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  »  New  “A” sound from “B” system?..  Re: “A” sound from “B” system?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     13  108634  05-22-2005
  »  New  Rightsizing from extreme systems......  It is Hot! The summer playback...  Audio Discussions  Forum     7  56382  06-17-2006
  »  New  Monitors: Wishful thinking..  Digital crossover...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  83989  07-23-2006
  »  New  Cool running AB amplifier.. with good sound...  How about more current integrateds?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     11  86228  07-25-2006
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  59464  11-08-2007
  »  New  The loudspeakers for a powerful SET..  Mission Accomplished?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     48  320752  04-11-2008
  »  New  Macondo’s MiniMe or about Pilot Acoustic Systems..  Injection Pilot?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     213  1571440  09-03-2008
  »  New  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors..  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  11307  03-16-2011
12-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 81
Post ID: 12393
Reply to: 12391
Spare the Druids!
fiogf49gjkf0d
LOL!Flawed as they are, my Druids deserve a better fate than being reduced to a crisp by a Crown DC 300.The best they can hope for is a Harman Kardan "high current" 120W receiver ; )
12-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 82
Post ID: 12400
Reply to: 12393
Soundstage measurements
fiogf49gjkf0d
if anyone cares, here are old measurements from soundstage for the zu druids


12-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 83
Post ID: 12401
Reply to: 12393
Measurements
fiogf49gjkf0d
I tried to attach measurements, but 80KB is too big for the site.

I will describe -- impedence at 50 at 20Hz and 200Hz. Impedence at 8 at 50 Hz (big saddle between two very high spikes). after that it varies between 18 and 8 with a dip at 500 and a swell at 4K.
12-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 156
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 84
Post ID: 12402
Reply to: 12388
Preventing MWL
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts - I really appreciate this.

I'm trying to understand your idea of Severe Mass Deficiency Syndrome. How tightly correlated is this to a speaker's impedance curve? The Druids don't seem to dip below 8R anywhere...
 Romy the Cat wrote:
... let to have an attenuator that would moderate output impedance let say from 5R to minis 1R.
A couple of questions:

1. According to its manual, the Siegfried is a zero-feedback design and has a typical output impedance of 1.5R (measured at 1 amp, 60 Hz). Is this then close enough to your estimated 1.25-1.3R for this attenuator to be unnecessary?

2. If you still feel that it might be a worthwhile endeavour, what do you think is the best way of fine-tuning the output impedance precisely? Apologies in advance if there is an obvious answer to this. (BTW, I share your aversion to soldering irons - is there any way that this could be avoided?)

Mani.

12-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 156
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 85
Post ID: 12403
Reply to: 12401
SMDS and impedance
fiogf49gjkf0d

zanon, our posts 'crossed'...

Mani.

12-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,681
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 86
Post ID: 12404
Reply to: 12402
The last drops from those poor Druids?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 manisandher wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts - I really appreciate this.

I'm trying to understand your idea of Severe Mass Deficiency Syndrome. How tightly correlated is this to a speaker's impedance curve? The Druids don't seem to dip below 8R anywhere...

When I said that Volume included a port it was what I meant – the speaker's impedance is included into the Volume Reactance.

 manisandher wrote:

1. According to its manual, the Siegfried is a zero-feedback design and has a typical output impedance of 1.5R (measured at 1 amp, 60 Hz). Is this then close enough to your estimated 1.25-1.3R for this attenuator to be unnecessary?

You think about absolute number but I think about relevant number. The point is that your amp might have 1.5R but what if you need 1.42R? What option you have: to change transformer ratio? to change plate current? It all will change the impedance right along with TTH characteristic. How about if you need 6.1R or .04 R You will not be able to get those numbers with change of loading without a severs change of sound.

 manisandher wrote:
If you still feel that it might be a worthwhile endeavour, what do you think is the best way of fine-tuning the output impedance precisely? Apologies in advance if there is an obvious answer to this. (BTW, I share your aversion to soldering irons - is there any way that this could be avoided?)

I do not know, I am not an amplifier designer. Running global voltage negative feedback would drive impedance down to a degree and it is possible to design an amp that would be operating more or less stable and identical with different depth of feedback. If you ask me: If is worth it then I would say “no”. In the best case you still will have the best Druids bass. Does the Druids best bass worth build/modify an amp to drive it? I do not think so. It is much more cost per action beneficial would be to get a separate LF section and do not push the last drops from those poor Druids.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 87
Post ID: 12405
Reply to: 12403
Headphone reference
fiogf49gjkf0d
No worries Mani.

Interestingly enough, my "reference" is also headphones. They take you in a very different direction than speakers, which is maybe why we both have druids.
12-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,681
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 88
Post ID: 12406
Reply to: 12405
Headphones shall not take to different direction
fiogf49gjkf0d
Headphones shall not take to different direction. In fact it shall not be a lot of changes in sound when your take your headphones off and begin to listen your speakers. Speakers shall be MUCH more advised in imaging and spaceial department but good speakers and good headphones usually deliver the very same type of sound. 

THe Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 89
Post ID: 12408
Reply to: 12406
Headphone vs Speakers
fiogf49gjkf0d
You may be even more right than you know. Going up the Grado line in $$$ you get more and More and MORE HF.: P
12-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Ciampa
Lausanne, Suisse
Posts 6
Joined on 12-08-2009

Post #: 90
Post ID: 12451
Reply to: 2501
Merlin TSM
fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm rather curious to listen to these:

http://www.merlinmusic.com/tsm.htm

Experience anybody ?

Rgds

Ciampa.
12-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 91
Post ID: 12568
Reply to: 12231
Zu Credenza with sub?
fiogf49gjkf0d
God, I hate to bring this up as it seems you have given up on your quest for better monitors.

Maybe I missed a thread somewhere, but reading over earlier posts you were looking for
- high efficiency
- tone
- dynamics
- sealed design

Zu Credenzas have same MF and tweeter as Zu Druids, but are in a sealed box. Claim high efficiency, the treat their drivers for tone etc. etc. May be worth seeing if they can pair with stereo subs to get your system.

But, if you have heard druids and high-pass them, I think you have Credenzas without subs. You solve the problem with LF, but still have that HF gap between super tweeter and top of MF driver.
01-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 92
Post ID: 12598
Reply to: 12568
Tyler Acoustics, monitor with separate LF
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/tyleracoustics_minimonitor_system.htm

Never heard it, but it has a separate LF section.
01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 156
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 93
Post ID: 12682
Reply to: 12264
Different Strokes...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Don't worry about selling stuff you "don't like".  To another Moron® it might be the Legendary Stuff of Dreams.  Be honest about what it is; simply hold your current opinion.
I've just sold my Druids (took a £500 hit on what I paid for them a year ago, but hey?) to a nice guy who was very sure of the sound he was after. It's funny, but he already has a pair... and loves them! Apparently, he has them placed right in the corners of his room and says they work best there.

In any event, I was almost embarassed demonstating them to him. To me, they sounded awful - no real bass at all (using my 5W SET) and a horrid edginess in the mids. 'Grey' as hell - no colour whatsoever. But he didn't seem at all phased.

Conversely, he didn't care for my SL600s driven by my Rotel. I agreed with him to a point that the sound was(is) too bright, but hell, in my opinion still a damn sight better than what we'd just heard coming out of the Druids.

So, the search goes on... To replicate the sound I get from AKG K-1000 headphones driven a Berning Siegfried.

Tomorrow, I will be auditioning a pair of BD Design 'Swing' speakers (http://www.bd-design.nl) - I just happen to be working in Holland on Thursday and thought I'd take a listen whilst I was there. Hardly 'monitors', I know, but I thought I'd just mention it...

Mani.
01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,681
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 94
Post ID: 12683
Reply to: 12682
The beter monitors?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am not so impressed bout BD Design speakers. I truly hated the BMS drivers that they use and I truly hate the network of the blabbering cretins that BD Design built around itself. Any single critical mentioning of BD Design lead to a sudden showing up an army of “BD Design enthusiasts” who begin to run all over you with their idiotic drooling about BD Design. Of course I do not state that BD Design owner is idiot but I have seen quite many very specific idiots and the all have a common denominator – the PRIDE of ownership of BD Design. Ironically I do not think that the guy who own BD Design is a fool and I think that he knows the true values of this idiotic followers. However, he is in the business and those Audio- Morons are his commodities - so, he shepherd those stupid sheep….

Post how do you find the sound “Swing”.  I do not know what those industry whores do nowadays with auditions. Here in US I know distributors of very popular loudspeakers who permit an addition only under defined condition that no negative comments will be expressed publicly. Furthermore I know distributors/dealers who extend additional 10% discount if after the buy the new owner post glorious feedback about the product at the specific sites. I know the distributors/dealers who give extras 10% -15% if you agree to keep the bought model until the nest model get introduced. I mean: this is how the dirt build the “public opinion” noondays…

Anyhow, it is good that you let the Druids to go – they were dead loudspeakers. I have a local audio guy who is straggling with Druids, even though the loudspeakers is not the problem of his but he intend do not change loudspeakers for years to come.  I was looking at his frustrations with Druids and I suggested him to let them go until the hype is up.  I pitched to him Dunlavy CS-III or Altec 19 as the compromised for the same price. Neither Dunlavy nor Altec are awfully good themselves but in compact package and for $1.5K they are fine monitors – much better then the contemporary crap with the price tag of 20x-50x time more. In fact if I were not as stupid as I was then instead of stating my MiniMe project I better got the Dunlavy III, perhaps put in there so other drivers and it would be it… The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,224
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 95
Post ID: 12685
Reply to: 12682
Buyers, Sellers and Predictable Outcomes
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mani, sorry, but I forget if you mentioned very specific size limitations.  I have enjoyed in spates but am generally wary of "big sound from small boxes", as this invariably wears thin, eventually requiring not only a tiring stretch of the imagination but also, often, more power than anticipated, which gets expensive in acceptable amps.  Looking at longer term, amp matching is much easier and cheaper if one plans everything around mid-ish power.  From memory, there are some fairly efficient "mid-field" monitors that might be advantageously adapted for a closer listening seat, if space remains a concern.  I have mentioned before the old (and hard-to-find...) Tannoy 10" MFMs, not to suggest a particular marque, rather to suggest a generic gambit you might find less difficult than swapping drivers (and networks...) in "otherwise-OK" speakers.

I think of shopping as a necessary evil, and I suppose we all have our ways of going about this most unsavory aspect of the hi-fi.  While I might buy something I've somehow targeted without listening, I would never recommend this practice, for too many reasons to list.  Nothing is more of a time-and-money-eating crap-shoot than buying speakers, but it might be possible to narrow the field with generic catagories.  For instance, I happen to think of the non-paper cone speakers as one-trick ponies, except maybe a very few of the British hydro-carbon-ish/paper-ish cones are actually not bad, given SPL restraints and enough of the right kind of power.  I will also say that the horn-loaded "FR" drivers I have heard were quite colored and also tone-challenged and rather "fuzzy" compared to direct-radiator versions of the same drivers, albeit I have not, myself, worked to exhaust the loaded implementations in that vein.  Whatever; it's got to be a good idea to get and retain some focus to avoid early or ultimate exhaustion via the suicidal "shotgun approach".

One of the real pissers with retail shopping is that it is usually impossible to properly contextualize anything in the proffered setting.  Because of this, I have long preferred hearing a "targeted" component in "mid-fi" systems rather than "high-end" systems.  And while it might defy "common sense", this is especially true for cartridges and speakers.  After all, when shopping, one actually wants to hear and evaluate the targeted component, itself.

Sure, any good salesperson knows how best to sell his product.  But it's up to the buyer to do his own evaluations.

Good luck,
Paul S
01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 96
Post ID: 12689
Reply to: 12682
Live and learn
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mani:

I'm sorry you did not found the Druids livable, and even more sorry at the #500 hit. Chalk it up to experience. I bought my Druids for only a little more.

Your 5W SET is absolutely the wrong amp for the speaker, although as others have mentioned, other amps will only take you so far.

I'm also not surprised that your new buyer thought your SL600s were too bright. Druids have very rolled off HF.
01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,681
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 97
Post ID: 12690
Reply to: 12689
The SL600 “brightness”
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zanon wrote:
I'm also not surprised that your new buyer thought your SL600s were too bright. Druids have very rolled off HF.
Yes, the comment that SL600 is too bright is not very accurate. The SL600, at least with copper tweeter are magnificently roll-off speakers. What is VERY interesting with SL600 is that the “brightness” of the bright might be to a degree regulated by the proximity of the speaker to floor. It is not about being on or off from axis but the actual proximity to floor. I have no explanation for the phenomena….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 98
Post ID: 12692
Reply to: 12690
Dome tweeters and brightness in SL600
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is a dome tweeter, so I can see how proximity to the floor might have some impact in that at least you have HF hitting the floor. How ti regulates brightness is mysterious to me as well.

My personal hamster speakers (for NPR vocals) simple mono Tivoli table radio. Dramatic change of bass as you move it to a stand (for laughs), to edge of table, or to middle of table. Middle of table is best, so maybe somebody engaged their brain when they were designed. I also like playing it for folks because it is sonorous, and makes voices syrupy. We have oldies station it does well with as well, and expectations are set so low classical is not bad. Rock/Pop actually sounds the worst.

btw. What problem does your Boston Druid friend have with his? Amps? (if you want to elaborate).
Page 5 of 5 (98 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  “A” sound from “B” system?..  Re: “A” sound from “B” system?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     13  108634  05-22-2005
  »  New  Rightsizing from extreme systems......  It is Hot! The summer playback...  Audio Discussions  Forum     7  56382  06-17-2006
  »  New  Monitors: Wishful thinking..  Digital crossover...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  83989  07-23-2006
  »  New  Cool running AB amplifier.. with good sound...  How about more current integrateds?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     11  86228  07-25-2006
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  59464  11-08-2007
  »  New  The loudspeakers for a powerful SET..  Mission Accomplished?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     48  320752  04-11-2008
  »  New  Macondo’s MiniMe or about Pilot Acoustic Systems..  Injection Pilot?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     213  1571440  09-03-2008
  »  New  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors..  Tannoy Red or Gold monitors...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  11307  03-16-2011
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