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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  1553143  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1268728  07-26-2009
11-13-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 141
Post ID: 22836
Reply to: 22823
Very very nice.
fiogf49gjkf0d
It took for me a few weeks to put up a new direct radiator Midbass channels. Each channel has 2 of Vitavox 15/40 drivers is seals 2 cu foot enclosures. No filtration of any kind on speaker level and Vitavoxes juts are driver from Milq LF channel that has first order 78Hz low pass filter. You know, I just connected everything and I am surprised how nice it is and how accidently the sensitivity of the Vitavox tandem match the gain of Macondo rest channels. I did not do measurements yet but the Vitavox tandem shall do ~50Hz. I think it will go a bit lower as the driver soft out but I am not sure that I need them to do lower as I have that 50Hz room mode. If everything will be as I plan then I will have 0dB flat at 50Hz with my midbass and I will have the whole 6-driver line array to form ULF that I will probably put at 20Hz on transition slope. The funny part is that the playback is so nicely positioned in the room that it swallowed two big 20” by 40” boxes and they are not even visible among the forest of the rest Macondo. 
 
Subjectively the Vitavox direct radiator Midbass sound surprisingly fine. There is no “glow” that I had with my horns but I will get other interesting effects when I put my ULF in use. The articulation, tonal and contrast integrity of the direct mounted Vitavox is very fine. I think I do prefer the dynamic transience in open air better but it would be impossible to have a practical channel with open baffle.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-13-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,071
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 142
Post ID: 22837
Reply to: 22836
OB (etc.) at Midbass
fiogf49gjkf0d
You have said that you want to keep the channel relatively small, and sealed is one way to do it.  I don't know your Vitavox, but a larger ("IB") box might have more of the dynamic transcience you mention, and it probably would not be a step back in terms of the other qualities you've mentioned. Others may be scratching their heads, but, as I reported here, I have recently heard "FR" OB sounding OK down to maybe 50Hz, and it was done with electronic wizardry, along with the amp power to push the curve.  By the way, with 3 little kids, it amazes me that you've gotten this far so quickly!

Best regards,
Paul S
11-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 143
Post ID: 22850
Reply to: 22837
Theoretically possible?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I do not like any none-sealed enclosure. From my perspective IB box is also sealed and I am not against it. It is not about the sealing of encloses but about absence of contra-phase feedback that is always there in any other topologies. There are many scenarios how the baffle could be opened in one way or another and it is kind of ironic that the quality of the sound (with right driver) above the baffle cut off frequency might be very good. The problem that almost all open baffle devotees fail to understand that somewhere a baffle ends and within the octave where is does an acoustic shortage take place. The acoustic shortage itself is survivable and might be even pleasurable. The problem begins if you want to add an additional channel under the acoustic shortage. I never heard any good result of it and I do not think that I is theoretically possible


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-16-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,071
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 144
Post ID: 22851
Reply to: 22850
So True
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, the "bottom drops out" of the "IB" depending on whether or how it's "opened", and one way or another, the cabinet may or may not "assist" the driver at some point. This is where one has to decide how much to ask from the particular driver or drivers. It seems like 50Hz is not too much to ask from some 15" drivers, and one "should" have some options, including IB or "modified IB", that best allow a given driver to "sing". With a fairly large box, it seems like there can be less "contribution" from either "stored energy" or "released energy" than there is from  "strategically released", vented boxes, for sure. Of course, in theory, a typical sealed box simply "eats" the energy that goes into the smaller box, and there "is no penalty" from the cabinet. Too bad about driver membranes. Sure, it has to do with the particular driver, the particulars of the box, the amp or amps, and the room, not to mention system integration and personal preference. There are usually problems with adding significant deep bass under any musical mid-bass, if only because a new level of energy is required, and the extra power often requires a different approach than the rest of the system. I think most of the old IB speakers that people associate with the designation never had anything under them!

Best regards,
Paul S
11-27-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 145
Post ID: 22866
Reply to: 22779
This kid has a strange genes or “Papa, how to measure twins impedance?”.
fiogf49gjkf0d



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
oxric
Posts 183
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #: 146
Post ID: 22868
Reply to: 22866
Are they Brucknerised yet?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

That's a great photo and so funny. Your children are just so adorable. 

I do wonder though. Whilst Thomas seems to rather enjoy the multiple wonders of operating dad's multimeter, the little twins look like they are ready to pull the plug and say no more Bruckner until we have left for college...Enjoy the good times.

regards
Rakesh
04-02-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 147
Post ID: 23093
Reply to: 22459
7 moths and one event...
The twins were born in mid of august last year. Since then I had time and strength to finicky with my playback here and there. It is not set ups up to my standard yet and the playback is not properly imbedded into my new listening room. The people who know me know how important it is and do know that it take some time even if one know what he is doing. Still with all randomness of Sound in my room yesterday took place in a way an extraordinary event. I actually spent an hour sitting in my comfy chair and juts enjoying the music. It was the last movement of Bruckner 8 and I started as target listening after I just connected my ULF. And then it got me and it was quite wonderful ride. Believe me or not it was first “no worry” time spending in front of my playback since mid-august last year. 
 
So, aside from the music what I observed in audio. The musical events were not time aligned. It has nothing to do with channels time alignment but rather with musical phrases were not presented with proper timing. Usually it happens because the R and L of ULF channels are reversed but they were not. I do not know what is going on. It feels like there are to recording playing at the same time and one is offset time wise. So, far I do not know what is going on but I think I do need to calibrate the playback before move further.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-04-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 148
Post ID: 23094
Reply to: 23093
The next day
The last night I “locked” Thomas to watch Masha and Bear in my office and spent some time with playback trying to answers a few questions in my head.
   
First, I needed to discover what was the source of the ridicules double-sound that I experienced another day. Doing more listening I realized that my overall system balance moved to right channel. I went to check the Macondo calibration (gain by individual channel) and very quick realized that it was criminally off. Apparently someone, I do think that it was Thomas as neither my wife nor cleaning ladies allow to touch amplifiers, turned each single knob of both Melquiades. The worth thing was that that Thomas max out the Injection Channels at both amps, what a little rag rat! I remember all calibrations with no measurement (count clicks on step attenuators) and as I put the Macondo back to a proper working order I did get a nice result. 

 
Second is that I still not clear how to deal with my video vs audio dilemma. As the way how it is setup now I might play audio or video via Macondo or via a crap alternative SS pilot playback that I made available (4 ugly Cambridge Sound satellite speakers and Sunfire sub). All of it driven from preamp, so the connection is not a problem. I use the pilot sound to play sports on the big screen for friends (I do not watch sports). The sound is very ugly, plus it is cold-running SS setup. A few times wify and me sit to watch some films and she was explicitly complaining that “sound was not beautiful”. Trust me, with my MASS-grown wife, raised upon the principles of extreme-left political correctness it meant a lot of expressed negativism…   

So, I was wondering last night if it possible to make my pilot playback a bit more palatable. It was Yamaha B2 and I was trying Dunlavy II and Celestion 600 that I had sitting in basement. Bothe speaker did deliver survivable result in small rooms before but in context of my current, relatedly large room it was very bad. The proper solution would be to drag my Cetla 91 from the basement but Cetla 91 are large. I can accommodate Cetla AND Macondo and the rest playback together within 22 feet but it will be not elegant and I would like not to do it. So, I am kind of at lost. I have an idea to compliment 4 ugly Cambridge Sound satellite speakers and Sunfire sub with own upper midrange channel (and I have plenty of it in basement). I think it will make it a bit friendlier. I have the leftover Macondo’s MiniMe’s little bass tower and it might do. 

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=9564 
 
I have no idea how it will work when I will drive it very hard to fill the whole room…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-04-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 149
Post ID: 23095
Reply to: 23094
I don't understand the video problem. . .
. . . because I haven't seen the setup. All in the same room? (No opera room?) Why can't the main system be used? Etc. etc.
04-04-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 150
Post ID: 23096
Reply to: 23095
Choose your poisons
 clarkjohnsen wrote:
. . . because I haven't seen the setup. All in the same room? (No opera room?) Why can't the main system be used? Etc. etc.

Yep, they are in the same room. No opera room anymore. The reason why I would like do not use the main system all time is because the mains system is 14 amplifiers and 12 of them are tubes. The heat and longentivity are a factors for sure. Plus the glowing tubes attract the kids attention of we are not in a room. What I am saying is that the integrated “opera room” is not opera room anymore. In the opera room we mostly watch some movies, musical programs like concerts and operas. In our new listening room the projector is being used for many other activities. Amy’s dad sometime watches football in there, Tomas watches his cartons and there are a lot of other happenings that do not need to have a full Macondo-Milq are running. During those activities is it nice to have a SS playback running with just OK sound. Stop by, you will see how it feels, it is in face a very nice both video and audio room. I do not have yet the sound in here up to my former standards but in your case I can compensate it with Glenlivet 1972 :-) 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-05-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 289
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 151
Post ID: 23115
Reply to: 23096
Thank you
A very reasonable explanation -- it's a whole-family room.
04-06-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 152
Post ID: 23120
Reply to: 23094
It is very nice.
It is ended a very nice. Today I have calibrated the playback, fine the right phasing for the channels and figure out how to integrate them. The direct radiator midbass runs remarkably flat to the rest in the system. Juts 2 15 Vitavox drivers loaded in parallel against Milq bass channels give the absolutely same sensitivity as the rest of Macondo. There is absolutely no gain adjustment necessary. What a lucky thing! I do feel that I might very slightly tock the upper knee of the midbass chela with a 9mH coil at 150Hz. The ULF does very well and I think I have extra 3-4dB to spare, it is always nice to have extra gain in bass, and thankfully I have LPADs at the amp entrance. The overall result, even with slightly long tail at midbass is nice. I still not sure where to seat and how to listen it but overall the playback is officially back to the business.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 153
Post ID: 23124
Reply to: 23120
Great day
 Today I spent quite a number of hours listening the new playback. As comfortable I am with playback response there are a few aspects that I do not like.

1)      I do not have enough gain and I would like the damn thing to be slightly louder
2)      The imaging is UGLY, this nice holographic effect that we all so love is there but in a quite unpleasant way, at least not in the way how I accustomed.
3)      There is some odd vertical vectoring that should not be there.
4)      I can’t figure out where is the listening spot. The better system setup the more distinctive advancements in sweat spot should be.  I am sliding my listening chair back and forth for good 3 feet and I do not see the hot spot.
5)      The quantitative frequency response is there but the playback does not “breathe” on its own. The sound is labored and forced.
6)      The seductiveness of the sound is probably the worst I had for years… 

So, I begun to move the speakers. I mean really move them, more than 3 feet forwards and I think Macondo read the back wall too much. Amy was screaming that room is becoming too small but I guess she need to deal with it. As the Macondo moved to the mid of the room the imaging begun to blossom. I changed the configuration and layout of midbass and cross it way more aggressive then I though at 85Hz. Keeping moving the Macondo I got a lot of things addressed. I do not have now that super acute ability to relate the spacer positioning with very fine aspects of imaging. I use to have it but during the last 2-3 year of kids journey some of my sensitively get weakened. It is OK, I will pick it up back, I juts need Thomas stop playing his damn xylophone while I am listening and Charley do not scream like a wounded in ass hyena. I know that the things I deal with take time to understand myself, but I did have a very good kicked off session today and I am very enthusiastic with the progress I did today.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-08-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 154
Post ID: 23126
Reply to: 23124
Macondo and wife satisfaction.
Amy last night delivered the most brutal insult of my playback I have heard for years. Usually I very much like when stupid internet audio with audio IQ leas size of own shoe to “criticize” my playback. This is real fun to hear them and it is a real fun to mock their uninformed stupidity. I also like when people I care criticize” my sound. It is always educational to hear another perspective. In case of my wife her very minor, not even criticism but a request, was absolutely devastating and hurt my ego a lot. 
 
So, here is what happened. Amy is playing with Boston Philharmonic this week, it is Mahler Second in Symphony Hall. Last night as I was moving Macondo around the room as I get more interesting result she came and we did some listening together. She asked me to play different Resurrection interpretations that I like, I picked a few and among then there was one Japanese recording that happened to have very little compression and relatively low recording volume. So, to play it Macondo/Milq were in max gain. As we start to listen the Scherzo Amy asked to get more volume. I was staying there, flipping my eyes and said that it is all that I have and I can’t do more. “it is shame”, Amy said. Fuck!!! I felt so bad. I am OK to lay down 1250 “audio professionals” and to convince them that they are idiot from birth but I can’t handle my Kitty dese to have a few dB more volume when a playback in unity gain. 
 
It is kind of said and pathetic that I feel this way but it is what it is… With all humorlessness of the situation I think it does exposes a cretinism that for a large room a gain or two stager amplification might not be sufficient. Milq is perfectly made to have a balance between gain and power. I might get rid of my Active Placette (theoretically and I can’t go it in reality) and get a preamp with gain. As now I output max 4.5V to MIlq and I still have my driver stage and output stage in A1. If I pump much more voltage into Milq then the amp will go to class A2 and my indirect heated tubes will not handle well grid currents. So, I am kind of wondering where I stay with it. I think I can have up to 5.5V at Milq input. My PhonoStage can give I think 6V and it is always enough, kind of fuck the class A2:-)! I might have an additional active preamp and to activate it ONLY with low level recordings. This sounds like a good idea to have handy to stop wife wiling and me not able to…
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-13-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 155
Post ID: 23145
Reply to: 23126
A truly peaceful feeling.
I pulled from a basement Dunleavy SCIII and plugged them as a Pilot speaker’s driver by Yamaha B2. They are so nice! I would not use them foe complex classical music as they are a bit shallow and confused but for TV repertoire they are just perfect. They are soft and palatable with small footprint, I like them. Also, decided to decrease the amount of ULF drivers per channel from 6 to 4. I think 8 drivers all together is fine for my room, concerning that I cross at 20 Hz and on transition slope. The idea to go for 12 driver was to see if it was enough and do not have a dedicated Midbass channel.  Since the bass towers went back to be pure ULF then 8 drivers will do fine.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-06-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 156
Post ID: 23284
Reply to: 22459
Macondo listening distance.
On July 4 I had a good listening session for a few hours. Not frequently I have the luxury like this with 3 small kids. I was thinking critical about the sound I was getting, even though the playback was deal cold after a 3 weeks not playing.  To thinking out the sonic result I was getting and extrapolating in my head the differences I would be getting if I move the speakers in different directions (I know very well how Macondo topology response to a room) I come to the very same strange conclusion that I has been telling to myself for years: the huge Macondo is a near field acoustic system. 
 
My current room is very flexible and I might locate the right and left channels as wide as 18 feet apart. For sure it will dictate the listening distance and the toeing the speaker’s axis. I know all possible combinations available in there and I am telling you that the current 10-10 configuration (10 feet apart and 10 feet listening distance is too wide and too far. I will be moving to 8.5 -8.5 configuration as I feel it is more suitable.  No matter how large the room is I feel more comfortable with shaping Sound in a small area. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 152
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 157
Post ID: 23285
Reply to: 23284
Measured from?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I will be moving to 8.5 -8.5 configuration as I feel it is more suitable.  No matter how large the room is I feel more comfortable with shaping Sound in a small area. 


Romy, is this 8.5 feet measured from the drivers?  So MF S2's are 8.5 feet apart and the listening chair is 8.5 feet from the drivers.  Or are you measuring this from somewhere else.

The plan for my Macondo installation is very similar to these dimensions, so I am particularly interested from where you make these measurements.
07-07-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 158
Post ID: 23286
Reply to: 23285
The Listening Room July 7
In my current configuration I have 11-11-3 measuring from tweeters. First number is the distance between speakers, second is listening distance and the third is the distance from the shudder where the horn axis are pointing out. This is not a good configuration in my view. The speakers use too much toeing and with the type of the horns I use (Tratrix) I think the last number should be around 1.  
 
In my case as you see in the image below I have 120” screen dropping between the speakers that made me to position the speakers too wide. I can’t toping them toward the X-X-1 configuration because then I have the center image become too deep and not realistic. So I need to move the speaker closer to each other and to sit closer. I need to reposition the screen that would let me to move the speakers closer and to set 9-9-1 configuration or slightly below. 

Room-July7.jpg 

Frankly I did not do a lot of critical positioning of my playback. We move in this hour in the very end of June last year. It took July to unpack and in August we got hit by twins. Honestly, I do not do too much listening since then. I keep waiting then the kids grow up a bit and I am sure I will be back with my listening session and with my higher demands to the sound I am getting.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-08-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 152
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 159
Post ID: 23287
Reply to: 23286
8' all around
Many thanks Romy, that was just the info for which I was hoping. 

You could say that Macondo is a base 8 audio system:  8' tall, 8' apart and 8' listening distance.

Regards,

Anthony

EDIT:  The dual 15" midbass boxes look neat and are smaller than I would have expected.
07-08-2017 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,341
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 160
Post ID: 23288
Reply to: 23287
Some comments...
I think 8-8-1 will be very good configuration all together. Make sure it stays sufficiently far from back wall. Point the axis toward to your shoulder and I think it would be fine setting. Turn off tweeters and Fundamentals channel and set right balance between MF output and upper bass output. You might use RTA but it will not be very useful for you in beginning and you need calibrate RTA for your speakers and it will take for a while.  It will be approximately 1 dB freedom for MF channel where it still be “flat” and you will need to find right configuration. Playing with axis targeting and MF attenuation you will need to find right balance all together and right amount of “strings bite”. You will initially most likely will go for a bit harder “strings bite” as it defines “quality” in most of audio. As time goes by you might want to get more lush and soft sound from you and to get harshness only when musicians and music is called to it. The subject of right “strings bite” is very complicated and I can write a whole book about it. In most of the systems it is also is contingent upon many factors. Macondo has some own factors as well. The acoustic treatment of the room, electricity quality, the axis direction and many other factors are common. In Macondo, specifically will be the selection and operation mode of the output tube for MF, the type of OPT, the inductance of the MF attenuator, the type of the MF tube loading, the type of the diaphragms is use with S2 driver, the listening distance and many other factors. 
 
Regarding the dual 15" midbass boxes.  They are $45 each, from eBay by the companies that do chip boxed for car audio. I ordered them when kid where small, did not sleep at night and I had no time to deal with it. The point of the experiment was to see if a pair of Vitavox 15 drivers per channel will be able to have a reference output to match the rest of Macondo. The experiment showed that it is truly perfect in dB sense. In term of overall sound, it is a bit more complicated. I very much like upper and lower region of my new midbass channels but I do not like the lower end. It is not bad lower bass but make the lower octave to sound the same in all music. It is not as bad as a typical subwoofer but it is not as different as I am accustomed. Also, it is very much not integrateable with my ULF channels. The ULF does add a lot to the sound but at the same time makes lover bass even worse. 
 
Now, it is easy to blame undersized midbass boxed for the “tightness” that I experience and it is not dificalt to get larger boxes and better made. The reality is different and it might be many other factors screw with my lower bass, not only the boxes. To name a few: the Vitavox 15 drivers might not be a right choice foe sealed topology, the damping of the boxed was wrong type for the drivers I use, the Milq LF channel is not properly loaded by dual Vitavox etc etc etc… 
 
To test everything and to find right solution need time and I just do not have it. For now, I use the car audio boozes for $45 and am glad that they give me right dB output. As time goes by I will experiment with it more and will find a better solution. I am not completely abandon the idea to have a midbass how made in there…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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