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  »  New  BiDat: One more output..  Output Quandry...  Didital Things  Forum     5  34207  06-01-2005
  »  New  A littlie D-War: Bidat vs. Lavry Gold..  RE: the "New" DAC...  Didital Things  Forum     13  135273  12-18-2005
  »  New  Any good sounding AES/EBU interfaces out there?..  Crossing the Same River Twice...  Didital Things  Forum     40  231485  09-17-2007
  »  New  Recording options: Pacific Microsonics vs. Lavry Gold...  Pacific Microsonics vs. Lavry Gold in D/A mode....  Didital Things  Forum     24  183150  09-27-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  The Sound Obsessive List of DACs/Chips...  Didital Things  Forum     23  141131  09-28-2007
  »  New  DA architecture: True Multibit vs. anything else...  If it might…....  Didital Things  Forum     17  121827  12-09-2007
  »  New  The Lavry Gold DA924 ++..  A new Lavry Gold?...  Didital Things  Forum     25  199661  03-28-2008
08-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 14323
Reply to: 6604
The last Bidat Upgrade - above 140Hz
fiogf49gjkf0d
While I was moving in to my new home John Wight undertook my Bidat for his new update.  Up to now I did not have playback properly performing but the last 2-3 weeks I feel that my playback is back. Again, whatever I lien now has only upperbass horn at the bottom and there is nothing under 140Hz .

So, I give some listening to the New Bidat. It is very easy for me to judge about performance of Bidat as it sits in system in with two other DACs and I know with very high degree of precision the sonic delta between all my DACs.

As it appears to me the updated Bidat has no sonic difference between Bidat before and Bidat after as all deltas that I expected was there. At least it I my observation above 140Hz. This is a good sign so far as I was afraid that the changes might impact Bidat’s upper range, something that I have absolutely no problems with. I can’t wait to try Bidat a full-range.

The interesting past in this story that Bidat this time came with own set of digital and analog cables. That will be a separate dedicated subject when I have a full-range playback back.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-22-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 42
Post ID: 15468
Reply to: 14323
Bidat with new midbass and proper performing purepower
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
 My Bidat being extremely sensitive to incoming electricity and now with Purepower in my mix I am getting to know my Bidat in a new light. I did think I had a grasp of what the Bidat could and couldn't do but feeding it through Purepower it has grown on it's previous strengths but added others. The space and imaging that is it's hallmarks are greatly expanded. A little confusion and smearing in complex passages is completely gone now. All sounds tangent independently now and can be followed as such but also in bigger space. It is wonderfull. It was my secondary dac for awhile but not anymore.

 Now that your midbass horns are dialed in and the electricity is back for you like pre-move days have you any observations on sub 140hz performance of your Bidat since latest power supply modifications by John? Does it approach the Lavry bass in particular? Do you still confirm that above 140hz it is still as was since your electricity is sorted now?
01-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 15469
Reply to: 15468
Not only your Bidat is sensitive to incoming electricity
fiogf49gjkf0d
 miab wrote:
Romy, My Bidat being extremely sensitive to incoming electricity and now with Purepower in my mix I am getting to know my Bidat in a new light. I did think I had a grasp of what the Bidat could and couldn't do but feeding it through Purepower it has grown on it's previous strengths but added others. The space and imaging that is it's hallmarks are greatly expanded. A little confusion and smearing in complex passages is completely gone now. All sounds tangent independently now and can be followed as such but also in bigger space. It is wonderfull. It was my secondary dac for awhile but not anymore.

Bidat always was supper sensitive to electricity. I had an army of small power devises before I used PP2000 and used those small devises to a different degree of success with Bidat. The front end is usually is more sensitive to electricity then power amps.
 miab wrote:
Now that your midbass horns are dialed in and the electricity is back for you like pre-move days have you any observations on sub 140hz performance of your Bidat since latest power supply modifications by John? Does it approach the Lavry bass in particular? Do you still confirm that above 140hz it is still as was since your electricity is sorted now?

As I said above, the last update did not do much in term of sound and the same difference that I remember Bidat had with Lavry I feel that same difference persists now. Electricity or midbass horns have nothing to do with it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 44
Post ID: 15550
Reply to: 6608
Bidat and bit depth
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
 You have mentioned somewhere in the Bidat-Lavry thread about the Bidat being a 20 bit dac but throws out 4 bits (quote below). But, you have also stated that you play 20/44.1 files from your pc set-up into the Bidat and more specifically to compare the Lavry and Bidat. I am now into recording files at higher rates and bit depth but will keep second copies to play through the Bidat. I'm specifically taking 24/96 and resampling to 20/48 which the Bidat plays fine. Can I ask where or how you came upon this info about the Bidat tossing the 4 bits internally?

"Among the disadvantages I would name /

2) 20 Bit and 44 kHz maximum. It reads 20 bit but it toss the 4 bit internally and in reality it posses 16Bit."

02-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 15552
Reply to: 15550
Bidat and bits.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 miab wrote:
Romy,
 You have mentioned somewhere in the Bidat-Lavry thread about the Bidat being a 20 bit dac but throws out 4 bits (quote below). But, you have also stated that you play 20/44.1 files from your pc set-up into the Bidat and more specifically to compare the Lavry and Bidat. I am now into recording files at higher rates and bit depth but will keep second copies to play through the Bidat. I'm specifically taking 24/96 and resampling to 20/48 which the Bidat plays fine. Can I ask where or how you came upon this info about the Bidat tossing the 4 bits internally?
"Among the disadvantages I would name /

2) 20 Bit and 44 kHz maximum. It reads 20 bit but it toss the 4 bit internally and in reality it posses 16Bit."


Miab, first of all it was not “posses” but “process”, I need to add it to the list of my epistolary treasures. Bidat uses 16Bit chips inside, so it is not the question what it process (it will not process more than 16 bit) but what it will be able to lock. Bidat use TDA1547 that is 20 bit chip but from what I recall the conversations with people who know how Bidat works they expanded to me that it has only 16 bit useful. Then I was informed that many 16 DAC in past in reality were 12-14 bit DACs…. The stream acquisition part of DAC is a different thing – it is about what kind stream DAC can read, not process but to read, or to lock. Bidat lock 18 and 20 bit just fine. I never tried 48kHz feed and I am VERY surprised that you report that Bidat read it. To the best of my knowledge Bidat has no 48K clock, how the hell it read it? Well, it might have VERY wide window bandwidth for locking and it might lock your 48K stream with 44K clock but you will have music played slower then it intend to be. Try to play 88K with 44K clock - you will see the effect.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 46
Post ID: 15554
Reply to: 15552
Bits and my wits
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes the Bidat does lock 48khz very well and so does the Idat-m. Something even more suprising and coming from someone that knows these dacs very well is that on a few samples of Bidat they even lock at 96khz! Alas I am not so lucky. Mine is 44.1 and 48 only. I downsamle 88.2 to 44.1 and 96 to 48 for simplicity of computer processing and the elimination of any potential issue's. 
 
About bits. The datasheet for TDA1547 clearly states 108db of dynamic range for this chip which would be in line with a 18 bit dac. A 20 bit dac should in theory be capable of 120db. I'm not sure what to make of this. I have played the same tracks at both 16 bit and 20 bit and at this time I believe the 20 bit to have the slightest of advantages. I must admit that I might not be able to tell in blind testing at this point. 48khz vs 44.1khz is easy to tell though.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/TDA1547.pdf
02-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 15555
Reply to: 15554
The ultra wide PLL?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 miab wrote:
Yes the Bidat does lock 48khz very well and so does the Idat-m. Something even more suprising and coming from someone that knows these dacs very well is that on a few samples of Bidat they even lock at 96khz! Alas I am not so lucky. Mine is 44.1 and 48 only. I downsamle 88.2 to 44.1 and 96 to 48 for simplicity of computer processing and the elimination of any potential issue's.
 
About bits. The datasheet for TDA1547 clearly states 108db of dynamic range for this chip which would be in line with a 18 bit dac. A 20 bit dac should in theory be capable of 120db. I'm not sure what to make of this. I have played the same tracks at both 16 bit and 20 bit and at this time I believe the 20 bit to have the slightest of advantages. I must admit that I might not be able to tell in blind testing at this point. 48khz vs 44.1khz is easy to tell though.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/TDA1547.pdf

Miab, Bidat specification said that it is 16 to 20 bit input.

http://www.museatex.com/bidat.htm

…but the last 4 bit of 20Bit signal will not be processed. I did research that subject in past myself and asked a few different people. I do not remember already who explained it to me, it might be John Write. You are in Canada, get in tosh with him and he can shade more light for you - ff Bidat has true 18Bit chip then it very much might toss out  not 4 upper bits out 20 bit stream as I said above but 2 bits. BTW, I do not recognize 18bit – it does not make sense to me. If you are in CD-compatible world then you at 16 bit and this is your threshold. If you jump out of the CD would and right-read uncompressed PCM files then why would you limit yourself with 18 or 20 bit – you for sure would go for full 24 bit. Well, there is no such a thing as true 24 bit or cause but why not to use the max bit depth is available? 

Also, as I said – I am very surprised that Bidat reads 48K. I was trying to feed Bidat with 88K and it does not like it. Bidat shall recognize the sampling rate in the incoming stream and PLL own clock to source. Usually the phase-locked loops in DACss are very narrow and this is why most of the DACs that do 44X and 48X has in fact two different clocks. Does Bidat has such a wide PLL window that is tune itself to 48K? That would be funny but since you report it I guess it is funny.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 81
Joined on 02-15-2009

Post #: 48
Post ID: 15645
Reply to: 15555
DPA dac
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Romy,Though not related to this topic much, but I want to know your opinion about discontinued DPA dacs. There is a chance for me to buya PDA 1024. For the moment I dont have a proper transport to test it and just use my digital radio's output. Thanks in advance for anycomment.
Regards,Armen
02-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 158
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 49
Post ID: 15646
Reply to: 15645
Cheap DVD player
fiogf49gjkf0d
Don't you have one which you could  use  as a transport to asses your DPA dac and make up your mind for yourself? (it may happen that you'll like cheap DVD player better sounding by itself) 90% of cretins who own Bidat do it only because  Romy prizes it,  in hope that some day they discover the reasons why he likes it so much. Not to mention that it suddenly became a good investment and a dac of this vintage instead $200-300 goes for $2k+
11-06-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 20243
Reply to: 6604
Two articles on the Bidat subject.
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.soundbsessive.com/room/?p=775

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue65/reader1.htm


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 454
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 51
Post ID: 20245
Reply to: 20243
Balanced DAC's
fiogf49gjkf0d
I did not have time to read the articles carefully, but:

"The IDAT’s D/A conversion stage is also unique."

"In the IDAT, two DACs per channel are used for each half of the balanced data signal instead of one."

...the very idea of balancing DAC's is not so unique--enough to search e.g. diyaudio.com to see that
the subject has been well discussed (albeit only technically, of course, not much sound-wise).
I have my own plans to assembly such a DAC one day (but witout resolution doubling like Meitner).

Cheers,
N-set



Cheers,
Jarek
11-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,147
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 52
Post ID: 20246
Reply to: 20243
Well...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, Romy.

Nice that the PF reviewer is so happy with his battery powered iDAT 44+. While I agree that it is a good DAC option, I have to add that we are still talking "digital".  With all problems of LPs and LP playback, IMO this is still the way to go, at least in terms of the "elements that make up Music", and the "resultant whole".  I would put HS, reel-to-reel "ahead" of LPs, but the entire tape thing is so fraught with problems - including extremely limited high-quality program - that it's become practically untenable.  As for streaming digital, what I have heard to date is not worthy of discussion in this context, despite the satisfaction derived from it by a given user.


Paul S
11-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 20247
Reply to: 20245
Read and think more.
fiogf49gjkf0d
N-set,

In think you need keep reading as the balancing DAC is not something that make Bidat unique. I pretty sure 24 year back it was but not now. The whole idea of IDAT is (among many other things) that it dynamically applies type of digital algorithm (I think it is filtration type) based upon the length of signal. Pretend that that your short and laud notes are rendered by one DAC but your legatos are by another. I know it does not sound too good but whatever it is it does works. Please do not send to diyaudio.com. They can discuss whatever they want and frankly I am not so inelegant to understand their digital discussion. There are however some subjects that I do know and what I see the same diyaudio people do their “discussions” in there then I can testify they are morons.

I do not make any claim about IDAT, neither need I to. I just presented information.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 454
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 54
Post ID: 20248
Reply to: 20247
1993!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, I have not fully seen the temporal context, it was 1993!! Chapeau!

I did read about the algorithm, I just reacted to the claimes about the balanced DAC being "also unique",
which I quoted in the first line.
Now I understand, it was in its time. Diyaudio? Well, when it comes to technical things, I see
a lot of good knowledge and experience there. Probably they should not have the word "audio"
in the name of the community, as they do not deal with audio per se, though.



Cheers,
Jarek
09-30-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 22020
Reply to: 6604
An interesting article....
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://www.soundbsessive.com/room/the-meitner-idat-da-interpolation-algorithm


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 3 of 3 (55 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  BiDat: One more output..  Output Quandry...  Didital Things  Forum     5  34207  06-01-2005
  »  New  A littlie D-War: Bidat vs. Lavry Gold..  RE: the "New" DAC...  Didital Things  Forum     13  135273  12-18-2005
  »  New  Any good sounding AES/EBU interfaces out there?..  Crossing the Same River Twice...  Didital Things  Forum     40  231485  09-17-2007
  »  New  Recording options: Pacific Microsonics vs. Lavry Gold...  Pacific Microsonics vs. Lavry Gold in D/A mode....  Didital Things  Forum     24  183150  09-27-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  The Sound Obsessive List of DACs/Chips...  Didital Things  Forum     23  141131  09-28-2007
  »  New  DA architecture: True Multibit vs. anything else...  If it might…....  Didital Things  Forum     17  121827  12-09-2007
  »  New  The Lavry Gold DA924 ++..  A new Lavry Gold?...  Didital Things  Forum     25  199661  03-28-2008
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