitive driver it would be fantastic and I will be able to power it with 2W (I still intend to power it with 6C33C).

Also,  and this is the subject of my great interests, I wonder if there is any way to use the cathedral opening of the ceiling as a continuation of the horn. If I would be able to introduce the hone mouth at the perimeter of the cathedral ceiling then the cathedral opening would be a continuation of the horn curve. What I am thinking to try it to put a divider of 3-5 feet long in the middle of the cathedral ceiling axis. This divider would set a transition between the horn mouth and the cathedral pitch. If I am lucky then I might even go away with ¼ horn – I need to measure and to calculate the rate of the halt- cathedral opening. The picture below depicts the idea.

Cathedral_loading.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 165
Post ID: 12824
Reply to: 12823
Decoupling the Horns and Horn Hell
fiogf49gjkf0d
Indeed, if the horns are doing their job then there will be some very powerful vibrating going on up there, for better and for worse.

Decoupling the horns would require that the structures of the horns themselves and their support members have solid paths to ground that do not involve the structure of the house to a significant degree.  Think about this in this situation.  Unless there were some sort of "outboard" structure, a la' Pompidou, this would require access inside the outside wall at the driver(s) end and it would ikely involve re-building that wall, along with attendant wiring, plumbing, HVAC, headers, beams, etc. to make way for the horn's support/path(s) to ground.

Now, go through the same mental drill for the "red wall".  It would be a real challenge to come up with separate ground paths for the roof/ceiling junction and the horns where they join in the "red wall".

Decoupled or not, it would have to be very difficult - practically impossible - to model and predict total effective response.  So, how does one really plan effectively?  I have to say that this is where the large horns I have heard were all stuck, in the eternal integration/development stages.

I keep thinking that if it's my money, and my tiny brain, then I wind up using large sealed woofer enclosures and spending the considerable savings on otherwise tuning the house, itself.

Paul S
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 166
Post ID: 12825
Reply to: 12824
Bagel Sandwich Roof horn
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am not and expert in wood construction,  all the building we do around here is brick and mortar, but, If you get the Horn wall close to the roof you could fill that space up with that spray expanding foam.  The side of the Mid bass horn will be stiff enough, I would guess you could not make it less than 3/4" thick,  you shouldn't have a big vibration problem,  and in the case you have it you could reinforce it where necessary once it shows its weakness.  I am using a 30 hz tapped horn at the moment and it sounds pretty good,  I get excellent dynamics with almost no effort on the horn,  one side was disconnected and I couldn't notice it by touching the horn sides, I had to stick my head in the hole to notice it (of course the sound stage was wrong) but my point is I have not a big vibrating surface with them,  and they do rattle the windows in my brick and mortar house...Now if you wanted to make a concrete floor on your new house I guess you would only need to reinforce the floor from the bottom with some of the methods already discussed here,  and then just place a thick wire mesh on top of the wooden floor and pour concrete on top of that.  
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 167
Post ID: 12826
Reply to: 12825
Tapped Out
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sarurntube, I am quite curious about the mysterious tapped horns these days.  What are the physical dimensions and power requirements of your tapped horns?  Are they 1/4 or 1/8 wave horns?  Do you use a FR amp or a sub-only amp to drive them?  Do you bias the tapped horn amp(s)?  What frequency range do they cover?  How many dB down at 30 Hz?  Would you say you use them in their optimal range?  Are they any easier to integrate than other LF options?

You say yours do not vibrate.  Do I only imagine reading recently that one guy said he could not put enough weight on his tapped horns to keep them from hopping around?

Too many reasons to get into it, but pouring concrete inside a typical wood sub-floored US house is not practical.


Paul S
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 168
Post ID: 12827
Reply to: 12826
How about silent blocks?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul,

I wonder if some silent blocks or hydraulic engine mounts wouldn't be fit for such a decoupling as they're design to absorb low frequency vibrations:

http://www.adina.com/cet03.shtml

http://www.openpr.com/print/31310/Silicone-instead-of-natural-rubber-first-silicone-engine-mount-proves-itself-in-series-use.html

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 169
Post ID: 12829
Reply to: 12826
Well TH...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, I am no expert on tapped horns but I think the main (40 year old) principle is that you join the back wave of the driver with the front wave, now in order to have the 2 wave fronts meet, the back wave should travel a certain distance depending on the frequency range they should cover.  They are good for a range of two octaves,  when the back wave meets the front wave, both waves sum at the design frequency, and they annul themselves at the opposite wave length,  so say my tapped horn goes down to 30 hz,  it means it is designed to meet both waves at 60 hz, they will annul at 120 hz and at 30 hz,  so this means they are good from 120 hz down to 30 hz.  Some how the drivers barely move (I guess because both sides of the driver are loaded).  Mine are about 1.8 meters high and 40 cm X 60 cm foot print, each one takes almost a whole sheet of 3/4" mdf, so they are not light.  They use the very heavy Beyma 12LX60 driver,  the design is readily available on the Diyaudio huge thread of collaborative Tapped Horn project.  I made them as a myth buster scheme, I was using at the time a couple of 12" drivers per side and a 15 inch servo controlled subwoofer per side and I thought they couldnt be beat... I like the TH better.   I get bass I never heard before way out of their "optimal range" they are fast and clear and very easy to integrate,  I drive them with a pair of 12 watt PP mono tube amps with a Pllxo at 150 hz.    My room is 14 ft X 21.5 ft with a height of 9 ft, again, brick and concrete so maybe that helps, they barely vibrate move and the ground starts shaking! The best way to describe them would be explosive! I will take some freq. measurements. I am sure the concrete idea is terrible, here we weld rods all around and pour concrete to everything, we have passed 6 degree earthquakes without a blimp...
01-31-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 170
Post ID: 12830
Reply to: 12827
Differential Movement
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ric, that's pretty sophisticated stuff.  I never tried hydraulic damping mounts, but I think the theoretical idea with the drivers is to keep them from moving at all, rather than using mounts that accept and convert energy in order to dissipate it.

Saturntube, I suppose I will have to try the effing TH myself at some point.  But you did not say if you had to apply the exponential power to get lower frequencies, and I forgot to ask if you'd tried SET with it.  I generally think of the "heavy" drivers as requiring more power.  But I suppose the truth is that  one can only get so far with flea power.

Best regards,
Paul S.
02-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 171
Post ID: 12835
Reply to: 12830
Gain and bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
I dont want to hack this thread into TH, I tried them with sub-amps 150 watts and they didnt sound good,  but I was using a passive preamp, when I added an active preamp things started to get better, now with 12 watts and a a lot of gain, bass is amazing,  I guess gain is more important than final wattage.  Any way the drivers are 98 db efficient and the horn doubles that since we are using both sides of the wave.  If I like TH, which indeed have a small mouth,  I think a Real Mid bass horn like this thread exposes must be to die for....  Anyone has some sort of comparison between compression drivers against cone (dynamic) drivers in a this huge mid bass horns, or even upper bass horns.     All I heard are this guys from Germany with the out of reach expensive GOTO compression bass drivers and Johan with the JBL 2490 MF driver in his upperbass horns.   Anyone with WE 555 drivers?
02-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 172
Post ID: 12836
Reply to: 12835
I do not see a lot of interesting solution out there.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Saturntube wrote:
Anyone has some sort of comparison between compression drivers against cone (dynamic) drivers in a this huge mid bass horns, or even upper bass horns.     All I heard are this guys from Germany with the out of reach expensive GOTO compression bass drivers and Johan with the JBL 2490 MF driver in his upperbass horns.   Anyone with WE 555 drivers?

Saturntube,

I kind of have an attitude toward all of those “out of reach expensive compression bass drivers”. The drivers are insanely important but the quality of the drivers does not eliminate a need to properly use them. Did you see a lot of properly made midbass horns? Did you see then properly integrated into playback? Did you see them time-aligned? Did you see them appropriately powered and crossovered? I have a feeling, and have many evidences, that in the cases people “admire horn bass sound” they are in reality “impressed” by driver’s time misalignment. I did model that sound and I do know what I am taking about. The proper “bass horn sound” is very interesting thing and in my estimate mostly not known by people. Even when people do construct more or less intelligent design then they run the midbass-horns too hard. Honestly, I do not impressed with WE, GOTO, RCA, or God know what else exotic drivers. I am impressed with exotic, well-indented and smart solutions. I do not see a lot of them out there. There are some interesting moves in different installation I saw but very few of them from my point of view do implement the midbass horns as interesting/offensive as they could be.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 173
Post ID: 12842
Reply to: 12822
My olde listening room.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Sitting in my couch, smoking my cigar, playing Shostakovich quartets and studying my new P&S agreement I discover that it will be sad to lose this listening room. This room is small but such a capable and able for such such intimate sound that I truly love this room. I also know this room so well that I can do with it virtually anything. It will be sad to lose it, not truly sad but it will be some sorrow in it. Well, I guess it is a part of this life…

Anyhow, to if everything go smooth then I will be starting to disassemble this installation on February 16-18. Some local audio folks have asked me to play for them the thing before it will be gone for good. It might be better at the new place – I presume it will be, but I do like what it does here – who know it might be never like this again…

Meanwhile, I am wondering if my attorney could put some language in the contingency of my Purchase and Sale Agreement that would allow reversing the deal if in 6 months my listening room will not sound acceptably. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montepilot


Boston, MA.
Posts 42
Joined on 12-13-2007

Post #: 174
Post ID: 12843
Reply to: 12842
Keep ye olde room!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I suggest you keep the old room in tact.  Continue to rent the place maintaing it as a second listening room in the city.  Do not move any equipment.  Koshka may not like living in suburbs and become more cantankerous than she already is.  Start with all new equipment in the suburbs.  Start business to teach morons 6 levels of listening benefits in present small listening room.  Now backbay apartment is tax deductible and I don't have to travel so far to borrow equipment and ask dumb questions.  Its a win win situation.  Yes?

rgs.
montepilot


"It's like an act of murder; you play with the intent to commit something"--Duke Ellington
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 175
Post ID: 12844
Reply to: 12842
Fair Warning
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, I don't know what your plans are, or how extensive, but it sounds like you are ramping up.  FWIW, I do not jest when I advise strongly against living in a house while you remodel it.  It is not "an adventure"; it is miserble.  If there's any way around it, do not do it.

You have been warned.

Best regards,
Paul S
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 176
Post ID: 12845
Reply to: 12843
Who know how it will go.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 montepilot wrote:
Koshka may not like living in suburbs and become more cantankerous than she already is. 

This is actually a big problem. At her age to change her home/territory might be too dramatic and too painful.  In here she has a million of small habits, one is more idiotic then another, and I love each and single of them. I do not how stressful for her will be to lose her home. And I am a bit afraid that she might experience trauma.

Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Saturntube
Posts 24
Joined on 07-08-2005

Post #: 177
Post ID: 12846
Reply to: 12842
Progress
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have just installed my whole speaker system at a friends house, 5 way horn loaded,  it was getting in my way for some tests I wanted to run (Tapped Horns, exponential 180 hz horn) I already like it better!  Change is good.
Koshka will love to have more room to play in....
02-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lbjefferies7
Southern California
Posts 49
Joined on 01-11-2008

Post #: 178
Post ID: 12847
Reply to: 12842
Wise Warning
fiogf49gjkf0d
"FWIW, I do not jest when I advise strongly against living in a house while you remodel it.  It is not "an adventure"; it is miserble.  If there's any way around it, do not do it."
Absolutely true.  I've done it where I live and it sucked.  I am doing it right now as the electrical system in the shop gets replaced and improved.  I had to move my system and everything sounds wrong now.  I miss the over-sized room with the comfortable resonances and nice reverberation.  It seems that everything about my system now has to be changed...Freaking Everything.  The stress is enough to kill.  If it truly is, Koshka may end up eating you with some kind of sick pleasure in the recrudescence of her feline roots.
If you dare move at all, I would consider hiring the best local piano movers to transport your system.  Household movers are fine for beds and couches, but nothing else.  Call piano technicians...the dealers are just plain lazy idiots.
LBJ


I'm not interested in having an orchestra sound like itself. I want it to sound like the composer. Leonard Bernstein
02-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 179
Post ID: 12848
Reply to: 12847
Moving, remodeling, building, etc….
fiogf49gjkf0d

Thanks guys for advice but I have my own view on the subject.  The new listing room if it goes through has many very good features that I do appreciate very much. Even the integration of the room with the rest of the house is absolutely perfect, exactly how as I would like it to have. In context of this thread it is important that the room I looks like capable to support that notion of mine: time-alight 40hz horn that is not visible in the room - and that is very important to me. However, I am not planning to do anything with the room before I move or after I move.

If I get the house then intend to move in and peaty much live in there for a while, setting up a replica of my current playback. I would anticipate that it will hate for me a couple months to get an idea what my new room will be able to show off sonically and perhaps a couple of other months  to master that room, might be more. So, I will not undertake any midbass-horn project before I would know exactly what I will be getting in that room. So, in the best case the midbass-horn project might kick in summer or perhaps when the summer heat will subside.

I do plan to have 2 small changes in the listening room but it will be day-long simple projects…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 180
Post ID: 12850
Reply to: 12848
Attic horns: L/R Separation
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About the proposed attic-mounted 40Hz horns:

Is there an elephant in the room?

I'm speaking of the proximity of two horns, relative to each other, and the possible consequence; namely they may end up working as a sort of mono horn... A situation further exacerbated by the fact that the cathedral ceiling will reflect each horn's output toward the center of the room. 

A possible partial solution to both issues might be to extend the vertical, central dividing plane mentioned earlier (and with other objectives in mind), much further into the listening space.

If it were me, I would build the horns independent of the house, and place them on the ground, in the room directly under the attic location, one against each side wall.

Yes this would hinder human access to the room off to the side (likely the kitchen), but as you are a cat, this is of no concern; at worst, you may have to punch a hole somewhere creating an alternate path to that room.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
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