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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» New superlative horn build - ESD acoustic (93 posts, 5 pages)
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04-02-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #: 81
Post ID: 25346
Reply to: 25345
Regards
Very well then. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate, and sorry for not taking the chance. Although I would like to as an audiophile, my responsibility is to the company. I came here to explain things I deem necessary, and that I have done. My apologies if I misunderstood you somewhere. Now pardon my leave, for I have many other things to do. Good day.
04-02-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,635
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 82
Post ID: 25347
Reply to: 25346
Ok, take care...
Certainly we have different responsibility. I feel that my responsibility, as the multichannel horn-loading system field’s observer and commentator, is not let any company, any concert or any narrative to highjack the righteousness of “best speaker”. The definitiveness with which you and many other manufactures or DIYers talk about own creation and own ambitions does frequently insult me. Partially it is because I know how inaccurate you are in your righteousness projected to your true audio experience. And partially is because I know that true answers to the audio questions does not located in the field of audio. You are a young man and you might feel that an application of unapplied, superficial notions you have driven in your head makes the world spin but this is a mistake that you will rectify with time.  Ask you dad and he will explain you more on the subject. So, please, do build and sell you speakers, be successful and progress yourself and your customers in understanding of how sound might sound. But please, have some humility and do not act that you have “past” anything. People spent years or even whole lives in there things and still they fell that the filed is wide open. You, very much like me and anybody else out there are just very temporary riders of a much larger escalator, the escalator about which you, at your age and you listening experience, not really informed yet.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-02-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #: 83
Post ID: 25348
Reply to: 25338
Uh I see why I confused you
 jackydai wrote:
Well that was my father. We founded the company together - he invests, I researches, mostly. Bruce Edgar and Sam Saye taught me how to design, and we built our first prototype system in California.
I took it for another video. Yes the Munich report one was me. I was thinking about that youTube video of my dad playing music for the reporter on RMAF.
04-02-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018

Post #: 84
Post ID: 25349
Reply to: 25347
Thanks
Thank you for giving advice as an elder, and I respect that. I will introspect myself and keep being humble.
04-04-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,635
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 85
Post ID: 25350
Reply to: 25332
I do not know about that.
 
 rowuk wrote:
What can we expect from a 6 figures system?

Rowuk, this is very interesting question and much more complex than you might think. The presumption is that if we look at 1/4 million dollars playback system then we should have out of box reputable sound. I very much challenge that presumption. A reputable Sound of a property of a listener’s own self-development and no external investment or presuemed playback quality can furnish it to a person. A guy from Germany in my listening room a few months ago did experience Sound that might be considered reputable and his reaction was a good illustration of what I say: he was exposed to a result to wish he was not ready yet. If so, then what we expect from a super expensive playback system or in this case: an expensive acoustic system.
Here is what I feel: a 6 figures system should take care about something that 5 figures system could not. It is as simple as it but it is very complex at the same time. The people who design 6 figures systems should (in theory) recognize the complexity of problems and divert expense to address the complexity. Not to build up expense to address some kind of imaginary objectives or to patronize some kind marketing BS but demonstrate advance understanding of the problems and  provide the objectively “expensive” solutions to delivery user satisfaction regarding the complex problems.  I do feel that if a company does it then they can claim exclusive pricing. 
 
The case to point: Wilson Audio. Discard the smaller Wilsons, then are not good but if you look at the largest Wilson then you will see that somehow they solved a few typical problem of most of box loudspeakers (compression for instance). In my view they can charge 6 figures as they recognize the problem and did spent very tangible efforts to address the problem. 
 
Another care to point: The current company of the thread ESD acoustic. I do not feel that what they do is 6 figures system even if they show to you that all of this is very expensive to make.  The Jacky presentation at the last page is very nice, not that I agree with everything but it is a good buttering up of yourself and perspective customers why the ESD should be good and why it should be expensive. What is missing from Jacky presentation is the user benefits and statement that they went into complexity to care about user benefits. What ESD did was investment into manufacturing that they took as is with no nurturing and care about users. In my view the care about end users is the ONLY thing worth to pay more or whatever is asked to be paid.
   
When Avantgarde introduced their first horn in 1999 they set their most expensive Trio system to be I believe $35K, which skimming the BS mark ups was under 20K retail. That was pretty much how it should cost then because horns is very contrary to popular believe are not expensive acoustic system to make. Avantgarde invested very little into user benefit and they do not be paid more then what it was. ESD did so far kind of the same. They invented a myth of expense and quality but they did not go to complexity of user benefit and I do not need to hear the ESD installation to recognize it.
   
I do think that ESD MF driver is might be very interesting product. I have no idea if they market it separate and what the price might be. Still, should a system to be 6 figures of it has a potentially interesting MF drivers?



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-04-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 283
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 86
Post ID: 25351
Reply to: 25350
Catalog of benefits?
If we buy a Rolls Royce, a Ferrari, a Bentley, the manufacturer does not give us a driving course, but they are there when we have problems on the road. They even know what the problems are in advance. They have a towing service. Should the 6 figures system talk to us and the manufacturer?
In the case of Ferrari, not everyone is even allowed to buy a new one. Just imagine a speaker manufacturer that had similar exclusivity.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
04-04-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,635
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 87
Post ID: 25352
Reply to: 25351
Do not blame players blame the game.
Rowuk, your association is spot on but there is catch in here. The audio manufactures have no language or expertise to engage their user with explanations of actual or presumed benefits that 6 figures system can do. If you are some kind of let say musician and somebody offer you to buy a vintage clarinet for instance then you for sure will be taken by the history of this woodwind and hear the story how some kind a dynasty of Czech players over the 200 year have been moisturizing this clarinet with the very special saliva produced by the beautiful water that region is famous for. Still, pay attention the dealer that sell this vintage clarinet value is so high because the unique golden tone of the instrument not because the original Budweiser sores water in there. The marketing mambo-jumbo are very secondary and the first is the proof that is in a pudding. The audio manufactures very seldom sell pudding, they sell promises shat vanilla from which the pudding was made was made from flowers that grew in orchids located over 20K feet over see level…. So, I see very seldom audio manufactures, even good one, able to talk about own products intelligently. Do not blame players blame the game.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 166
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 88
Post ID: 25353
Reply to: 25352
In what world do you guys live ?
Out of a tiny, tiny minority of people who are into better than standard home sound reproduction only 1% would benefit from what is written on this site. It would be actually suicidal to any manufacturer to follow Romy's axioms , aesthetics and solutions and I'm not surprised that none follows . 99% of "audiophiles" willing to spend real resources  are like Josh. He is actually a bright spot in this group since the rest is even less interesting. I have absolutely highest respect to Romy that he is willing to engage in mostly useless activity. Carry on !
04-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 283
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 89
Post ID: 25354
Reply to: 25353
A better world
 Wojtek wrote:
Out of a tiny, tiny minority of people who are into better than standard home sound reproduction only 1% would benefit from what is written on this site. It would be actually suicidal to any manufacturer to follow Romy's axioms , aesthetics and solutions and I'm not surprised that none follows . 99% of "audiophiles" willing to spend real resources  are like Josh. He is actually a bright spot in this group since the rest is even less interesting. I have absolutely highest respect to Romy that he is willing to engage in mostly useless activity. Carry on !
In many other disciplines, passion with direction is rewarded. I disagree with the 1%. I would guess that 20 - 30% have the intellectual and emotional capacity.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
04-07-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,205
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 90
Post ID: 25355
Reply to: 25354
Followers vs. Drifters vs. "Experts"
Nothing wrong with following along or "copying" "good ideas", as long as the seeker already has an internal "reference" that serves as a sort of navigation system or gyroscope that allows for inevitable "gaps" and differences of one stripe or another.  The real "problem", again, is that at some point it becomes pretty lonely, at least in terms of what actually "works" in a given situation.  By this I do not mean to ignore or impugn audio fellowship, rather I mean to say, at "the level of this site" people have either "been there and done that" or they must simply (somehow) grasp that "finding the best stuff" is relative -  and personal  -  enough to just about make the notion laughable. And when that happens, the tether to the "industry" is loosed and the seeker is pretty much on his/her own.

Back up the thread, a while back, I remember listening to the ESD presentation and recognizing immediately that the music selection alone means that anything "good" about the system is an accident, not just despite the "tech talk" but also because of the way they attempt to "build on it", to "make a case" for their system that way.  Well, make some significant Music with the system, and let's reverse engineer it from there. Basically, feel free to be "wrong" if you get great results, but prepare for skepticism if the theories don't produce great results. Sure, someone can insist that bad results are good (just listen to Trump...); but good luck with that at this particular website.


Paul S
04-08-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 283
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 91
Post ID: 25356
Reply to: 25355
Hope?
For all practical purposes, ESD has“proper“ horns and apparently decent drivers. Thus, we have a chance with this collection of bits to have some decent sonic results. Now we just need a process, perhaps the most difficult part.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
04-08-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,635
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 92
Post ID: 25357
Reply to: 25356
Well, time will show...
 rowuk wrote:
For all practical purposes, ESD has“proper“ horns and apparently decent drivers. Thus, we have a chance with this collection of bits to have some decent sonic results. Now we just need a process, perhaps the most difficult part.

Well, the “better” ingredients are not necessary an assurance of any kind “better” or better to say advanced result. I feel that advanced thinking is typically bring better results and so far I do not see in what ESD does any advanced thinking. Pay attention to the presentation that ESD did in Munich, the video is imbedded at this thread a pages or two ago. I think is was very good presentation and it very much exposed what is in the head of the guys who are responsible for what ESD. They do not saying wrong things in that presentation, although there are some things that I would very much disagree, which is fine. The main fallacy in that all tougher good presentation was a presupposition that mindless accumulation of better ingredients is enough to make “best” speaker. First all of that ESD does are not “best” ingredients but the most important is that the whole presupposition is fundamentally faulty. The “best” speaker is made by administration of very fine and very sensitive aspects of sound repudiation, including very subjective and very hard to understand logically nuances, opening your mind and to use tangible and non-abstract methods to navigate own decisions.  Of cause it includes better ingredients and properly applies science but as one of my old friend told me in 90s: if you measurements do not directly correlate with you listening experience then you do not measure right things. 
 
The case to point are some small Japanese boutique shops. The Japanese, some of them, have own relationship with “labor” and they are willing to spend literally a life time to polish some kind of obscure knob and to experience some bizarre pride that that fucking knob is polished to insane degree of perfection. As the result sometimes you can meet some very odd examples of very none-commercial Japanese audio that define all rule of common sense and that sound absolutely stunning. Efforts, perseverance, honesty and the labor of love is the key in my view. 
 
ESD is juts at the very beginning of the journey. They got drivers with some good ideas and only God knows how they sound. Thiers horns are OK, the exponential slowing horns opening with cut off frequency is an old ide and generally not bad but it did not lead them from withdrawing horns from HF. And of cause the main ingredient of ESD controversy: the last LF channels. There was so many people who wasted time and money with last mid-bass horn and stiff drivers, in my mind none of people who do it have ears… 
 
Anyhow, my bitching about ESD is that whatever they do they present as so kind of “last” statement in horns thinking but a very superficial analyses of the thinking they invested into their current design indicate that they are not forerunner of horns thinking of any kind. I feel that Jeffery Jackson for instance is much more suited for this role…



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-13-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 246
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 93
Post ID: 25359
Reply to: 25357
Holy trinity
Merely the horn-loaded combination of an S2 and a Fane 8M, driven by a full range Melquiades, is a world away from any ordinary speaker. It requires musical intelligence to arrive at that conclusion in the first place, iterating over a million possible combinations, but it ought to be obvious on hearing it now to anyone of modest musical sensibility and some exposure to live orchestral performance. A manufacturer could begin his journey a few thousand feet above everyone else's destination, if he actually bothered to listen. 
Page 5 of 5 (93 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5
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